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“I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey … ” A visit to Reddit’s “seduction” community.

If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.

Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.

The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:

So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.

Let’s have the deets!

A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.

Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a  little … awkward.

Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.

Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?

I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.

It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.

Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.

PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:

I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.

Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.

Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.

Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”

Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.

So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.

Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.

Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”

Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!

Fangs78 added:

Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.

Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”

It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”

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Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Not fighting back is the new consent.

Er, I mean not fighting back hard enough is the new consent. A little fighting back is, apparently, foreplay.

Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.

What gets me (now that I’m completely desensitized to rape cheerleading) is: how good can that sex be? This isn’t going to be a real indulgent sensual experience, nor is it going to create a beautiful bond between the two of you. This is going to be like jerking off with someone else’s body. Is that really so much better than just jerking off?

Then again, I guess it’s about power not sex.

Xanthe
Xanthe
9 years ago

Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.

Try giving up after the first time they stop you, because that’s a clear signal that it’s unwanted. And better still, think before you do it the first time.
Geez.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Oh, and I’ll just leave this here.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/03/24/why-rape-isnt-one-big-misunderstanding/

The TL;DR is that when they asked young men “how would you say you didn’t want sex?” they said they’d give subtle signals and try to be polite. When they asked them “is it rape to have sex with someone who’s giving subtle ‘no’ signals and trying to be polite?”–of course not, you can’t expect men to pick up on subtle signals!

Although the Seduction guys are going one better there. They’re admitting that they do pick up subtle (and not subtle) signals, but then making the conscious decision to ignore them.

NullPointer
NullPointer
9 years ago

Ugh. That whole “no, I’m waiting for a REAL no” thing is how I got raped.

I’m personally a fan of the concept of “anything but ‘yes’ is a real no”.

Amused
9 years ago

I remember reading about an experiment at some college (I’ll try to find the link later), in which a group of men were first asked how they would turn a girl down after a date that did not go so well. Without exception, the men said something along the lines of “I’d tell her I’m really tired” or “I’d try to act disinterested and not in the mood and eventually she’ll get the hint”.

Then, they were asked how they would expect the woman to turn them down if the roles were reversed. Again, the men were in agreement that the woman should communicate her disinterest in subtle ways, but without making it hurtful.

And then they were asked about rape. In other words, if you are not getting the hint, at what point does it become rape?

All of a sudden, the men did a complete 180 on their position about gentle turn-downs. All of a sudden, it was all how men can’t read clues, or can’t understand English, or can’t understand women, or can’t understand anything. All of a sudden, even saying “no” was not enough to let a man know he should stop. Someone said “no” can only be taken meaningfully if the woman makes eye contact and looks really mad (which means a woman who’s already been flipped over on her stomach is out of luck, I guess), another man said he wouldn’t be able to understand what a woman means by “no” unless she hit him. And so forth, and so on.

Yeah, it’s not rapey at all, dude. Just tell the judge the word “stop” is too ambiguous.

swgmigraines
9 years ago

I can’t understand at all why men would be worried about rape accusations when they’re armed with solid advice like this!

Amused
9 years ago

Thanks for the link, Holly. That’s the one I was talking about.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

They’re saying a woman has to say “No” at least ten times for it to be a “real no”. However, if a woman firmly says “No, stop” too soon, then she is being rude and hostile. The rules are made so that there are no correct way to say no. Ugh.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Yeah, if you have to qualify your “advice” like that, it’s rapey as all get out.

Leo Salloum
Leo Salloum
9 years ago

I want to agree with Holly’s first post about how these ‘seduction’ types really seem to be having lousy sex. I kind of wish that they could somehow skip the sex part, and get straight to the bragging to their friends part, which is what they seem to be interested in. If someone just went around at a club distributing panties (or some other trophy object; used condoms?) to dudes so that they could claim to have gotten laid already, then would that be a solution? Could the PUAs just go the hell home?

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

I can’t understand at all why men would be worried about rape accusations when they’re armed with solid advice like this!

I can understand why they’re terribly worried about rape accusations when they have sex, but strangely unworried about the possibility that someone they hadn’t had sex with would accuse them.

If you take the face-value explanation of “women lie for mysterious woman reasons and people believe them!”, this makes no sense–why would a woman need to have sex with someone to false-accuse him? It means you won’t have DNA evidence, but you don’t need that to convict, and lots of real rapes don’t leave recoverable DNA evidence.

But if their idea of “sex” is barely (or not at all) distinguishable from rape, then it makes perfect sense that they’d only be worried about “false” rape accusations after sex.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

>>Not fighting back is the new consent.

I would say it’s the OLD consent. As far as the mainstream goes, the feminist position is the new and radical one, and that’s why we need to keep pushing for it.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

I should start a business with the words “I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU” on items to give to the person you actually want to have sex with. A tee shirt, a card, a tea towel, what have you-it helps those who are very hesitant about actually saying something.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth:

You could even diversify and have “I WANT TO HAVE MUTUAL MASTURBATION WITH YOU, BUT NO PENETRATION”, “I WANT YOU TO TIE ME UP”, “I MAY WANT TO CUDDLE AND MAKE OUT BUT I’M NOT TAKING OFF MY CLOTHES” and more! Think of all the money you could make, and you’d only have to pay me a piddly royalty for all those ideas I just gave you. 😉

no more mr nice guy
9 years ago

It’s called LMR (last minute resistance), PUA say that when women say “no” they mean “yes” and therefore guys should insist. There are guys that were accused of date-rape after doing this. PUAs are really a bunch of crooks.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Now I kind of want to print up a bunch of business cards saying things like “MAKING OUT, BUT HANDS OFF THE SWIMSUIT AREA”, “OVER THE PANTIES ONLY BUSTER”, and “INTERCOURSE BUT YOU HAVE TO STOP IF I SAY WHEN.” I could always give out or exchange cards as the evening progressed, of course, and my partner should feel free to set similar limits of his own.

Also, importantly, on each card: “NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED.”

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

@Holly: Maybe we ought to make an iOS app instead. Save some trees. 😉

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Holly, shouldn’t that be: “NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED IN CAPITAL LETTERS.” Just to make it extra legal.

Lady Zombie
Lady Zombie
9 years ago

…it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.

No seriously, what about Teh Bonerz?!

Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.

Because nothing gets a woman hotter than disrespecting her boundaries and consent. Amirite fellas?

Escalate until they tell you to stop.

Because making her wonder if she’s about to get raped makes for great sexy times!

[/sarcasm]

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

In seriousness, though, I wouldn’t want to give someone the card and then have them play No-Takey-Backsies, you have to make out with me now that you gave me the card. I know revocable consent is one of those things that become suddenly baffling when convenient.

So maybe an iOS app would be better. It could log time of consent given as well as time revoked if necessary.

kyso k
kyso k
9 years ago

I’d buy that whole line of calling cards and keep them with my origami condom holder that folds out to a little condom bed.

And is there any move suaver than the ‘grab her hand and cram it on my junk’? I can only think of one other helpful sexytime move that the ladies love more.

Noadi
9 years ago

Posts like this remind me of how lucky I’ve been with my relationships. My boyfriend would absolutely stop the minute I told him to and I don’t think he’d even contemplate anything else. He doesn’t have explicit consent every time we do something sexual because we’ve been together almost two years and we’ve actually discussed this and have implicit consent unless it’s revoked (yay for sleepy morning sex!). That’s the advantage that a long term relationship has, we don’t need to worry about getting explicit consent every time because we know each other so well.

When we first started seeing each other though? It was totally different, we didn’t know what the other person liked or disliked yet or what the more subtle signals were that the other was in the mood (or able to be enticed into being in the mood) so we talked about it. Why is this such a difficult concept for people? All it takes is seeing you partner as another human being with a brain and feelings. Oh wait, I think I found the problem…

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Now I’m working out features for that app.

1. List of “typical” sex acts (tricksy, I know) with of course fill-in-your-own options.
2. Ability to separately select “YES” acts and “BUT NOT” acts for each consent.
3. Logging time of consent with entry of a password.
4. Option to create a false password that makes the app appear to react the same way as the real password, but adds a “silent alarm” to the log.
5. Once consent has been logged, the app goes into a mode where pressing any button will log “consent revoked” and a new password must be entered to re-log “consent given.”

Okay, it’s a little nerdy, but I think for people who are geeky enough to enjoy setting up prefab consent macros and triggering them with a gesture password to save time, it could be… it’s really nerdy.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

#5 should be “the password must be re-entered.” I don’t mean you’d have to make up a new one because you bumped the phone. That’s a little too extra-harsh.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Oh, and also there’s a “bump” feature where if two people have the app and have sex, they can exchange (read-only) logs afterwards.

Now that would prove to your buddies that you really got laid…

Amanda Marcotte (@AmandaMarcotte)

Just remember, ladies: You have to be abrupt and scream at the top of your lungs, or else you consented. And if you are abrupt and scream at the top of your lungs, you are a paranoid bitch who thinks all men are rapists or something.

You can’t win.

I mean, obviously, with men who only have sex with women who want to have sex with them, you can win. But not these assholes.

Arks
Arks
9 years ago

In woman-land, permission is the hallmark of the beta. This article might sound problematic, but like most things wrong with the world it is both created by and enabled by women. You folks complain about men’s paranoia over false rape accusations a lot, but can you really blame us? These days the only way to fuck a woman and not be considered a wimpy emasculated eunuch afterwards is to put her in the boot of your car, drive to your secluded forest cabin and hope she’s secretly ok with the whole thing.

Amanda Marcotte (@AmandaMarcotte)

Holly, the answer to your question is simple: They don’t give a shit if the sex is hot. What they care about is getting their dicks wet so they can brag about it to other guys. Hot sex is probably just disturbing to them, anyway. It means a woman is having fun in their presence, which probably pisses them off.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

These days the only way to fuck a woman and not be considered a wimpy emasculated eunuch afterwards is to put her in the boot of your car, drive to your secluded forest cabin and hope she’s secretly ok with the whole thing.

Yep, that’s an excellent synopsis of rape culture. A little exaggerated of course, but that’s the ultimate point of rape culture–convincing men they aren’t real men unless their sex is as close to rape as possible.

This is why we need feminism.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Hot sex is probably just disturbing to them, anyway. It means a woman is having fun in their presence, which probably pisses them off.

This. They also look down upon a woman for showing enthusiastic consent because that looks too slutty. They want a “challenge”.

MissPrism
MissPrism
9 years ago

Most of this is horrifying, but there’s a dash of hilarious when he whinges about women not “noticing” his erection. O, if she only knew! she would immediately perceive her solemn duty to bonk him!
Look, if you are a lady and you snog guys, they tend to get boners. It is not a remarkable occurrence, so we do not remark upon it.

johnnykaje
9 years ago

“These days the only way to fuck a woman and not be considered a wimpy emasculated eunuch afterwards is to put her in the boot of your car, drive to your secluded forest cabin and hope she’s secretly ok with the whole thing.”

Fucking women is emasculating. Huh. Learn something new every day.

You know what would be a really masculine thing to fuck? Chuck Norris. Or

johnnykaje
9 years ago

…or a bear.

(accidentally hit “submit” too soon.

Emily Blackburn
9 years ago

Things that do NOT happen during a good sexual experience:
– Forcing your hands onto the other person’s genitals
– Forcing their hand onto your genitals
– Continuing after they have said no nine or ten times
– Using the advice of someone who is worried their advice may be just a little bit too rapey
– Making your erection freaking known!!

I guess making your erection freaking known can be part of good sex, but not in this sense of ‘hey you there, can’t you tell I have a boner? Why in heaven’s name aren’t you doing anything about it?!’

Things that do happen during a good sexual experience:
– Enthusiastic consent
– HAVING SEX WITH SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU
– Tingly happy feelings

Christina M. Jones
9 years ago

I would buy this app, Holly. Actually, I would buy one for my daughter and, if I should ever break up with my current bf, for myself and, in a couple of years, for my son.

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

In woman-land, permission is the hallmark of the beta.

Well, then, I’m proud to be a beta.

Raincitygirl
9 years ago

I honestly can’t tell if Arks is being sarcastic or not. That worries me a little.

As for the original poster, maybe his relationships would go somewhere beyond light making out if he quit pushing so damn hard (and scaring off women by grabbing their hands and putting them on his junk). If a woman wants to do some light making out but nothing below the belt on the first date, then pressuring her for more is a surefire way to ensure there won’t be a second date. Because buddy already proved he doesn’t respect her boundaries. Back in the Stone Ages when I was still dating boys, that kind of thing was a big red flag for me. Still is a red flag, although I don’t have the specific problem of my dates grabbing my hand and shoving it on their erection. Men are not the only people capable of not listening when somebody doesn’t feel like doing something sexual.

If our OP would just resign himself to the fact that plenty of women don’t want to have actual sex on the first date, and ENJOY the dating process, he might get further into said process. Dating is fun. You get to meet someone new that you (hopefully) like, you get to flirt with them, tell your old stories to someone who hasn’t heard them before, do enjoyable stuff like eat dinner out or see a movie or whatever. These are all good things, even without adding in sex. If the dating process is causing the OP to click with the girl he’s dating, then eventually the sex will happen. If the only thing he’s dating for is to try and get sex, he’ll end up turning off girls who are interested in an emotional component as well as sex. Most people date because they want a boyfriend or girlfriend at the end of the process, not just to scratch someone’s itch.

Does the OP not realize that there are people out there who are looking for no-strings-attached sex? He doesn’t have to date to have sex. Hell, he’d probably have better luck if he was upfront about what he wanted and left the dating field open to men who are looking for a girlfriend.

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

I hope this advice doesn’t sounds murderey, but you need to keep beating them until they seriously tell you no.

Either you should get a firm “no, stop beating me you’re going to kill me” or you should be beating the shit out of them. Everything in the middle is working against you.

Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “you’re hurting me” or “ow”) is the signal. Escalate until they pass out from injury or actually die.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

You know something, Arks? I don’t think I’m inclined to accept someone with a seething, irrational contempt for women as an unbiased source on What Women are Like.

Herp Derp
Herp Derp
9 years ago

Oh god Quackers, that just sums up everything that’s wrong with this so perfectly.

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

I think the unstated assumption is that if a man has an erection, a woman had an obligation to do something about it, or else she will cause the man Terrible Suffering. This is, of course, bullshit; the most it would cause is frustration–which is, well, frustrating, but certainly no justification for rape.

But I’m just a Big Mangina, so what do I know?

Raincitygirl
9 years ago

Quackers, you rule!

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Someone should write the app while I get to work on the card set. And yes, all of the suggestions are good and should be added.

Including that “consent is revokable at any time by either party for any reason. Any whining done because of the revoking carries risk of non-repetition of any prior acts.”

Lauralot
Lauralot
9 years ago

Well, this post is a depressing thing to come home to.

In other news, just saw The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and it rocks, everyone should check it out. If that makes us all “sniveling manginas” or whatever, well, that’s the price you’ll have to pay.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
9 years ago

“You folks complain about men’s paranoia over false rape accusations a lot, but can you really blame us?”

I really want to know how many MRAs have actually been falsely accused, how many have never been accused at all but live in constant fear of them and say that false accusations are a global epidemic, and how many have actually done something that could be considered rape but are in denial. If you follow the rules, ask for consent and receive it, then you won’t have to worry about “false” accusations. But given the views many MRAs (and Arks himself) seem to have about women, I have a hard time believing all these men are just poor innocent victims of evil women.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

Appropriate uses of that opening line:

“I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey, but you should always floss as well as brush your teeth.”
“I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey, but you should check your tire pressure regularly.”
“I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey, but it’s important not to eat eggs with fine silverware.”
“I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey, but guinea pigs should be housed with a same-sex companion.”

See? There’s lots of advice you can give that isn’t rapey!

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

I can only think of one other helpful sexytime move that the ladies love more.

Ah, yes, the attempted guiding of the head to the junk for oral. Never been a fan of that move.

bobbyjo (@bobbyjo1950)

It gets clearer and clearer folks. All the fuss coming from these mra dudes is stemming from their inability to form healthy emotional and sexual relationships with a women. They advocate rape? Why, because they can’t get a woman to be interested in them. There is no doubt they are misogynists. Their sites need to be pointed out to the FBI. https://tips.fbi.gov/. What’s the story with their handful of sites anyway? It’s not like people don’t know it’s the same 10 sour grapes mra dudes making websites and blogs, posting all over the internet and youtube pretending to be 100 men when it’s only a small handful.

bobbyjo (@bobbyjo1950)

They promote the false rape society because they themselves are the perpetrators of rape and they have a lot to defend.

bobbyjo (@bobbyjo1950)

Crum, these mra dudes are not poor innocent victims of evil women, they are victims of their own minds. They treat themselves like shit. They disrespect themselves each and every time they promote violence, hate and rape against all the women who they think is above them. It’s no wonder they are so miserable. They are self-abusive.

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