Uh oh! I just discovered this, currently the top story over on the Men’s Rights subreddit:
Yes, my sisters (and honorary mangina man-sisters), Russell Brand has dealt a severe blow to Operation Alimony, which (as you well know, at least if you’ve been attending the meetings) is our dastardly Feminazi plot to destroy the patriarchy by getting pretty ladies to marry and divorce rich dudes and take all their money.
You may remember our wild revelry when we heard that comrade-ess Heather Mills had walked off (no jokes please) with £24.3 million of Paul McCartney’s man money. And the joyful tears we shed when we heard that Mel Gibson’s ex-wife had (reportedly) scored a cool $425 million in her divorce settlement.
But today, we shed only the bitterest of tears. We have not only been thwarted, but we’ve also been exposed! Damn those Men’s Rights Redditors and their evil allies at the Daily Mail!
The comments in the r/mensrights thread show that they understand our evil plans all too well. How can we respond to Aetheralloy’s withering critique?
Feminists see the absurdity of their own pushed polices?
LOL no. No they won’t. I’d sooner expect scientologists to ask their psychiatrist if they are in a cult.
But ladies! Do not despair! Russell Brand may have set back our efforts, but he, and his Reddit allies, shall not defeat us!
Ladies, you know what to do. Get yourself all prettied up, hit the town, and snag yourself some rich dudes! Let’s see how many of these guys we can have married off by the end of the year.
Marrying (and divorcing) rich dudes: it’s the feminist way!
I had a
Damn it, I went to sleep and missed the “you’re all just jealous” argument.
Yes, Alphalady, we’re all so, so jealous. And guess what made us jealous? All of your negative energy, that’s what. You should think about that.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to toss all my antidepressants in the garbage disposal, because clearly I don’t need them if I just think positively enough!
Man, I missed the bra discussion!
I’ve been measured at every place I could find – different answers, all of them wrong. Finally went bra shopping with a friend who had been through the same thing. Discovered that I should be wearing about a 38DD, rather than the 42C I had been. I’m more comfortable, my clothes fit better, and – oddly enough – for the first time in my adult life, my seatbelt lies correctly.
(During this, I got body-shamed at a Lane Bryant of all places. The saleslady told me that I should come back after I had stopped “doing that to [my] body” – breastfeeding! – and maybe I would fit into their bras.)
It seems completely counter-intuitive to me. Provided both partners are sympathetic to each other’s needs, I really don’t see why low self-esteem should be an insuperable problem. Almost any relationship is going to have its dark patches at some point.
Oh seriously not cool, Leely )-:< what a terrible thing to say to you. This has just been the thread of really mean things to say.
My personal experience with depression and dating (which won't necessarily reflect the experiences of others with depression/similar disorders, though no doubt I would be able to understand everyone's experience if I were only married) is that depression can complicate things. But depression can complicate anything, like buying groceries or taking a walk or bird watching or one’s relationship to cereal. That doesn’t mean depressed people should just stop doing all of those things. And of course, having someone who loves you supporting you and accepting you as you are through the hard times can be a huge source of strength.
Ugh. It’s awful she said that to you. I preferred nursing bras for the convenience of the flaps, but I think regular bras should also be fine for nursing moms. It’s also backwards logic that a woman has to “fit into the bra”. The truth is that the bra should fit the woman.
@ MRAL: Everyone seems to find my presence so offensive..
No, I’d revise that to say that when you backslide to the types of attacks you made when trolling, then you are being offensive. The responsibility is on you, and you need to recognize that. You told us yourself that you have issues around romantic relationships because of your own insecurities, and the “women are all elitist and can get anything they want and are all happy and screwing me over” is a REAL issue you have (which, ditto above, has nothing to do with your intelligence).
And on one level, I find it really strange how hotly you defend the fact that some women don’t find the MEN you think so hot/attractive (though urtotesnotgai) weird–I know you explain it by the “if they don’t find that dude hot, I’m doomed,” but that’s where you really need to get a grip on reality: different people of all genders and sexualities are drawn to different people for different reasons.
ANd ‘celebrity’ status even without all the apparatus they have to polish themselves up for public consumption gives perfectly normal looking people HAWTNESS because, celebrity.
I hardly even know who Katy Perry and Russell Brand is (didn’t he voice some character in some animated film?), I find neither of them sexy (for one thing too fucking young), and hell, I’ll take Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan in their Xmen roles over the first class hottise that most of (a demographically younger than me fandom) is sqeeing about.
I just hope you don’t end up the 45 year old man still pathetically trying to get a 22 year old to bone him.
Actually, come to think of it, I know someone who suffers from severe depression – we’re talking days and sometimes weeks of black despair, the symptoms of which are described in detail on her Facebook wall in lurid detail. And yet her marriage seems rock-solid.
Handily, her husband has the patience of a saint, a by-product of the all too evident fact that he absolutely adores her, and rates her far higher than she does herself.
@ Quackers:
On self-esteem: I feel you, it is super super hard. In the past year or so, I have been through a lot of body changes and it has been hard to keep in mind that my body is awesome and beautiful (and the fatness doesn’t help). What I have found to be most helpful is to take time every day to compliment yourself on something you did or something you’re proud of. Like, for me, I would tell myself about how much I love my legs, or my shoulders, or whatever body part was making me happy that day. Or if I had a kickass dance or pilates class, I would congratulate myself on how rocking my body was for supporting me through that intense workout.
Start small, like, maybe you like your smile? Or you have a flattering hairstyle? Or your butt looks good in your jeans? Whatever. Take some time, look at that part in the mirror, and just love the shit out of that part. Make that time judgment free and just love whatever it is about your body that you love. If you’re a theist, remind yourself that you’re beautiful because you’re created in God’s image (and if you’re not, remind yourself that evolution created a totally awesome body out of carbon and stuff, which is pretty neat).
Fat activists like The Rotund have a lot of great stuff to say on positive body image that can be applied whether or not you are fat. I would suggest you go comb through her archives. Hope this is helpful! It’s a long and scary process, but it’s totally worth it. Because as you build body acceptance and love your body more, you inevitably treat it with the respect it deserves.
Heavily seconding this. My depression was sub-clinical until the first round of nasty PPD. My husband’s support has been crucial, especially as other parts of my support system failed badly.
I’m so glad you had someone to help you through that, Leely — and that you were able to parse that incredibly awkward sentence I wrote! Proofreading is your friend, Viscaria.
For the record, my last partner’s emotional abuse and my depression fed off of one another until I was in a much, much worse place than I would have been if I’d experienced an episode while single; but that’s not because I was stupid enough to think I could date when I was not “thinking positively” enough. It’s because he was an abuser who chose to take advantage of it.
@Whetherby
Actually, come to think of it, I know someone who suffers from severe depression – we’re talking days and sometimes weeks of black despair, the symptoms of which are described in detail on her Facebook wall in lurid detail. And yet her marriage seems rock-solid.
Handily, her husband has the patience of a saint, a by-product of the all too evident fact that he absolutely adores her, and rates her far higher than she does herself.
Yes, exactly. Relationships provide support through difficult times! Who knew? 🙂
Frankly, I think “self-esteem,” however one defines it, is overrated. I mean, having a reasonably positive self-concept is usually desirable, but when it comes to relationships, there are many qualities that are at least as or more important: empathy, self-awareness, capacity for insight, willingness to compromise, emotional self-regulation skills, etc, etc.
Is self-esteem important? Sure. Is it the sine qua non of healthy relationships? Absolutely not.
God, I didn’t want to get into this last night, but I will say that part of the reason Alphalady’s comments about self-esteem and relationships really resonated with me (not in a “Wow, that’s so wise” kind of way, but in an “Auuuuuuughmphg, not this again” kind of way, maybe) is that every single relationship I’ve been in that meant anything to me has involved some long-ass conversations about why I would be so much cooler/more attractive/easier to date/sexier/whatever if I just had some fucking self-esteem, dammit, why can’t I see that and just be more confident or whatever? I’m left with a residual feeling that that very well may be true in my case, but goddamn, how could anyone not know that having that conversation just makes me feel like shit and makes me even less self-confident than before.
This is, of course, just my experience. I’ve often wondered, though, if that’s a controlling move (“You’re not good enough because you don’t have high self-esteem” vs. maybe … giving a compliment), or just the natural outcome of a person with low self-esteem trying to date, or a sign that dating me is its own special challenge, or what. In any case, CB, it is very eye-opening to read your take on it.
I’ve often wondered, though, if that’s a controlling move (“You’re not good enough because you don’t have high self-esteem” vs. maybe … giving a compliment)…
I think you’re right, it is quite often a controlling move. One of the most commonly used gadgets in my father’s emotional abuse toolbox was putting people down for not being confident or capable enough, thus making them feel even shittier about themselves.
Or, in the words of Homer Simpson, “Stand up for yourself, Poindexter!”
People don’t like having you around when you’re attacking them for bizarre things like not being especially attracted to Russell Brand, MRAL, or insulting random girls you meet at parties for having sex with other men. It’s not about the other people – it’s about you, and how you’re acting. You can stop it, and have everyone be nicer to you again, or you can keep it up and keep feeding off that negative energy, but I will note that feeding off negative energy didn’t work out very well for you before.
@ Bee- Yeah, I have totally been in that place with romantic relationships. For me, the insult was that I was too eager to please, and that ironically made me even more eager to please by plastering on a veneer of strong! independent! woman. I later decided to identify it as low grade emotional abuse. It does SUCH a number on your self esteem, and it’s total bullshit.
lol @ lots of things on here but sorry, i don’t even post much, i DO find bra size talk somewhat empowering though! the whole de-mystifying thing as mentioned before. This culture at least is really really weird about breasts and it’s good to know that a majority of women have had some difficulty with em and they’re no one has magic whipped cream squirting ones like ms. perry (to bring the conversation back to the op haha)
also when mral said “oh suddenly everyone has big tits” just made me go “whaa?” as if it was an uncommon thing or something. once again, culture, weird!
Hey, my recap of the alphalady thingy is up and out of moderation! Everybody can scroll up and it’s like the dvd menu of a subplot of the movie! or something!
@Bee,
You know, Bee, I think the problem you describe isn’t a function of your self-esteem so much as it’s the other person’s insecurity with your perceived lack of self-esteem. I mean, I don’t know your specific situation, but secure people don’t generally badger their partners about having low self-esteem; instead, they show the other person, through their words and actions, how much they mean to them (augh, pronouns! :)). Showing appreciation for a partner’s positive qualities, and acceptance of their flaws, goes a long way, IME, towards boosting both the partner’s self-esteem and the quality of the relationship as a whole.
I’m sorry that you had to experience the “you just need to have more self-esteem” lecture from intimate partners, since such conversations are seldom very supportive or helpful. It’s like telling a depressed person that they just need to cheer up or have a positive attitude. If they could have done it, they would have done already. Instead, it just make a person feel worse about themselves, since the implication is that the solution is really quite simple, when, in fact, it’s not.
(Also, I don’t mean to presume to analyze your relationships; I’ll refrain from further comment if you like. It’s all good.) 🙂
Great work zhinxy! I think all of these large threads should have nice summations like yours linking to key posts – once there’s more than about 10 pages of comments it becomes a real pain going back later and finding a particularly juicy posting.
On page 2, Lauralot is the among the first to jump in with a bra size at MRAL’s “[Katy Perry] still has big tits”, and CassandraSays also posts, prompting MRAL’s “f course everyone suddenly has big tits”. Just a little further down the page Laura links pics of her Wonderwoman cosplay embodying the bespoke 30DDD corset.
On page 3, Cassandra kicks off with the average bra size of women in the UK being 36DD, and she, Polliwog and Leni discuss bras from Freya.
After the MRAL sock post on page 5 and the start of the Alphalady meltdown part of the thread, the bra discussion really kicks off on page 6: VS, Ahh Bra, bras from Bravissimo.com, and derisive comments about Spanx pantyhose.
Being a non-US/UKian I can’t help blowing my own trumpet for adding a useful link to a bra-size computer for countries that use different size schemes (85b.org), and also has a page explaining why the cup sizes go strange after about D (some manufacturers go straight from D to E, while others have one (DD) or two (DDD) sizes comparable with E or F); the link further down the page added by mocking lurker seems a bit buggy.
Finally, Need to know then totally rules the page with an awesome everything-you-need-to-know-about-corsets-but-were-probably-afraid-to-ask post.
Thanks, Dracula and M Dubz … it’s nice to know that it’s not just me this has happened to! CB, no need to refrain at all! I’d never really thought of it that way; it’s good to get feedback that puts things in a different perspective. I really appreciate your insight — I don’t want to go into too much detail/derail here, but it lends a balance to the situation that seems more appropriate to me.
Relevant?
I’ve never watched Jimmy Kimmel before. Are his questions always so dull?
My god, that interviewer is so boring! It sounds like he’s phoning in his questions from Dullsville. And yay, Russell Brand’s moobs gets out-cleavaged by Christina Hendricks (I enjoyed your previous CH theme Spear)!
Quackers: I don’t know if you’re still looking for input — if not, then please ignore this huge monster of a post — and I don’t know if any of these will help you, but these are some articles/blog entries that really helped me start to work on my self-esteem. I do, of course, still have some pretty crippling moments of self-doubt, and I still struggle to stop myself from saying nasty things to myself. It’s really a long and arduous process, not like alphalady seemed to imply. It takes a lot of work to try to get more self-esteem.
What someone earlier on in the thread said is a good suggestion — finding something you love about yourself and taking time out of your day to compliment yourself on it works wonders. Try finding something new every day. And don’t just focus on physical features — like whoever-it-was said (sorry, I forgot to check the name and I ain’t going back into that mess of comments to find it :P), sometimes think about something you did that you’re proud of, that you think you did awesomely. Don’t just focus on your looks.
What it’s got a lot to do with is training yourself to think more positively. Even if you have that self-doubting voice that shoots down your compliments, ignore it. Or if you think you’re hyping yourself up too much — thinking it isn’t REALLY that big a deal that you managed to make the most sales in the day or your butt looks fabulous in those shorts — shut up and do it anyway 😛 Starting to force yourself to say nice things to yourself eventually makes you actually… kind of believe it! And then actually, yeah, you DO believe that! You ARE awesome!
It isn’t magic, it doesn’t happen within the span of a week. It takes a very long time and even, as I think dracula pointed out, one can have overall good self-image but also still have some pretty strong self-doubts as well (I’m a good example of this). You’re never going to think you’re totally awesome 100% of the time. I don’t think anyone is like that, really and truly. But it can definitely help you slowly build up your confidence and make yourself happier with who you are.
Anyway, onto the article/blog/things. These are aimed at young people, age 13-25, and also geared more towards women, and I don’t know if you fit within that, but even if you don’t, this is pretty universal stuff, I feel.
The following one is to do with body image, if you’re having issues around there. It’s funny, there is a lot of “love your body!” stuff out there, but I found this article particularly comforting, I guess because I know that the author is such a strong, wonderful, intelligent lady, I find it kind of comforting to think that even she feels like this sometimes.
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/body/life_lessons_from_the_third_stall_on_the_left
And another on body image
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/body/seven_ways_to_love_your_body
The next one also really resonated with me because it’s about being disappointed in yourself for not being perfect/not achieving something to the standards you hold yourself too, which I get… a lot. So it’s more about self-confidence around yourself as a person, not body image.
http://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather_corinna/2011/11/10/losers_can_be_awesome_a_lesson_brought_to_you_by_the_chicago_cubs
This is also a good forum thread where people explain what makes them feel good about themselves, which might help you start to think about things that make you feel good about yourself. That way you can focus on doing those things more, or whatnot.
http://www.scarleteen.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/50/t/000014/p/1.html
Body image haikus always make me happy 😛
http://www.scarleteen.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/50/t/000005.html
(If you notice this funny trend of scarleteen links, that’s because… I utterly love that site, and I used to volunteer for them, so I know the posts inside out and have them on hand)
As I said. These are not magic fixes, and I don’t know if they will help you. Just reading them won’t make you feel better about yourself. But I’m hoping that at least one of them will give you some ideas on where to try starting off, as they did for me.
er… ps. I was formerly known as herp derp but then I went and made a blog on wordpress so I am now hotairgenerator. Hi :B