If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.
Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.
The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:
So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.
Let’s have the deets!
A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.
Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a little … awkward.
Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.
Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?
I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.
It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.
Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.
PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:
I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.
Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.
Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.
Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”
Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.
So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.
Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.
Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”
Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!
Fangs78 added:
Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.
Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”
It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”
This post contains:
So… ‘No men are saying this apart from those I’ve chosen to ignore for arbitrary reason #34’
Well that seems reasonable.
Stuff like this makes me sad. I mean more the original question then the responses, the responses are horrible but they don’t hit me the same.
I have done a few things that I regret in my life that are a little like this. I never ignored outright no’s but there are a few times I did things I really regret. When my girlfriend said stop I stopped, but I can remember when she asked if I was almost done implying that she wanted to stop and I kept going. I can remember counting my feelings as more important than hers in that moment and just thinking about it makes me feel bad. I learned from it and I don’t do that anymore but you can’t undo the past. Or I kept asking or implying and she gave in and afterwards we had a conversation about it and how it wasn’t really cool. I learned from that also but its fucked up that I had to learn at someone else’s expense.
I can remember meeting a girl from online for a first date, getting drunk and making out in a church yard. At some point I started fingering her, I think I had tried once or twice before that and she’d stopped me. Then since it was too late for public transit and my place was within walking distance we walked there and slept in my bed with nothing happening. After we took the train in the morning I never saw her again, though I texted and emailed her over the next week(not every minute probably once a day at most but still) until she replied and said politely she didn’t wasn’t interested. I should have taken silence as an answer and to be fair I stopped after the one response but the whole thing haunts me. I can interpret it all as her just not having a great time and parting on fine terms or her feeling violated and then having to spend the night with me and then feeling harassed by me not getting the hint. I have no idea which one is correct and there’s no way to know and it haunts me.
I’m not really sure what my takeaway from this all is, I identified as a feminist at the time and had read and agreed with plenty on consent and whatnot and still I did those things. I feel like reading about it and living it are different but that that’s not a good enough answer. And hell, I had been exposed to feminism and even understood that what I did was wrong afterwards. Thinking about people like me without even those things is scary. I think this is the first time I’ve ever really understood rape culture at a non intellectual level.
@Kendra, the bionic mommy
“NWO, I don’t criticize PUA’s for being promiscuous. I don’t judge them for having sex with lots of women. The problem is that their advice is about testing women’s boundaries and “escalation” rather than seeking enthusiastic consent from their partners.”
“Escalation?” It makes it sound all so nasty. A good word I guess when promoting an agenda.
How about if I call it “carressing” instead of “groping?” Now it’s not so bad is it?
—————
A PUA walks up to a woman, whispers sweet nothings into her ear and gently carresses her.
A PUA rudely struts up to a woman and gropes her while spewing foul obsenities.
—————
Watch this: I’ll prove all ducks are white.
All ducks are white.
Well, except for some ducks, like Mallards and such, but I don’t think we should really count those as ducks, because they’re not white. And as we know, all ducks are white.
QED
These describe obviously different actions, but anyway… both of these are gross to do to someone who hasn’t given their consent.
I don’t think NWO understands the concept of consent. I mean, literally. It explains so much.
NWO, the PUA’s themselves choose to use the word escalation. I’m glad you agree that it sounds nasty, because that’s what we’ve already been saying.
@Ramza
Why aren’t your feelings more important than hers?
Why are her feeling more important than your’s?
————
In your stories I noticed it was OK for her to sexually arouse you then pull the plug.
———–
So in the modern world it’s OK for women to sexually arouse a man and than deny him. Wouldn’t this constitute sexual and emotional abuse?
Yes. No.
And that’s true even if she’s actually trying to arouse him, and not just “arousing” him by wearing normal clothes where he can see her.
The feelings of the person who doesn’t want to have sex are always more important than the feelings of the person who does.
You’re the only one trying to bring gender into this one.
Sure wouldn’t! Neat question, got more?
Yep, I was right. Consent means nothing to NWO, at least when it’s about other people.
@Holly Pervocracy
Since everyone is different as the feminists love to say. If a man does “escalate” and the woman approves it’s OK. If the same man “escalates” with a different woman and she doesn’t approve he has committed a rapey act.
The only way to know if “escalation” is USDA approved is to actually “escalate.”
Perhaps a feminist flow chart.
May I talk to you?
May I look at your face only?
May I venture an opinion?
May I walk a pace behind and to the left while you are walking?
May I compliment you?
May I be informed if my compliment is out of line?
May I be forgiven if my compliment is out of line?
May I have a list of what you consider is an appropriate compliment?
May I touch your left index finger.
May I proceed to touch your entire left hand?
Am I being too forward?
If I’m being too forward, may I apologize?
Will you accept my apology?
Yep! Now you’re getting it!
Nope! You can use your words and ask!
In your “flow chart” you make it seem ridiculous, but asking before having physical contact with a person is simple and entirely appropriate!
See how easy this can be?
As you can see, as has been illustrated time and time again, NWO has no fucking ability to understand consent. None. Zilch. Zero.
Think about the way he talks about women who are in bars. Accept a drink, fuck the guy who bought it for you? You’re a whore. Accept the drink, don’t fuck the guy who bought it for you? You’re a horrible tease, arousing a man and promising him sex and then denying him. Don’t accept the offer of a drink? You’re a bitch who deems the man “unworthy”.
Pump the breaks while making out or during sex? It’s sexual and emotional abuse of the man.
According to NWO, a woman consents to sex not by expressing desire (women have no sexuality beyond a man’s gaze), experiencing arousal, or participating in sexual activity. Women consent to sex by being female. Period. Being out, in public, around men, dressed in anything, any man can find remotely attractive means that a female human is offering sex to any man that can see her.
“Animals in heat.” Right?
The only time a woman is raped? Is when a strange man, driven to assault by the constant teasing by all women, beats some poor woman half to death before sexually assaulting her.
Just like “context”, there is no “consent”.
NWO, why do you have such difficulty with this concept?
I have control over my body. You have control over your body. If you say “no, I don’t want you to do Thing X with my body,” then I have to stop. On the other hand, if you want to do Thing Y with your body that does NOT affect my body, I do not have the right to tell you to stop, because it is your body and you decide what you do with it.
And if women’s sexuality is not visual, kindly explain why when my girlfriend said (discreetly, of course) “look, there’s a hot redhead!” the other two woman and one man at the table all whipped their heads around to watch her ass. (God. She had a GREAT ass.)
You’re sort of right about one thing, NWO; one woman might not wish to be touched by a man, but another woman might welcome touch by the very same guy! Because women are individuals. Also, CONSENT!
@Holly Pervocracy
“The feelings of the person who doesn’t want to have sex are always more important than the feelings of the person who does.”
Which is why it’s OK to sexually arouse any man at any womans discretion. The slut culture of constant arousal and denial can have only one ending for a society. Men and women are different. What you’re essentially saying is you promote one form of sexual abuse while demanding protection from the other form. Unless you don’t believe arousal/denial is abuse?
@NWO
And the art of asking before you “escalate” is wrong because….?
@ozymandias42
Men and women are different. Please refer to reality.
1. No, it is not abuse.
2. Men arouse woman all the time. They go jogging without their shirts on. They stretch at their desks while looking cute. They smile. They wear tight jeans.
I, for one, have no problem with this and wish it to continue.
I don’t believe arousal/denial is abuse!
I am aroused by the sight of John Barrowman, but John Barrowman has not come to my house and fucked me. This does not mean John Barrowman has abused me.
The OP – ugh. Ugh ugh ugh. No words other than ugh.
Whoever suggested PUAs get RealDolls and leave other humans alone (ozy?) had the right idea. If you don’t care whether or not your partner wants to have sex with you, if it’s all about bragging to other men about your number, why bother? Just use a sex doll! True, it’ll just lie there, but so will the woman you are date raping! And RealDolls don’t take you to court!
Or, since it’s all about other men anyway, these guys could just cut out the middleman (middlewoman?) and have sex with each other and brag about that.
Oh, and possible TMI alert, but most of my propositions involve some variation on the phrase “Let’s get these dogs out of the bedroom”.
And NWO, just FOAD.
By the way, NWO, was that you trolling my blog a moment ago? It was most unpleasant.
@Holly Pervocracy
Yet as you say, everyone is different. My flow chart may be ridiculous to you yet another woman might find it delightful.