If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.
Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.
The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:
So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.
Let’s have the deets!
A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.
Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a little … awkward.
Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.
Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?
I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.
It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.
Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.
PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:
I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.
Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.
Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.
Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”
Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.
So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.
Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.
Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”
Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!
Fangs78 added:
Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.
Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”
It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”
This post contains:
Innnnnteresting. So, does that mean Amish and Mennonite women never get raped?
It means that Amish and mennonite women don’t reproduce. NWO doesn’t find their clothing sexy, so they cannot arouse a man and thus have no sexuality.
Unaroused men = no sex and reproduction
Little known fact about the Amish: their children actually grow in a cabbage patch.
psst: No one tell him about the people turned on by Amish dresses, or women won’t be able to wear ANYTHING.
Dude, she just came out with a solo EP. It is hella dope.
Ozy, I’m pretty sure not wearing anything would definitely not help this situation.
What you really mustn’t tell him about is all the men who see a good-looking woman walk down the street and enjoy the sight and feel better about their day, rather than flying into a rage that she didn’t finish what she started.
Oops, I’m sorry everyone. If it is not obvious, my last post did not belong here.
Amish and Mennonite women don’t reproduce? I better not tell that to my friend who is a midwife for a Mennonite community, she might suddenly start wondering about her job.
I am just totally and completely floored that NWO doesn’t understand that he can’t do or say the same thing to every person not expect different responses.
If he walked up to 100 men and said “nice legs” he’d get a variety of responses ranging from “hey let’s go fuck” to being totally ignored to “fuck off, loser” (or worse, considering many people’s attitudes about gay bashing).
Yet somehow he’s baffled that women might also have different responses.
This inability to understand that all people are not exactly the same, coupled with his inability for self-reflection is just… it’s really not a good recipe for having friends much less getting laid.
I have an experiment for you, NWO. Try walking up to every dog you see and petting it without establishing some kind of rapport first. Perhaps this can be a rudimentary lesson for a you in understanding that individuals are, um, individuals.
I’m laughing so hard at the idea of 1984 being purely anti-communist, you guys. It’s funny how many people assume that book must be about Distant Foreign Lands and miss all the stuff that’s pretty obviously inspired by the UK itself.
Next up – Animal Farm was actually an anti-farming polemic meant to inspire readers to become vegetarians. That was totally Orwell’s intention, I know this because I read it on Stormfront.
“Shooting an Elephant” is about how only White men are competent when the chips are down and difficult decisions must be made.
NWO seems to be unfamiliar with Rule 40: “If it exists, its someones fetish”.
So, really, the only way women can refrain from accidentally “harassing” guys is by not existing.
I also don’t understand why he is so violently against women wearing sexy clothes, if they want to wear them. Just because you can’t control yourself doesn’t mean you have to ruin it for everyone else, dude. The large majority of guys are able to keep it in their pants when they see a sexily dressed woman.
If this is such a problem for you, NWO, your only choices are to lock yourself up so you won’t pose a threat to others, or to learn some fucking self control.
Honestly, calling prepubescent girls sluts for giving you a boner because they were wearing swimsuits on the beach is… not actually a common reaction.
Wait, it just occurred to me…
women stopping to exist might also be someone’s fetish. Damn, I honestly think there is no appropriate way for women to behave/dress/exist/not exist.
Sorry, ladies 🙁
Question for NWO! Not even sure why I’m bothering to ask, really, because the coward’s ignored all my posts since I pointed out why he’d die alone, but anyway:
I am a nude model for the art classes at my college. Every time I model, I walk into a room wearing nothing but a robe, and then take off that robe, and pose naked, breasts and firecrotch and all. I pose for hours, in classrooms that are usually at least half comprised of male students, and usually male instructors as well.
So how is it, NWO, that none of these men have ever lost control due to my flaunting of my body and raped me?
Because you’re a wizard?
@Holly
Didnt FourSquare take care of that? (NSFW)
Yes, yes, Arks dear. Go back to your Frank Miller comics and let the adults talk.
@Quackers
Well, there go*my* Saturday plans.
@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth, you should make them like red-cards you get in football.
@NWO
Yes, yes, NWO dear. Go back to your Frank Miller comics and let the adults talk.
@Caraz
RuleReason #34, no exception.Yeah, do it, NWO. Concentrate on Rottweilers, Dobermans, German Shepherds, and anything that remotely resembles a Pit Bull.
(If you did this to my dogs, Madeline would jump on you and try to lick your face; Gus would probably continue to sniff whatever he was sniffing. My mother-in-law’s dog Howie would shy away and hide, because he’d been abused before she adopted him.)
After that I suggest you go DIAF, but that’s just me.
Are we talking about Orwell? I was writing a book with Orwell as a character and I know ridiculous amounds of Orwell trivia I like to show off? Oh, god, it’s NWO, nevermind. I don’t even wanna know what he even thinks Orwell is.
I actually did research far and above what I needed for the book and even my own curiousity, because I thought knowing disturbing big-brotherish amounts of things about George Orwell was pretty funny.
Lady Zombie:
Yeah, he kinda disappeared after Home Improvement, didn’t he?
Holly:
Has he ever attempted to comment under his usual handle? Does his apparent belief that he’s banned relate to something in the real world, or does he know it because of the flouride in his rothchild? Or does he just assume, since he’d ban him if he were you, that you did so?
Slavey:
Ok, in addition to his problems with severability of statements, the idea that words have meanings, the idea of sources, and the concept of consent, he seems to have trouble distinguishing descriptive and prescriptive speech acts. That could actually be why he believes in proof through repetition, and it certainly ties in with the magical thinking.
Also, he thinks in black and white terms. So to him, “people are individuals” and “there is broad consensus among people on some things” cannot both be true. To him, people being individuals means no two people can ever think the same way on anything.
Nobinayamu:
I don’t enjoy that experience. I deal with it by not going to strip clubs, not by raping people, or whining that I can’t.
I mean, that’s not even worthy of a cookie.
(Also, “deliberately” is the key word here, but, ah, fuck it, it’s Slavey)
“You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!” Oh, that is just awesome. I can just see a fratboy saying “Yo…check out this boner!…now grab me a beer!”
I’m kind of boggled at “May I touch your left hand?” as a question apparently meant to be ridiculous. How to put it nicely…? Some folks have ingrained reactions to being unexpectedly grabbed. Asking first is definitely on the Recommended As Healthy For All Concerned list.
To get back to the original post, I think it is often a mistake to get bogged down in the specifics of exactly what must be asked for and what various responses should be taken to mean, as quite a lot does in fact depend on context. To take an example which doesn’t involve sex or gender issues, does Plato’s Republic start with a kidnapping? Well, probably not (though Plato surely started it the way he did to introduce the subject of coercion). Friends take liberties with one another, and Socrates doesn’t really protest. But surely the overwhelmingly important feature of the context is how Socrates feels about what transpires. Of course, Republic is conveniently written in first person from his perspective, so we know he wasn’t feeling victimized. But in the real world, in dealing with everyday situations, normal, sensible people pay attention to clues about the context and how others are reacting. If it becomes clear that not everyone’s on the same page, they step back and clarify things; if someone is reacting in an unexpected way, then it is obviously a good time to ask them what they think is going on. And if they tell you what they think is going on, it’s important to listen to them.
Not only is that what most people do most of the time in general, it is how most people most of the time deal with sex as well. Only a tiny minority of men are rapists; there are so many rapes because rapists are frequently serial offenders. So I don’t understand why so many apparently non-rapist guys think there isn’t a clear difference between misunderstandings and rapes; when misunderstandings happen, people who are paying any attention at all notice and try to clear them up. Rapists may or may not be aware of what their victims are trying to communicate, but regardless they don’t try to clear anything up, they just go ahead and rape, because that’s what they wanted to do anyway.
@NWO: That flowchart is hysterical. It should be called the “feminists flowchart to getting laid”. Which of course means you won’t get laid. “Feminists killing romance…since 1967”. BWWWAAAA!!
We can also add:
Can I look at you?
Can I look at you seductively?
Can I approach you?
Can I say hello? –> http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/05/the-politics-of-hello/
Can I talk to you?
Can I ask if I can ask you to go on a date with me?
A lot of feminists fail to see that most communication can be and is done non-verbally. They seem to have no understanding of men using a woman’s body language and facial expressions to determine if she is enjoying or not enjoying the interaction.
Brandon The Rape Apologist: Continuing to enact rape apologism for all and sundry to see.
Brandon, there is one charitable (and plausible and reasonable) way to interpret some of the feminist advice, which I should probably add as my comment could be taken as criticizing the feminist advice. The advice is perhaps specifically directed at guys who frequently find themselves involved in “misunderstandings,” accused of doing things or blamed for offending people when their actions seemed completely harmless to them and they’re sure people are over-reacting. Those guys are clearly not having much success with this non-verbal communication thing, and so perhaps need to consider engaging in more verbal communication and paying more attention to verbal communication as a back-up plan to avoid further difficulties.