If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.
Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.
The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:
So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.
Let’s have the deets!
A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.
Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a little … awkward.
Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.
Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?
I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.
It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.
Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.
PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:
I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.
Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.
Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.
Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”
Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.
So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.
Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.
Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”
Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!
Fangs78 added:
Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.
Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”
It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”
This post contains:
@Brandon
Then those women who give out fake no’s are the ones who should be called on it, not the ones whose no means no!
It’s because of men like in the OP, that we have to test men if they will actually stop or not.
It’s not a “fake” no, anyway. It’s a real one.
@Amnesia: So I have to ask…but she doesn’t have to stop saying it? Why don’t you tell women that when you say “no” you really mean “no”. Of course not…that would mean placing responsibility on the woman. Which is something feminists don’t do.
@Magpie: So you want the relationship/interaction to continue yet you say “no” to them to see how they will respond? Seems rather manipulative. And then you wonder why men don’t like it when women do shit like that.
Also…that seems like a perfect example of a “shit test”.
Brandon, did you read the OP?
Really, Where do feminist not place responsibility on women to say “no?” Examples or I’ll think you’re full of shit according to your rules.
Most feminists, especially sex-positive ones, are all about enthusiastic consent from both parties.
You can not care about my feelings all you want, but if you had any comprehension skills, you’d have realized that I was talking about how you relate to the world in general via what you say, not about me specifically.
Honestly? I think saying no when you really mean yes is a damn stupid thing to do. I completely support saying what you mean and meaning what you say.
Fuck, my already scant typing skills took the weekend off already.
I don’t have a bleak view of the world or men in general. I have an exceptionally dim view of misogyny, however.
Amnesia, saying what you mean doesn’t happen in Brandonworld.
You know, you have to admit that it’s pretty funny how insistent sexist dudes are on blaming feminists for the stuff that feminists are the least likely of all women to do. It’s lulzy.
It’s lulzy, but lord is it TIRESOME. They think they’re bursting with originality.
@Brandon, I see that you’re not up on the research. I thought we men were supposed to be the science types? Anyway, research has shown that women who believe more strongly in traditional gender roles have a lower opinion of men than women with more egalitarian ideas. It’s not the feminist women who hate men.
@Hellkell: Really? Feminists are telling women to say “no means no”? Hardly. Hell, even Amnesia just put the onus on the man to ask for clarification instead of saying “she shouldn’t say “no” when she doesn’t mean it”. Practically every scenario that includes a man and a woman, feminists will place the onus on the man to do something. Because demanding a woman do something would remove her “victim status” feminists love to have.
Hey, I am all for enthusiastic consent. Quite frankly, I can’t see how a man could sleep with a woman where she didn’t want to have sex. That attitude is “boner-killing” to me.
And how do I relate to the world? I am looking forward to your answer and all the ways in which you are wrong.
Like so.
“You women mess things up by forcing men to take the lead!”
“You mean feminist women? Because actually, not so much. In fact I’d rather that you didn’t try to do that.”
“And also you give mixed signals and refuse to just say what you want!”
“Actually feminists are all about saying what we want. Of course when we do you call us sluts, so…”
“Well, women who talk about sex like that are sluts! Why can’t you be more demure?”
“LOL!”
And all this is reminding me of my last boyfriend who wouldn’t believe me when I said I was tired and didn’t want to make out, because, you know, women don’t really mean what they say…
@Protagoras: That really depends on what you are looking for in a relationship and how that study determines what a “low opinion of men” entails.
You can be summed up by “fuck you, Jack, I got mine.” You’ve stated previously that you do not care what others think of you, nor would you go out of your to help people unless you were related, or something. You don’t like hookers or sluts, you think videotaping sex is A-OK, committing a crime to avoid a false accusation is good, marriage is dumb, and gold will save us all. Oh, and contracts.
All things you’ve said here, and since words do have meaning, this gives us a glimpse of How Brandon Relates to the World.
It’s still better to assume no means no and stop. If the woman doesn’t want things to actually stop, then she’ll need to speak up and say she does in fact give consent. If those women you know are giving fake no’s, and they’re mad their dates aren’t persistent, then hopefully they’ll say yes in the future when they want to have sex.
@hellkell: See, so very wrong.
1) True: I don’t care what strangers think of me. I do care what my family, friends and to a certain extent co-workers think of me.
2) I would go out of my way to help people if their lives were in danger.
3) I don’t think poorly of hookers, I just don’t want to pay one. I don’t care if a woman is a slut or not. If that is what makes her happy…then so be it.
4) I think my self-defense comes before others rights.
5) Marriage is an antiquated institution where all the rights of married people should be extended to every citizen. (i.e you shouldn’t have to get married to see a loved one in a hospital).
6) Gold is a hedge when fiat currency is losing value. If the dollar was strong, then gold prices would sink. Gold only serves the purpose of protecting your purchasing power when currency has dropped in value.
7) Contracts created by attorneys are best, but that doesn’t mean two people can not create a legally binding contract.
@Kendra: Personally, I do. If I hear anything in the realm of “no” or “stop”. I pretty much stop and leave the room. If it is at her house, I might even leave.
What gets my personal Liberrtarian goat is the false dichotomy of gold and fiat central bank paper, and it’s one’r the other! There’s an amazing amount of other alternatives.
Your self defense IS your right, an inalienable one, and when you are aggressed on, you have every right to… OH, wait, holy shit, you aren’t talking about that, you’re talking about sex tapes? Oh, dude, you’re pretty damn pathetic.
Can I be really honest here? I don’t actually care how Brandon relates to the world. In all seriousness, it’s of no interest to me at all, I’d really prefer for him to just be quiet so that I can read the comments here without constantly having to scroll through his tedious, lengthy comments about himself, his thoughts, his feelings, etc. It’s like reading a particularly boring diary.
Brandon also thinks stay at home parents aren’t important or do anything valuable.