If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.
Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.
The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:
So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.
Let’s have the deets!
A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.
Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a little … awkward.
Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.
Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?
I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.
It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.
Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.
PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:
I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.
Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.
Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.
Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”
Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.
So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.
Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.
Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”
Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!
Fangs78 added:
Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.
Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”
It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”
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I think the answer is: anytime after she has the temerity to show up for said date in clothes you like looking at.
You need permission to touch another person’s body. There are small social exceptions for things like handshakes (although even then, if you extend your hand and the other person doesn’t extend theirs, you don’t reach in and grab their hand), but in general, you need explicit permission to touch another person’s body.
It’s not complicated, it’s not a mooooood killer, and it’s only ridiculous or humiliating if you’re humiliated by not being allowed to rape.
So, NWO, strip clubs?
Explain them.
According to you, one of the worst things that can happen to a man is that he be deliberately aroused by a woman who denies him access to her body so that he can achieve sexual release. We, being women, do not understand that men do not want to look at women they find sexually attractive, only to be denied sex.
So… strip clubs, how do they work?
But serious question that I know you will answer either with sarcasm or by ignoring it:
When should you put your hands down someone’s pants, on a date? How do you know if they want it? Describe to me how this scenario would play out in NWO’s Perfect World.
(If you answer with sarcasm, I know full well that means you’re too stupid to answer it straight up, which will be more proof that you are a stupid person. Prove me wrong…)
Enough not to commit sexual assault. That’s all. And, again, the vast majority of men are just fine with this.
I think NWO is complimenting Holly by accident. Orwell was AWESOME.
I firmly believe that people should be allowed to say “I want to stick my dick in your pussy” in the same circumstance in which I said it. (Again, Bob is a composite sex partner and does not refer to any specific person whom I’ve fucked.)
Bob and I met in class. I complimented him on the Touch Me I’m A Save Point button on his bag; he said my essay about global warming was witty. After several days of walking home together, he invited me inside his room. We talked about D&D, transhumanism, and sex-positive feminism for a few hours; I invited him onto the bed. We snuggled for a bit and continued discussing what he would do if he became a lich. We went silent; he asked why we were silent, and I said it was b ecause I was trying to mind-control him into kissing me. He kissed me, and we made out for quite a while.
In the post-makeout cuddles, I asked where this was going. We agred that it was a casual relationship, and we discussed which sex acts we would like to, one of which was PIV. In these circumstances, it is perfectly acceptable to say that you want to stick your dick in someone’s pussy.
By NWO’s logic (i.e. every woman should act the same way to his sticking his hand down her pants), then every man he asks to hire him should have to react the same way because MAN.
Etc.
I’m assuming he would never ask a woman to hire him because he’s too busy sticking his hand down her pants.
It’s a bizarre-oh world indeed.
NWO:
You’re so cute with your completely binary view of gender. Awwwwww . . .
beep boop, paging mars. mars come in.
NWO:
How much deference do you show to men?
That’s how much you should show to women.
NWO, darling, you have to ask before you touch people, unless you have a relationship in which certain kinds of touch are understood to be allowed (for instance, I am allowed to hug my best friend without asking, I am allowed to hold my mom’s hand without asking, and I am allowed to kiss my girlfriend without asking). If you are confused about whether you are allowed to do something, then ask. Even in relationships in which touch is assumed to be allowed, the person is allowed to revoke their consent at any time for any reason.
@NWO
You asked me why a woman’s feelings were more important than mine when determining whether or not to continue having sex.
I’m going respond to that by making an analogy. Lets say I’m at the doctors and hes checking me for tumors and touches my skin and I am fine with this because I don’t want tumors. Then lets say he starts punching me as hard as he can. I ask him to stop and he says he wants to keep going and does. Why should he consider my feelings to be more important than his?
Heh… Nineteen Eighty-Four was the first book I ever read with a sex scene in it (yes, I was a morbid kid). I think NWO is trying to tell us that shapeless unisex overalls are a clear signal to gettin’ in on.
Another thing I can’t grasp about NWOslave’s conviction that sluttily dressed women are *everywhere*, and yet lots and lots of jobs have dress codes. I’ve never had an office job where I could show cleavage, and even the low-skill jobs (Pizza Hut waitress, Macy’s saleswoman) involved uniforms and dress guidelines so strict that I could only wear a certain color of pants.
Please tell me the Orwell thing isn’t a misguided attempt at referencing 1984…
Ingsoc attitude towards sex: Sex is purely for procreation for the state. Enjoying sex is sexcrime.
Feminist attitude towards sex: Go and enjoy all the sex you want.
Apologies for the simplification but you literally could not find two more different attitudes. They’re polar opposites.
NWOslave’s “men and women are different” shtick is reminding me of a bad stand up comedian.
What’s next, NWOslve, asking “what’s the deal with airline food?”?
Molly Ren – It’s even funnier when you realize he’s several times said he’s going to Utah for work.
Clearly Salt Lake City’s streets are a day-and-night slut parade.
OK. I’m new here.
NWOSlave is some kind of trained troll you all keep around for entertainment, right?
From the “nice legs” comment, can we assume that NWOslave is a leg man?
Hey, NWOslave, if you get turned on by this picture of Cyd Charisse, is she sexually harassing you from half a century ago or am I sexually harassing you by bringing your attention to it? Who’s to blame here?
Men probably could have invented better ways of preparing food on planes so that it would be much tastier, but they gave the jobs to women instead because of quotas. Badum dum chh!
Maybe this’ll work.
>>>Please tell me the Orwell thing isn’t a misguided attempt at referencing 1984…
You’ll have to excuse people like NWOslave. They’ve never actually read 1984 or Brave New World, they’ve just heard about Big Brother and soma and Alphas/Betas/Zetas and they all think it’s all in a single big book.
They also are under the impression that 1984 was a basic anti-communist screed when the author was himself enough of a communist that he fought in a communist militia during the Spanish Civil War.
So, how about it, NWOslave, who’s to blame for your reaction to this?
Asking for consent is not rocket science, NWO. When I am in the mood, I might ask my husband “Hey, the kids are asleep. Are you thinking what I’m thinking?”. Then he can say yes or no. We also have established that we are allowed to touch each other without verbally asking permission first, but if one of us is not in a touchy mood, then we say “No thanks”. It’s that easy.
NWO, two things.
1. “Men and women are different.” [citation needed]. In some ways, it’s a low bar – there is a lot of gender differences research out there. But there is very little methodologically sound, meaningful gender differences research, particularly that draws a link to necessarily biological causes. So. Show me some solid evidence that can’t be all-but-dismissed after spending ten seconds in the “Methods” section.
2. Please explain to me how to dress in a way so I will not accidentally “harass” men by turning them on. Please link me a picture of modest clothing, so I understand how to combat this slut culture you speak of.
See, I’m really confused – the other day, I was unshowered and my hair was sticking up at funny angles and I was wearing sweats and a hoody, not a form-fitting or skin-revealing outfit at all. My boyfriend, upon entering the room, told me I looked hot and proceeded to demonstrate that he was sexually aroused. If I wasn’t in the mood to have sex with him, was that teasing? At what point am I showing enough skin/dressing “slutty” enough that I am obligated to have sex with him? My little ladybrain cannot comprehend these difficult social rules, so you will need to outline them for me more explicitly.
Laplace: He has actually answered this question! Amish and Mennonite women wear non-slutty clothing. If you wear any other kind of clothing, you’re turning men on, which means you’re asking to be raped. If you have ever worn any other kind of clothing, you’re still asking to be raped, because you dressed like a slut other times.