If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.
Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.
The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:
So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.
Let’s have the deets!
A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.
Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a little … awkward.
Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.
Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?
I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.
It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.
Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.
PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:
I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.
Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.
Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.
Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”
Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.
So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.
Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.
Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”
Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!
Fangs78 added:
Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.
Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”
It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”
This post contains:
“A lot of feminists fail to see that most communication can be and is done non-verbally. They seem to have no understanding of men using a woman’s body language and facial expressions to determine if she is enjoying or not enjoying the interaction.”
Possibly this has to do with the multitude of dudes who ever so sincerely complain that they are biologically incapable of figuring out such things without a clearly-labeled picture book (or perhaps not even with that)?
But, actually, I think you’re right — guys simply aren’t that incapable, and most of the time when they claim to be they’re doing so because they think they can get away with something if they bring out the fifties sitcom gender tropes. My suspicion is that if ignoring a woman’s wishes with respect to sexual activity resulted in a high probability of a thumb in each eye socket delivered immediately, rather than a low probability of a complaint delivered later, we’d suddenly see a positively epic revolution in the ability of men to read social cues that would put even the Flynn effect to shame,
@Firebee: Nice spin! I wasn’t talking about mens ability to understand non-verbal cues.
But if you want to bring that up, a lot of non-verbal cues are highly subjective. What one woman does to say she isn’t interested might be different from another woman. Hell, sometimes what one woman does to say she is interested is what another woman uses to say she isn’t.
A lot of men get frustrated by this because a lot of the time those cues are convoluted, contradicting or otherwise vague.
@ithiliana: You still on that old bit huh? I would ask you to provide an example and explanation but I know you wont do it and will just resort to snide comments.
@Protagoras: I could see this with men that have autism or some other disorder that prevents them from properly reading social and/or non-verbal cues. In that situation, verbally expressing ones thoughts can be helpful.
However, I don’t think people should go around trying not to offend anyone or to not have any awkward misunderstandings. What offends one person, might help another person bond with another. I don’t think people should go through life catering to everyone’s whims. People need to be who they want to be and not “walk on egg shells” around people.
We know Brandon. You should never have to be inconvenienced in any way. You’ve said it several times already.
You’re just too cool for school.
@Hellkell: What are you babbling about?
Your drivel is what I was “babbling” (fuck you) about:
I know you think no one but YOUR whims should be catered to.
@Hellkell: I said that one should move through life not afraid of offending people. Where do I say my whims should be catered too?
Uh… almost every post you make.
Not gonna play this game with you.
@Hellkell: Well, if I say it everywhere, then it should be easy to pick an example.
But if you don’t want to do it, then I will just say you are full of shit.
Whatever, dude. Subtext, look it up.
@Hellkell: Proof and evidence…look those up.
Brandon, why don’t you go yell about bombs on an airplane and fires in the theater or something?
Uh-huh. What’s wrong, is it time for negative attention? Or is it just “rape-apology and “I’m awesome:30?”
Everything you say here is clearly intended to assert your superiority over us. Don’t be disingenuous at this stage of the game.
Brandon, do yo think your whims should be catered to?
@Hellkell: Well, then I will stick with my “you are full of shit” remarks if you can’t provide one measly example.
You would really make a terrible debater. Don’t quit your day job.
@Hellkell: Now you are doing non sequiturs? What do my “whims” have to do with anything being discussed here?
Brandon The Rape Apologist: IT”S A CLASSIC! Nobody needs to justify the CLASSICS.
Which are, if you actually read them, often massive rape narratives justifying rape narratives and pimping rape narratives. Like you.
Hershele – NWO’s never commented on my blog (under the name “NWO,” at least). I think he just figures he’s pre-emptively banned because he’s a man or whatever.
Suits me just fine.
Like I’m going to take debating tips from you, of all people. You don’t come here to debate, at least not in good faith. You come here to… I really don’t know why you come here. Oh yeah, to “fuck” with us. If this is representative of your fucking skills, color me unimpressed.
You said earlier you don’t think everyone’s whims should be catered to. I was wondering where you stood on that for you. Not a non-sequitur, if you can read.
@ithiliana: Well, if you can’t provide one example…then I am going to assume you are talking out your ass and are full of shit as well.
OH, NOES, ITHILIANA, BRANDON THINKS WE’RE FULL OF SHIT!!! WHATEVER SHALL WE DO?
Quite funny from the King of Being Full of Shit.
There are a bunch of ways to approach these kinds of situations – frankly, I really, really like to be asked. I am a very skittish person, sexually, and it’s sort of a turn-on when someone takes the time to consider my feelings and wants, and braves the possible rejection to specifically ask if XYZ act is okay. It makes me feel like they see me as more than a masturbation tool, and that makes me happy.
A recent partner is into domination, which sort of scares me. But he’s very respectful of my boundaries and is careful, so I said I’d be willing to try some things out – provided there was always a safe word and that we talked about it beforehand. Some things, I say okay to, and others, I say no. This, to me, is a very reasonable model for how I operate, and he also seems to be pretty okay with it, despite asking being a sort of submissive thing and he’s more inclined for domination. Somehow, even in a casual relationship, we are able to consider what each other might want and talk about it in a way that helps us determine how to explore some new territory.
It’s not walking on eggshells; it’s just being considerate.
Brandon, in the OP, men were talking about ignoring the obvious verbal clue of a date saying the word “No” up to ten times. Why would they react to nonverbal clues like their date pulling away, cringing, or tensing up when they try to “escalate”? I use the word escalate because that’s what the PUA’s call it. The advice given to Throw5891away was terrible. They should have advised him that if he has any doubt about what his partner wants, it’s not awkward to simply ask her.
First you said
They seem to have no understanding of men using a woman’s body language and facial expressions to determine if she is enjoying or not enjoying the interaction.
but then you said
If nonverbal clues are that hard to read, then they need to use verbal communication to make it clearer.
@Hellkell: I “fuck” with you because most of the commenters here do not engage in debate. I have tried several times and it usually falls into a insult swapping contest.
I never mentioned anything about peoples whims being catered to. I am assuming you are picking at this line:
“I don’t think people should go through life catering to everyone’s whims.”
This doesn’t mean people should cater to my whims. It means that I don’t get bent out of shape if someone gets offended at what I say. I think people should not be afraid to say something because someone might not like it. It has nothing to do with other people catering to my whims or wants.
But Kendra, that takes all the spontaneity, or, er, “romance” out of it, and whims might be catered to! We can’t have that!
In all seriousness, it’s almost Christmas. What kind of miserable person wants to spend Christmas trolling, or “fucking with”, people they dislike?