If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.
Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.
The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:
So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.
Let’s have the deets!
A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.
Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a little … awkward.
Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.
Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?
I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.
It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.
Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.
PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:
I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.
Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.
Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.
Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”
Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.
So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.
Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.
Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”
Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!
Fangs78 added:
Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.
Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”
It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”
This post contains:
@Molly Ren
You don’t ever speak to a man unless expressly given permission do you? That’s rapey to some women.
Well, only the ones they want to fuck. And they should be a bit more polite about it, maybe start with “ya wanna get a cup of coffee?” and go from there if the both of them are still feeling it.
But basically, yeah, that’s at least a step up from the “if a woman arouses me I should be allowed to just jump on her” plan.
@Viscaria
“Oh for goodness sake, NWO, Ozy wasn’t talking about a complete fucking stranger. I think you know that, and don’t care.”
Does a woman care if she dresses and acts sexually in front of a stranger? Why should a man care if he talks sexually to a stranger? If a man doesn’t have to look, then a woman doesn’t have to listen.
Nope. A man who sees me on the street and likes the way I look doesn’t have to figure out whether being attracted to me means I’m consenting to sex with him. He can just use his manly-man logic and presume that because I: 1) have no idea who he is, 2) have not approached him and asked him if he’d like to have sex and 3) am minding my own business that I have not consented to have sex with him.
The vast majority of men understand this perfectly well.
Damn, NWOslave not only doesn’t get consent, he doesn’t get the difference between talking to your co-worker in your office and yelling at a stranger for their phone number.
This is a lie.
It’s an instrumental lie, though; by letting yourself believe that talking to a woman is “rapey,” you give yourself licence to imagine that all reports of rape are really just reports of unwanted talking, therefore rape does not exist, QED.
@Holly Pervocracy
Sweet! When do we intitiate teaching all boys to just up and ask any woman if they wanna fuck? I think it’s a fantastic idea!
NWO, I’m absolutely certain that your refusal to define “dressing or acting sexually” in any concrete way is deliberate.
But can you at least tell me: is it deliberate because you’re trolling in bad faith and don’t really mean what you say? Or is it deliberate because you secretly know you can’t answer this question–that sexiness is in the mind of the observer–but refuse to admit it because then your whole little world might fall apart?
No. Female humans (the word “woman” indicates that there’s a cut off for these rules based on age and sexual maturity) should not be in public unless they’re willing to have sex with any and all men who express interest.
This is what NWO believes.
Do you really want to fuck a lot of strangers on the street? I mean, not just “yeah, she looks alright,” but “I am ready and willing to take her to my house, take off my clothing in front of her, and be physically intimate with her?”
If you do–seriously do–realize that’s because you’re, uh, whatever you are, and not because you’re a man.
I just can’t take this cartoonish DerpSlave seriously anymore. It’s pretty much guaranteed he’s faking his stupidity for whatever reason. I don’t know what he gets out of having strangers on the internet think he’s a moron, but whatever. He has to be putting it on, because at this point he sounds like he’d have trouble with basic counting skills for pre-schoolers.
@Holly Pervocracy
If every woman is different and I say “nice legs,” and get 100 different reactions, any action I intitiate, the response can run from flattery to sexual harrasment.
What’s your answer, Holly Orwell?
This is stupid on its own merits, but it’s also a tremendous example of you moving the goal posts. You suggested that telling someone that you want to put it in, in any context, should not be considered harrassment because Ozy said something similar to someone in a very specific context. When I pointed out that Ozy couldn’t say that to just anyone, you counter with a totally unrelated argument about clothes that has nothing to do with what Ozy had said.
I take it, then, that you’ve backed down from your claim that Ozy’s words to zir sex partner mean that “I want to put my dick in your pussy” is never harrassment in any circumstances?
Ah the unintended hilarity when I read the “married men” as being intended to replace “all women”, since it was the last subject in the previous statement…
Why the fuck are you saying “nice legs” to 100 strangers?
That’s just impolite.
How about this, Holly.
I’m out on a date and I put my hand down a girls pants. She likes it and we shack up for the night.
I’m out on a date and I put my hand down a girls pants. She hates it and under the new FBI defintion, I committed rape. I’m in jail for 10 years.
I’m out on a date and I ask to stick my hands down a girls pants. She says, “nice mood killer, just take me home!”
I’m out on a date and I ask to stick my hand down a girls pants. She’s insulted and calls it harrassment.
I’m out on a date and I ask to stick my hand down a girls pants. She says OK.
Tell me, Holly Orwell. What’s the answer?
Deal with the reality that every woman is an individual -just like every man- and realize that the woman who enjoys hearing “nice legs” is a totally different person from the woman who doesn’t. Act accordingly. Accept the risks. In a work environment, refrain from specifically referring to the anatomy of a co-worker in a sexualized manner.
You could, of course, keep your thoughts about the woman’s legs to yourself. But I realize that would be the equivalent of the woman sexually abusing you.
You could also try speaking to her about something other than her legs to see if she might be interested in you.
“1. No, it is not abuse.
2. Men arouse woman all the time. They go jogging without their shirts on. They stretch at their desks while looking cute. They smile. They wear tight jeans.
I, for one, have no problem with this and wish it to continue.”
agreed!!! 🙂
The answer is you should ask.
By your own logic, if she doesn’t want your hand in her pants, the “asking” result is still far less bad than the “not asking.”
(By the way, Orwell was a critic of fascism, so I’m kind of honored.)
NWO: A PUA walks up to a woman, whispers sweet nothings into her ear and gently carresses her.
A PUA rudely struts up to a woman and gropes her while spewing foul obsenities.
If the woman in both cases has not given consent for such behavior, both are equally wrong, and the “difference” you see is subjective and irrelevant.
You’re as bad as DKM with refusing to use words like “fuck” and insisting he’s nice and well mannered while telling us we should be rounded up and forced into slavery.
@LyssatakeaBow
You’re a woman, a totally different reaction. You can’t feel like a man, just as I can’t feel like a woman. It’s impossible.
Oh, sorry, I missed the part where women all scream “MOOD KILLER” and run away if you ask them anything.
That is an evil lie that rapists use to justify violently raping people. IT IS NOT TRUE. IT IS A BIG FUCKING HORRIBLE RAPIST LIE.
kay?
Funny story: even though we’ve been together more than a year, my boyfriend and I still always ask “do you want to have sex?” explicitly before doing it.
I have yet to yell “MOOOOOOOD KILLER” and run out of the room like a frightened deer.
But hey, maybe if you lied to my boyfriend and told him I would (and he was very dimwitted and gullible, like NWO is), he would have a great excuse to rape me!
You ask before you stick your hands down a woman’s pants?
If you have a problem with asking permission, you could state your intentions or desire to stick your hands down said woman’s pants and wait for her to respond before you take action.
How is that men can use their mouths to ask “Wanna fuck?”, but not “Can I touch you?” in your scenarios, NWO?
I don’t even know why I’m asking; your ideas about sexuality and consent are as fucked up as they are stupid. When do you “stick your hand” down a woman’s pants on a date? Right after she tells you about winning the spelling bee in Junior High? While you’re taking a walk? Right after you’ve told a funny story (like you’re capable of normal human interaction) and she’s laughing?
So fucking stupid.
@Holly Pervocracy
Are we back to my flow chart?
May I speak?
May I whisper?
May I venture an opinion?
May I look at your face?
May I look at your legs as long as I realize it’s attached to a person who has feeling and dreams?
May I touch your hand?
How much defference to women should men show?