Over on Reddit, DoktorTeufel has a problem: he likes the ladies, but he doesn’t like the feminists. Unfortunately, some ladies are also feminists! And therein lies the danger. Naturally, he turns to the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit for help.
I’m just going to come out and say it: I will never knowingly enter into a romantic relationship with a feminist. I do have some female relatives and acquaintances who are feminists … and it’s not like they all wear signs that proclaim I’M A FEMINIST. (Some do.)
Aside from obvious telltales (feminist bumper stickers, etc.) or outright asking them “Are you a feminist?”, what are some discreet ways to ferret out a woman’s views on gender activism without creating an awkward situation? Feminism is a minefield topic, and I certainly wouldn’t broach the subject directly with a woman I’ve just started dating.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, he received much helpful advice. Celda broke it down for him:
You don’t really care whether she identifies as a feminist or not – you care what her views are.
For instance, does she feel women have the right to force men into parental obligations against their will?
Does she feel women are oppressed in Western society?
Does she think that women make less money than men for the same work?
If yes to these questions or similar, then you probably want to avoid her.
Exactly. Always avoid those with a basic grasp on reality. They’re the worst!
Naive1000 suggested looking for more subtle clues.
Ask their thoughts on “benevolent sexism” if they know what your talking about you likely have a feminist. Just to make sure go into male privilege, it’s the feminists’ most popular talking point. Let her talk about it then you can see what she’s really like. But, there are some women who call themselves feminists, but are really egalitarian: they just don’t know the term.
Memymineown also suggests a subtle approach, and holds out hope that some of the younger feminist girls can be won back to the path of righteousness:
Bring Men’s Rights issues into the conversation subtly. I was talking with my family about Justin Beiber and brought up the paternity charge and no rape charges filed against the woman.
That led into a discussion about how women aren’t punished for rape.
Just do things like that.
But you shouldn’t exclude all feminists. I would say that the vast majority are just girls(I do use that word on purpose) who have been lied to. Once you show them the real facts they will probably come around.
ThePigman, by contrast, urges DoktorTeufel to go for the jugular:
Why do you need to be discrete about it? Just ask her. If she is a member of the cult she will start screaming about the patriarchy, then her head will explode.
It’s true. Pretty much every conversation involving feminists quickly devolves into screaming about patriarchy. Heck, a feminist friend and I once screamed about patriarchy for five hours straight. We probably could have gone longer, but the manager at Applebee’s, evidently not a feminist, threw us out. Sometimes I start screaming about patriarchy when no one else is around, just to keep in practice.
Conversations with feminists pretty much all go like the conversation in the video below, only instead of a cat you need to picture a feminist, and instead of the word “no,” the word “patriarchy.” You can see how annoying that might get, and not just to Hitler.
Words are not data now! Can this go in the Book of Learnin’?
@Mral: nobody is saying there is some evil plot except you. We arr saying historical and contemporary systematic patterns of discrimination have resulted in statistical inequities based on sex and race.
And as somebody working ft at an academic job with s partner ditto i can say having a ft stayathome person working at what we might call suoport would make a difference
And while i am childfree, i get fucking tired of dickbiscuits kike you who seem to think no man has any need to be involved with caring for children and that it’s all eomen’s work except it’ s not real work.
Trolling dude.
Said by a man who only thinks of parenting in terms of Kodak type moments. I would lose my mind if I were home with kids all day, and I give a lot of credit to those who chose to do it.
From the article:
“Men, by contrast, often take on jobs that involve physical labor, outdoor work, overnight shifts and dangerous conditions (which is also why men suffer the overwhelming majority of injuries and deaths at the workplace). They put up with these unpleasant factors so that they can earn more. ”
Oh right, women hate physical labor and overnight shifts. That explains why all the nurses at the hospital are men.
Also how about the women who “put up with unpleasant factors” of their own and still earn less?
The study in Ullere’s article is interesting in that it only reaches conclusions for childless women and men in their mid- to late 20s. As if men with children don’t outearn their childless counterparts by 10-15% (and working women with children of course earn a substantial amount less than childless women). As if women don’t face age discrimination in their jobs more than men do. As if sex discrimination against rural women doesn’t matter. It’s certainly nice to see that women’s salaries are catching up, but I actually don’t think that the study concludes that women’s salaries have caught up.
And I don’t think, Mr. Al, that the wage gap is based on any nefarious or sinister plot — and I’ve never heard anyone describe it as such. I think the reasons for it are fairly complicated and varied, just as it’s always presented. It’s kind of weird that your main argument against the wage gap is that it exists but it doesn’t exist in the way that the imaginary feminists inside your head are telling you it does.
@ Nat I’m actually from the UK, and I looked out some poverty line information regarding the sexes.
http://www.poverty.org.uk/07/index.shtml
Women are a little bit, just a little bit, more likely to live in poverty. However the reasons for this are ironically that women live longer so are pensioners for longer, retire earlier so are pensioners etc, women get the majority of custody of children and make up most lone parent families and therefore are more vulnerable to poverty. Now I do not want pensioner or single parent poverty but neither is discrimination against women as men are equally as vulnerable when they are in these groups, they simply make up less of the groups due to dying earlier and not getting custody as often.
‘Women are a bit – but only a bit – more likely to live in low-income households than men: 21% compared with 19%. Excluding couples, single women are still a bit – but only a bit – more likely to live in low-income households than single men: 28% compared with 25%.
One reason for the gender gap is that is that both single female pensioners and female lone parents are both more likely to be in low-income households than their male equivalents. One reason why the gap is so small is that there is no such difference for working-age singles without children.
A second reason for the gender gap is that most lone parents – a group at high risk of being in low income – are women (most pensioners are also women but because pensioners have a similar risk of being in low income as working-age adults, this is not a reason for the gender gap). A second reason why the gap is so small is that most people live in couples.’
The thing I never get about “stay-at-home-mom is the cushiest job ever!” arguments–besides everything–is why don’t more women open home daycares?
A home daycare keeps you in your home, gives you real money that no one can take away on a whim (unlike “a husband keeping you around is basically money”), and the kids go home at night! And since taking care of children is never difficult or unpleasant work, it’s FREE MONEY! NO WORK!
When you understand why “home daycare owner” isn’t the world’s most popular career choice for women–and why it’s a career choice you’d never consider for yourself–you will understand much.
Sorry! I think I may have broken the board with an open tag. There is, of course, no way for me to fix it that i can see.
I don’t want to hear about how much better I have it at 8 bucks an hour, 25-30 hours a week, plus school. I’m sick of it. It makes me upset.
You know, for all your “I have a high IQ” nonsense, you’re a complete idiot. Unless some institute actually releases a study naming you personally, cut the crap. Studies are about trends, not individuals.
@Ullere
Also there’s the fact that women are less likely to build up the minimum contributions for pensions because of taking a career break.
I dislike talking about things in terms of ‘women getting custody’ when it remains a fact that the vast majority of divorces and breakups (90-95%) are uncontested and so rely on the parents working it out between themselves, not courts.
Appreciate you doing the research though.
Garsh, I know the favorite part of my day is coming home to do the laundry and the dishes, vacuum the house, change the sheets, clean the bathroom and kitchen, and dust and sanitize everything. And on the weekends, I CRY if I can’t get in my several hours of yardwork and gardening and miscellaneous homecare. Imagine how much more fun it would be if I had a tot to look after and play chauffeur to!
For what it’s worth, I think stay-at-home parenting is awesome, valuable, and hard-ass work. My hat’s off to all who parent in any capacity. But it’s absolute bullshit to say that taking care of one’s home and children 24 hours a day is on a day-to-day basis more rewarding and peaceful than any other job. Of course, a milk bottle machine repairman with no children should know.
Just have to say i am a bainbridge island ferry terminal reading and posting from my droid. I am going to MLA conference
Are we going to have to write a “things that aren’t about MRAL” list for you? Nobody has debated that you, personally, are probably making the same amount of money as your female co-workers in the same position. In fact, a few people have explicitly supported that idea.
Look, the job I was working a couple of years ago when I was 20 was very likely a lot better-paying than the job you’re working now, plus better hours, plus a less stressful work environment. I got my foot in the door for that kind of position a couple years earlier, because of SES privilege that I had that I would suspect you don’t (k-k-k-kyriarchy), and I’ve managed to parlay that into a series of other positions. But this isn’t about MRAL and Viscaria, this is about men and women in general.
On that note, if you’re a 2nd or 3rd year engineering student I heartily recommend you start looking for engineering summer student positions–I think in the states they usually call them internships? At any rate, if the system is the same as it is here you’ll make a lot more money and you’ll gain really valuable experience for when you graduate and start looking for full-time employment.
Wow, MRAL, you’re making $8.00 an hour? I had to have two bachelor’s degrees summa cum laude before I could get someone to pay me that much.
I mean, if we’re going to pretend “anecdote” is synonymous with “data”….
Ullere:
Why don’t you take your own advice?
Primus: Seriously. I have yet to see you admit to the possibility of personal error/misinterpretation of the facts?
Secundus: What have you by by way of substantiation that your stats are from sources without a vested interest? Because the WSJ had a vested interest. The editorial position of that paper is that anything which makes it possible for an employer to reduce any wage is a good thing.
Tertius: The use of ad hominem (saying that hellkell, et alia, aren’t possessed of facts, or argument, nor even actual opinions, but merely engaging in echo chamber responses because “some feminist has been challenged), is doing you no good turn.
From past observation, I have little faith in your good faith, and this little round of tripping through the daisies of MRM talking point 362-G, sub-paragraph (b) isn’t improving my opinion, given the lack of irony in the comments quoted above.
NWO, Thou Earnest Christian… how many coats have you got? More than one?
I thought so.
Ullere: I agree with you that average pay is not good to look at. That is why I was using the average starting salary.
Having spent a good chunk of time at home due to unemployment, I’d say I was closer to pulling out my hair from boredom than a state of domestic bliss.
Why is it so hard for NWOslave to grasp that some people don’t want children? They’re also capable of peeing on you, screaming for no reason, and coloring on your walls. I even have a vivid memory of putting my mom’s new watch in a basin of water just to see what would happen as a child–and I was considered well-behaved on average!
‘Oh right, women hate physical labor and overnight shifts. That explains why all the nurses at the hospital are men.
Also how about the women who “put up with unpleasant factors” of their own and still earn less?’
In general men work harder and more dangerous jobs, the wage gap is based on average earnings not a small group of hard working individuals. Women who work harder mroe dangerous jobs get paid more than men and women who do not.
‘The study in Ullere’s article is interesting in that it only reaches conclusions for childless women and men in their mid- to late 20s. As if men with children don’t outearn their childless counterparts by 10-15% (and working women with children of course earn a substantial amount less than childless women). As if women don’t face age discrimination in their jobs more than men do. As if sex discrimination against rural women doesn’t matter.’
Men with children do not get paid more than men without children, certainly not 10-15% more.
The study in Ullere’s article is interesting in that it only reaches conclusions for childless women and men in their mid- to late 20s. As if men with children don’t outearn their childless counterparts by 10-15% (and working women with children of course earn a substantial amount less than childless women). As if women don’t face age discrimination in their jobs more than men do. As if sex discrimination against rural women doesn’t matter.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf
a report in 2003, which is a little dated but I assume you don’t believe the wage gap is a new thing. men with children earn 2.5% more than childless men, however this doesn’t control for the age difference between men with and without children, as older men are more likely to have children and also earn more.
Your claims of age discrimination and rural sexism do not matter, as I have stated when controlling for other factors other than gender the wage gap disappears or reverses. So evidently the age and sex discrimination against women has not created a wage gap.
Sure, many of it’s here are actually parents, but NWO has babysat his nieces and nephews–possibly more than once. Obviously, we must defer to his superior experience and expertise in the area of child rearing.
@Holly Pervocracy
” When you understand why “home daycare owner” isn’t the world’s most popular career choice for women–and why it’s a career choice you’d never consider for yourself–you will understand much.”
Actually it is the most popular career choice women make. Name me any other career choice, (nurse, secretary, lawyer, ect.) that is higher number proportionally than a stay at home mother.
Please back up your data with actual numbers. The numbers I come up with are 30-36% of women are stay at home mothers. Please show me another “career” with a higher number of women.
Here, NWO:
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28
76% of teachers are women.
Also, Holly, every survey ever done shows a minimum of over 50% of women would choose to be stay at home mothers if they had that option.
I make 12.5% less than my male coworkers. We all make the same amount per hour, but I’m at 35 hours/wk, while they’re at 40. That was ok when I was hired, new person, gradual increase in staffing, unemployment sucks, yadda yadda. But we’ve just hired again, and not upped my hours. Not ok. The part-timers? Female. And no, we don’t have families that we’re running home to, not that that should make a difference. And yes, we would prefer full time.
But MRAL is upset, so I should shut up and take it.
Citation needed, NWO.