Over on Reddit, DoktorTeufel has a problem: he likes the ladies, but he doesn’t like the feminists. Unfortunately, some ladies are also feminists! And therein lies the danger. Naturally, he turns to the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit for help.
I’m just going to come out and say it: I will never knowingly enter into a romantic relationship with a feminist. I do have some female relatives and acquaintances who are feminists … and it’s not like they all wear signs that proclaim I’M A FEMINIST. (Some do.)
Aside from obvious telltales (feminist bumper stickers, etc.) or outright asking them “Are you a feminist?”, what are some discreet ways to ferret out a woman’s views on gender activism without creating an awkward situation? Feminism is a minefield topic, and I certainly wouldn’t broach the subject directly with a woman I’ve just started dating.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, he received much helpful advice. Celda broke it down for him:
You don’t really care whether she identifies as a feminist or not – you care what her views are.
For instance, does she feel women have the right to force men into parental obligations against their will?
Does she feel women are oppressed in Western society?
Does she think that women make less money than men for the same work?
If yes to these questions or similar, then you probably want to avoid her.
Exactly. Always avoid those with a basic grasp on reality. They’re the worst!
Naive1000 suggested looking for more subtle clues.
Ask their thoughts on “benevolent sexism” if they know what your talking about you likely have a feminist. Just to make sure go into male privilege, it’s the feminists’ most popular talking point. Let her talk about it then you can see what she’s really like. But, there are some women who call themselves feminists, but are really egalitarian: they just don’t know the term.
Memymineown also suggests a subtle approach, and holds out hope that some of the younger feminist girls can be won back to the path of righteousness:
Bring Men’s Rights issues into the conversation subtly. I was talking with my family about Justin Beiber and brought up the paternity charge and no rape charges filed against the woman.
That led into a discussion about how women aren’t punished for rape.
Just do things like that.
But you shouldn’t exclude all feminists. I would say that the vast majority are just girls(I do use that word on purpose) who have been lied to. Once you show them the real facts they will probably come around.
ThePigman, by contrast, urges DoktorTeufel to go for the jugular:
Why do you need to be discrete about it? Just ask her. If she is a member of the cult she will start screaming about the patriarchy, then her head will explode.
It’s true. Pretty much every conversation involving feminists quickly devolves into screaming about patriarchy. Heck, a feminist friend and I once screamed about patriarchy for five hours straight. We probably could have gone longer, but the manager at Applebee’s, evidently not a feminist, threw us out. Sometimes I start screaming about patriarchy when no one else is around, just to keep in practice.
Conversations with feminists pretty much all go like the conversation in the video below, only instead of a cat you need to picture a feminist, and instead of the word “no,” the word “patriarchy.” You can see how annoying that might get, and not just to Hitler.
@no more mr nice guy
After the illuminating discussion about tracking menstrual cycles, CH is now discussing “Glee”.
LOL at at a message-board full of middle-aged men trying to decide what 20-year-olds are into today.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/an-updated-cold-read/
Anyway, the real question is: is Don a alpha, and if so how is it possible he lost his wife?
I was reading some blogs just now (damn insomnia), and I realized that there are lots of fundamentalist Christian women who are encouraging each other to “submit to sex” (P-in-V intercourse in their definition – but not mine) whether they physically, mentally, and emotionally want to or not. Apparently, these women are convinced that the healthiest type of sex life in a marriage is one in which they are regularly penetrated without arousal or lubrication – in other words, they become living Real Dolls® for their husbands. Many quote passages from the Bible where they are instructed to submit themselves to their husbands.
Why don’t the MRAs just date women like these? They all seem to subscribe to 50s views of division of labor inside and outside the home, too. It would appear to be a natural fit.
And hey, you know, maybe for these women, dry sex is the way to go for a healthy relationship! Maybe they like kink, and this is the only Biblically acceptable way to get it. I won’t be begrudging them that right. It’s just irritating how so many of them can’t shut up about how they want to deny me my right, likewise to define sex as oral and manual activities, as well as enjoy BDSM, taking female partners outside the relationship, etc.
The only time people get upset about what other people do with their free time is when they’re not actually enjoying theirs. I genuinely doubt I would be spending this much time posting online myself if I were fully employed and the job market wasn’t suffering from the post-holidays slump. If they don’t want jobs, though, there’s always commenting on blogs…or Glee…or Cosmo!
On that note, I’ve always wondered what it’d be like to work at Cosmo. If I worked there, I would definitely develop a new way of writing the “37843893874 sex tips that get him hot tonight!”-type articles. I would ride the MTA all around Manhattan and talk to the most interesting-looking people I could find, especially the buskers, hobos, and poets, and ask for their personal sexual philosophies. With a little editing (or, well, a lot), the well of sex tips could indeed be endless. Maybe that’s how they get those years and years of sex tips in the first place, ’cause putting a scrunchie on a man’s cock definitely didn’t come from a regular old college guy. That’s straight up, Red Hook, Brooklyn trust-fund, ukelele-playing subway busker.
sorka, oh my fucking god, he’s also trying to convince his readers that all the hot 20 year olds are into … Gilmore Girls.
Hasn’t that show been off the air for years?
Is “Heartiste” really a PUA guru or is this all some elaborate hoax?
I used to watch Gilmore Girls in highschool lol
Seeing a bunch of guys on blogs constantly try so hard to find new ways of scoring, over-analyzing every tiny thing women do, while simultaneously talking about how inferior women are is so laughably pathetic it almost makes me a but schadenfreude.
And forcing yourself to watch a TV show like GLEE just so you can come up with a new opener doesn’t sound too “Alpha” to me.
And browsing the comments on that post, one dude linked to the blog called hbdchick (human bio-diversity, a fancy way of saying racist) who links to our friends In Mala fide, Roissy as well as a tumblr promoting eugenics. Such lovely, pleasant people! /sarcasm
Surely a better way to connect with women is to not be a racist, sexist, homophobe? The amount of guys on that blog that seem to think watching Glee makes you gay is a little amusing.
Ullere, okay, I still haven’t found the study I read originally that said men with children make 10-15% more than men without children, but in looking for it, I’ve discovered (1) it’s called the marriage premium, and (2) it exists when comparing similar age groups (i.e., over 45 married versus under 45-year-old singles).
An article that pinpoints the wage difference as 11%.
A study of twins that finds that marriage increases men’s salaries by as much as 27%.
There are a lot more articles online on the marriage premium, but this comment will get stuck in moderation if I link to them. I’ll leave them for your own research if you’re interested.
I realize that these links talk about married men versus single men, and not fathers versus childless men (as in my original statement). The original article I read posited that the wage difference might be due to one group having a stay-at-home mom to act as their personal assistant. I think that theory still holds in the married/not-married studies; living with someone whose interests are aligned with your own, who cleans up after you, does your laundry, makes sure you’re fed, helps you entertain, and generally makes your life easier would absolutely help one’s career, even aside from the commonly held idea that a family man needs a bigger paycheck.
Actually, despite the hilarity of the gilmore girls stuff, just this one golden unironic line from Roissy’s post –
“Also, you’d be surprised how many 30-something women are into these shows as well. Never-ending adolescence has infected both sexes.”
You tell ’em bout that never-ending adolescence, Roissy!
…But don’t worry, it’s worse in chicks, guys.
In fact, I’d argue women have assumed the mantle of perpetual adolescence in far greater numbers and with greater intensity than have men. You just have to use the correct — read: the un-PC — metrics to uncover that.
…
Also, the Glee Cold Reading may be one of the saddest things I have ever heard in my entire life.
This is so alpha and not desperate?
Or sad?
Or…
Sad. So. Sad.
I just. Here. Let me repeat the Glee Cold Reading, here…
. So I’ve updated the cold read formula for 2012, and I call it The Glee Read. It’s the same formula as the SATC read, only with new characters replacing the old, jaded, sinewy Samantha, Carrie, Charlotte and that lesbian.
YOU: (Smiling) “You guys are awesome you’re just like the girls from Glee.”
GIRLS: “Oh I love that show…”
YOU: “You’re definitely Rachel because you’re strong but you have a heart. People misunderstand you.” (This is good to use on the shy girl of the group.)
YOU: “You’re Quinn, the queen bee!” (Use on the most outgoing chick.)
YOU: “And you’re Mercedes. You want to be a diva, but you’re too nice to pull it off.” (This is actually a great neg to use on a hot white chick, because the Mercedes character is a fat black girl. The character “Santana” would also work as a neg.)
YOU: “And you…” Shake your head disapprovingly at your target. “You are Sue Sylvester.”
You don’t have to use the exact formula I’ve written above. Just know a little bit about the main characters and suit to taste.
…
Oh god. Oh sweet merciful…
That’s the saddest thing I’ve ever read.
And it won’t work. xD Tho now I want him to do cold readings of ALL fandoms! xD
Roissy is like Stan Lee, he made a big splash with his audience once upon a time and now he’s desperately trying to stay relevant. xD
This is as sad as the Guardian Project. xD
The idea that you can flirt with a 25 to 30 yo woman by comparing her to a clueless teenager is half laughable and half creepy.
sorka, oh my fucking god, he’s also trying to convince his readers that all the hot 20 year olds are into … Gilmore Girls.
Um… Roissy… all the hot 20 year old girls that were into Gilmore Girls… are now hot 30 year old girls…
I think this is Roissy’s own fear of aging hitting him… it’s like his midlife crisis xD
“You’re the Scarecrow, you’re outgoing and impulsive and people mistake that for lack of a brain.”
“You’re the Lion, you’re really sensitive and people mistake that for lack of courage.”
“You’re the Tin Man, you’re serious and thoughtful and people mistake that for lack of a heart”
“And you…” Shake your head disapprovingly at your target. “You’re Toto.”
That’s… precious.
What gets me is that this is seen as “The Secret”. Some time back, when I first encountered The Artist Formerly Known As Roissy, I pointed out that, were he a “REAL Alpha”, he wouldn’t be needing all this “Game”. He could just walk into any bar, in any place, and the women would come to him. This is, if the “Theory of Game” is correct, the way it is. Alphas have women flocking to them, no work required.
So Roissy is, at best, a Beta, and the guys who are emulating him are trying, really hard, to become, “Upper Betas”.
Which is, the more I look at him, harder to deny. Maybe he’s getting laid on a regular basis, but he’s still busting his hump, and spending lots of time and effort, to get what should just happen… if he were an alpha.
Looking at the comments over on CH:
1) Apparently Roissy meant to say “Gossip Girl.” Which just highlights the hidden dangers of hitting on girls half your age by pretending to be into the same shows they are: how can you keep it all straight? (Also, how fucking creepy is the idea of some 40something dudes boning up on Glee or Gossip Girl so they can try to con some 20 year old to sleep with them? )
2) Lots of the guys there said they’d rather stay home with their hands rather than have to learn shit about Glee. Which actually isn’t a bad response.
3) Wouldn’t it be much more creative to hit on girls by comparing them to characters in long-forgotten 70s shows? Like, say, McMillan and Wife?
If anyone wants to read about my trip to the Daily Show it’s here
If only he had said Golden Girls …
YOU: (Smiling) “You guys are awesome you’re just like the girls from the Golden Girls.”
YOU: “You’re definitely Rose because you’re strong but you have a heart. People misunderstand you.” (This is good to use on the shy girl of the group.)
YOU: “You’re Blanche Devereaux, the queen bee!” (Use on the most outgoing chick.)
YOU: “And you’re Sophia. You want to be sweet, but you’re too cranky to pull it off.” (This is actually a great neg to use on a young hot chick, because the Sophia character is a really old lady.)
YOU: “And you…” Shake your head disapprovingly at your target. “You are Dorothy.”
Pecunium – Yeah, there’s such a thing as charisma, and it’s not something you can get from a script. I don’t think you need mega innate charisma to attract a mate, but you do if you want to feel like Big Man Alpha with women hanging off every part of you they can get a handhold on.
I respect guys who don’t have much charisma, but are earnest and upfront and just “hey, I don’t have a good pickup line so I figured I’d just say hi?” about things. I have just about zero respect for guys who are so obsessed with their own image that they refuse to shut it down and talk on the “haha, but no, really” level.
I think I’ve found Roissy’s Scottish cousins!
Also, it’s kind of amazing the casual racism on display there.
Apparently Roissy wants to pick up the kind of women who will say “I am not like a black chick! Oh you! Why don’t I take you home and show you just how white I can be?”
“Lets make this clear once anf for all. Nobody “wants” to work.”
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather pipette all day than scrub floors all day.
Off to work (which I don’t need… pension from the Army and all that) but I enjoy. I’d not enjoy it if they didn’t pay me what I’m worth; and so I would quit.
“I don’t know about you, but I’d rather pipette all day than scrub floors all day.”
Seconded.
Also, I like my work. Sure, every now and then I wish I could take a day off on a whim, but in general I am happy to go into the lab every day.
Oh, and Ullere, if you’re still around – your response really didn’t address my criticisms. If a women isn’t considering an engineering degree because she’s been hearing her whole life that girls aren’t good at math, even if her career choice is following her “desires”…there is still a very serious problem that needs to be fixed.
And again, I say: Yay, stereotype threat. Uhg.