Over on Reddit, DoktorTeufel has a problem: he likes the ladies, but he doesn’t like the feminists. Unfortunately, some ladies are also feminists! And therein lies the danger. Naturally, he turns to the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit for help.
I’m just going to come out and say it: I will never knowingly enter into a romantic relationship with a feminist. I do have some female relatives and acquaintances who are feminists … and it’s not like they all wear signs that proclaim I’M A FEMINIST. (Some do.)
Aside from obvious telltales (feminist bumper stickers, etc.) or outright asking them “Are you a feminist?”, what are some discreet ways to ferret out a woman’s views on gender activism without creating an awkward situation? Feminism is a minefield topic, and I certainly wouldn’t broach the subject directly with a woman I’ve just started dating.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, he received much helpful advice. Celda broke it down for him:
You don’t really care whether she identifies as a feminist or not – you care what her views are.
For instance, does she feel women have the right to force men into parental obligations against their will?
Does she feel women are oppressed in Western society?
Does she think that women make less money than men for the same work?
If yes to these questions or similar, then you probably want to avoid her.
Exactly. Always avoid those with a basic grasp on reality. They’re the worst!
Naive1000 suggested looking for more subtle clues.
Ask their thoughts on “benevolent sexism” if they know what your talking about you likely have a feminist. Just to make sure go into male privilege, it’s the feminists’ most popular talking point. Let her talk about it then you can see what she’s really like. But, there are some women who call themselves feminists, but are really egalitarian: they just don’t know the term.
Memymineown also suggests a subtle approach, and holds out hope that some of the younger feminist girls can be won back to the path of righteousness:
Bring Men’s Rights issues into the conversation subtly. I was talking with my family about Justin Beiber and brought up the paternity charge and no rape charges filed against the woman.
That led into a discussion about how women aren’t punished for rape.
Just do things like that.
But you shouldn’t exclude all feminists. I would say that the vast majority are just girls(I do use that word on purpose) who have been lied to. Once you show them the real facts they will probably come around.
ThePigman, by contrast, urges DoktorTeufel to go for the jugular:
Why do you need to be discrete about it? Just ask her. If she is a member of the cult she will start screaming about the patriarchy, then her head will explode.
It’s true. Pretty much every conversation involving feminists quickly devolves into screaming about patriarchy. Heck, a feminist friend and I once screamed about patriarchy for five hours straight. We probably could have gone longer, but the manager at Applebee’s, evidently not a feminist, threw us out. Sometimes I start screaming about patriarchy when no one else is around, just to keep in practice.
Conversations with feminists pretty much all go like the conversation in the video below, only instead of a cat you need to picture a feminist, and instead of the word “no,” the word “patriarchy.” You can see how annoying that might get, and not just to Hitler.
Ullere, your simplistic bullshit? Does it fulfill you, deep inside? Why do you come here?
‘Care to justify your claims that the studies show that they have controlled for those differences and they negate the wage gap’
sure.
‘I don’t like the methodology or the conclusions shown’
Well ok…
What about the last academic article that shows that the wage gap has been reversed. You ask about a difference that doesn’t matter, is 2% close enough?
I have justified my claims that the studies show a reduction or reversal of the wage gap when other factors are controlled.
‘They admit to a raw wage gap larger than that feminists argue exists,’
in 1970.
Here. This place. Why do you keep coming to it?
Ullere: What about the part where I say the controlling factors are, as with the second study, a case of the authors dismissing the actual factors with a bit of handwavium. When you “norm” things which aren’t equal, you can get any result you want.
They admit to a larger gap than feminists argue, Today. Modern feminism (with a different set of norming factors) tend to say the real wage gap is between 12-18 percent. The second study says it’s north of 21 percent.
It’s not that I the results don’t agree with what I’ve seen elsewhere, it’s that the methodolgy is faulty. If I’m allowed to say, “If I discount the problems women have in getting tenure track positions at universities I see that all tenured faculty have the same pay scale”, I’m bullshitting the actual facts.
Which is what those studies are doing.
Which is, in it’s way, worse than what the WSJ did when it accepted that facile, and fatuous, Op-Ed you started with.
Shorter version: You didn’t justify shit.
MRAs idealize the suburban life of the 1950s and believe that everybody was part of it. And at the same time, they know that none of them are part of the upper class and can afford to have a stay-at-home wife – that’s one of the reason many choose to be alone and become part of the MGTOW or become PUA. Basically they want a stay-at-home wife but they don’t want to pay anything for her.
Ha! I knew there was some delusional fantasy at play.
Well, I just got done visiting my other message board where some MRAs who either don’t know they are MRAs or who don’t call themselves that hang out. One, who wants the government completely abolished, and blames women in the labor force for the reason why he can’t have a docile, Betty Draper pet of his very own, is totally butthurt tonight because yet another woman doesn’t want to date him. The dude is around 30 and has never sustained a relationship with a woman in his life for longer than two months.
During this latest dating fiasco, he called the woman a derogatory slur commonly used to keep “uppity” women in their place. She told him she was hurt and wanted to date him no further. He went into a snit right there on the message board, claiming he didn’t say it, and even if he did, she was oversensitive anyway (but he still wanted to date her, and if he couldn’t, then maybe they could still be friends, because he is such a Nice Guy®).
She refuses to take his calls. He has no idea why. And he will probably repeat this cycle for many years to come if he doesn’t take a long, hard look at himself. Why, maybe he’ll show up here and debate us all!
Other salient points:
• He only dates the type of women who expect $100-dollar/plate dinners on the first date, then complains that they can’t afford to pay the bill in full. If the woman doesn’t want such a dinner, he takes her to it anyway, then insists she owes him sex in return. He also wants women to feign interest in paying the tab, but does not want them to ACTUALLY pay, and any deviation from this script he has only in his own mind sets him into a rage.
• He parrots Ron Paul talking points at every turn, while simultaneously whining that the federal government is too small, because it won’t pay to treat soldiers with PTSD.
• He claims that marriage is a “trap” for all men because once, he knew this one guy who had to pay alimony to his wife that one time. But he thinks he’s different, so he wants his Betty Draper pet.
• He thinks that any time a man pays a woman child support or alimony, she is required to submit to forced penetrative sex in return, whenever the man feels like it, because if she gets his money, he owns her genitals. He does not believe this reasoning should stand if the genders are reversed.
• He says that jobs nowadays require too many hours, and that’s why he can’t have kids. Does he blame the corporation that’s turned him into a slave? Nah. Does he blame the government? Not in this case. It’s the fault of women in the workforce, who don’t have the decency to forgo college educations to raise his children!
• He enjoys accusing other people of displaying an “entitlement mentality” every chance he gets, but doesn’t see the irony in thinking he deserves a docile pet woman who answers his every whim, simply because he has a job and bathes every day.
• Male humans are “men,” and female humans are “girls.” Similarly, men are always logical and straightforward, women are blathering emotional idiots.
• He believes PUA is an excellent replacement for treating alcoholism, depression, or unemployment, and imbues all of its followers with the highest of self-esteem and confidence with women. Yet despite this, he has never actually been successful with a woman.
@Ullere
women being punished career-wise for motherhood: http://www.jstor.org/pss/10.1086/511799
Customers biased against non-whites and women: http://khufu.openlib.org/~tchecndg/archive/2007/att-0755/DiscriminationHekman.pdf
See the part where an architect admits to paying women less: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113939266
I’ve also been reading about how women not negotiating is affecting their income too. Yes, it’s their fault, but women are also discouraged from acting aggressively , disagreeable and are viewed negatively (what a bitch!) Men are not. It actually benifits them when they do.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080807112605.htm
http://newsinfo.nd.edu/news/25367/
“We studied four large data sets,” he says. “And in all four we found there is a penalty for being agreeable in the workplace. But, while men earn a premium for being disagreeable, women don’t.”
It’s the stereotypical double standard according to Judge.
“If you’re a disagreeable man, you’re considered a tough negotiator,” he says. “But, the perception is that if a woman is agreeable, she gets taken advantage of, and if she is disagreeable, she’s considered a control freak or ‘the B-word.’
Aggressiveness and being assertive is considered important to succeed in the work force. Women are socialized to not be these thing. It’s changing, but it’s not enough. People see an outspoken and assertive woman and think “what a bitch, who do they think she is?” she is punished for having the very traits needed to get ahead.
Are some parts of the wage gap due to women’s choices? yes. Does discrimination still exist and also cause for this? also yes.
One of the biggest problem in my opinion though is how female dominated industries pay less than mens. How is nursing, childcare, caring for the elderly or disabled not considered important? even minimum wage should be brought up for retail because without people running service jobs, everyone would be fucked. And on top of that how is it fair to punish mothers or even women who they assume will be mothers for taking time off to care for children? of course men work more hours, they’re not usually the ones staying home with the kids. More and more women like me are realizing we are going to be punished for motherhood, so we opt out of it all together (it also helps to not like children). I can’t wait to hear the hysteria coming from the traditionalist types and even the rest of society when they see that more women will opt out of childhood because that’s the reality women have to face.
Also the men work dangerous jobs argument is getting tiresome. Most men do not work life- threatening and dangerous jobs and many non-threatening dangerous jobs pay just as well.
Ullere, dost thou fear Death? Dost thou feel his icy breath upon the back of thy neck? His bony talons curling round thy wrist? Dost thou believe that by finding a troupe of revelers, engaged in the mocking of misogyny, and upon discovery turning them from thence unto dry, endless, boring, repetitive, stupid arguments upon the nature of Ye Olde Wage Gap and the Action that Affirms, around and around, and thence again around, you can slow down the very ticking of time? You can stave off the Reaper and the price we all must pay?
TIS FOLLY, ULLERE, FOLLY! AND AT LEAST THE MOCKERS KNOW THAT WE DO JAPE!
THE BELL TOLLS FOR YOU!
SO DOTH THE CLUE PHONE!
GET THEE FROM HERE! THE MOVING FINGER WRITES AND HAVING WRIT, AND ALL YOUR LACK OF HUMOR AND OF WIT, SHALL NOT WASH OUT A WORD OF IT. WE HEARD YOU, FOR FUCKS SAKE.
*breeds some internets and gives Zhinxy one*
All hail zhinxy as Terry Pratchett’s Death.
I just want to know where she’s hidden Binky.
Also-
Women need a PHD to earn as much as men with a BA
Yeah yeah, it’s from Feministing, but they aren’t discussing a study done by feminists, so don’t worry its safe *eyeroll*
http://feministing.com/2011/08/09/women-need-a-phd-to-earn-as-much-as-men-with-a-ba/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
it also says:
The study also found:
Lemme guess…they just choooooose to get paid less!
The funny thing is that even now it’s quite possible to find a wife who’s willing to play the Betty Draper role…but she’s going to expect a husband like Don. If you want a woman like that in your life, you can have one, but she’s going to have expectations too, and if you can’t or won’t fullfill them she’s not going to be willing to stick around.
These guys want all the parts of the old 50s deal that were fun for men without any of the obligations or responsibilities, which is why they can’t ever get what they want.
MBA
Sorry but that really is a liberal arts degree by a different name, I would never say any higher education is a bad thing but a mba has as much clout in the real world as any liberal arts.
Tell me you have a degree in micro and macro economics if your a business major, if not I’d rather employ someone with a degree in history.
Of course they do! Can’t they just boycott food and shelter?
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Gray-Flannel-Suit/dp/1568582463
This should be required reading for every mra.
MUSIC THEORY! OMG! THIS IS AN UNEXPLORED REALM OF POTENTIAL RICHES!
How do we best tap this new vein?
I know I’m finding this hours after the fact, but please oh please oh please, someone make this happen somehow. It would make me so, so delightfully happy to see NWO attempt to explain how, say, Mixolydian is an evil feminist/communist/Jewish plot.
Yeah, this. “He brings home the bacon while she raises the kids and keeps the house” is not a deal everyone wants, but it’s a deal.
“She raises the kids and keeps the house, and he doesn’t give her a cent beyond room and board (maybe some clothes if she’s good, but don’t go having a party with HIS MONEY), and he can ditch her at any time and owe her nothing”–that’s the deal the MRAs want.
And I think that would gross out even Don Draper.
Stop shaming men with your high expectations. It’s unfair to their beta and omega male genetics.
Yeah, this. “He brings home the bacon while she raises the kids and keeps the house” is not a deal everyone wants, but it’s a deal.
“She raises the kids and keeps the house, and he doesn’t give her a cent beyond room and board (maybe some clothes if she’s good, but don’t go having a party with HIS MONEY), and he can ditch her at any time and owe her nothing”–that’s the deal the MRAs want.
yeah exactly -_- it’s not a 2 way street to them, all of their expectations on women are fair, but if those women have expectations for them (which is not saying I’d AGREE with them, but as you say if that’s the deal they want, then they have to accept the other side too) that’s UNFAIR….
I guess to NWO and his ilk, women should never expect nething from men, we should be happy that men even keep us alive xD
zhinxy | January 5, 2012 at 9:36 pm
If you show interest, she’ll start doing the tampon buying shit test,at worse, or just decide you are maybe not a completely aloof super alpha, at best? Best to covertly use app?
I have a question, and this has to do with the big MRA reaction to period sex. And it has nothing to do with whether I think ppl should be okay with it or not, or if they’re misogynists if they dont’, etc etc etc… (I dun feel I can speak on this, or have any experience to xD ) but almost all (if not all) of the MRAs were like EWWWWW NEVER!
But wouldn’t a really alpha thing to do be to not care? If you’re aloof to period sex, that should make you the ultimate alpha in that context. xD
after all, wouldn’t shunning period sex just be a neg, and therefore she’ll beg you for MORE period sex? xD
Applying game theory to everything is fun 😀
The Chris Paul deal in the NBA through game theory:
David Stern is the player, The New Orleans Hornets are his… um… penis… The LA Clippers are the hot girl he wants, the LA Lakers are the fat girl he doesn’t want, and Lamar Odom is the guy with them,,,
He used the Lakers to get the Clippers in bed with the Hornets, and left Odom and the Lakers stuck together awkwardly
Now THAT’S game. xD
I have to wonder how old these guys are, and if any of them ever speak to their older female relatives. Women who were willing to sign up for the traditional deal without expecting anything in return NEVER existed. The deal always came with strings for both parties. The strings for the man were less constricting, for sure, but it was never “she is disposable and worthless and she knows it”, which is what these dudes wank to the idea of.
I don’t even know where this comment thread is now. I was reading here at home and then had to go to work. It was at 130 or something, then I tried to catch up and it was 160ish, then 230ish … I couldn’t catch up, and then I left. I read a bit at work during my break and it was–shit you not–at 666 comments.
Times like this I wish the blogspot format would let me start at the beginning rather than the last 70 comments or so. It’s so hard to keep backing up and figuring out where I left off …