So you may have seen the story yesterday about the University of Vermont fraternity that was suspended for sending out a charming little survey that allegedly asked, among other things, “If you could rape someone, who would it be?” (FWIW, the frat now says it was the work of an individual frat member, not the chapter.)
Reading about this incident, I’m guessing that you probably didn’t ask yourself: “I wonder how the guys at the False Rape Society will use this news to push their own agenda?” Heck, I didn’t even think to ask myself that question. But while doing the rounds of the MRA blogs I’ve discovered the answer to that question, and here it is: FRS head honcho Pierce Harlan described the survey as “perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape,” then denounced it as “indefensible,” then ranted about the evils of false rape accusations. I guess that isn’t really shocking at all.
First, Harlan offered this take on the “who would you rape” question:
I assume the survey was sick humor, a crude satire of the fratboy culture, and perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape.
Yes, because any time men make rape jokes it’s probably because, you know, feminism, and its wacky obsession with rape.
Then Harlan went on to suggest that rape was no laughing matter – especially when it comes to rape that doesn’t happen:
Whatever it was intended to be, ultimately it is indefensible, because trivializing the word “rape” is no laughing matter, whether it’s a joke about the rape of male prisoners, or the fantasy “rape” of women, or a false rape claim intended to get a guy in, or a woman out of, trouble.
Well, that was quick. Let’s not talk about the trivialization of real rape. Let’s talk about the epidemic of “false rape accusations” that Harlan has convinced himself is the real problem here.
With nary a pause, Harlan moved on to complain about hypothetical feminists making a big deal out of this survey instead of joining him on his crusade:
There most certainly will be an outcry in the feminist blogosphere over this isolated incident
This what incident?
and it will be cited as proof positive to support the myth that ours is a “rape culture.”
Yeah, I wonder why casual jokes about rape would possibly be considered as part of “rape culture.”
A “rape culture,” of course, not only would tolerate but would condone such a puerile survey. Our society does neither. The only “rape” jokes our society condones concerns prison rape — and that’s because society actually encourages prison rape as a sort of “added bonus” punishment for any hapless male who lands in prison. It is ironic that actual prison rape does not garner the outrage that this this sick fratboy humor is generating. Go figure.
This from a guy who doesn’t seem to have ever even bothered to mention the leading anti-prison rape organization, Just Detention, on his web site. (See here for more on the issue on Man Boobz.) Though he does offer three links on his main page to information about the statute of limitation for rape charges, in case anyone reading is worried about getting caught being falsely accused for something they did didn’t do a long time ago.
Meanwhile,rape jokes — and not just prison rape jokes — are everywhere. Harlan, I assume you are at least somewhat familiar with a little site called Reddit, where people not only laugh at rape jokes – they laugh at actual rape!
Meanwhile, in the comments on Harlan’s article, some False Rape Society readers don’t even bother to pretend that the “rape survey” bothers them. According to the commenter called “bad,”
We should be celebrating young men who stand up against misandry. We should be celebrating the frat that said “no means yes” and we should be celebrating the frat that created this survey, if it’s a real story.
An anonymous commenter takes it a step further:
I do not condemn this action,
in fact, I wish I’d thought of it.
It is a brilliant and very appropriate response to the way young men are being treated by college campuses.
When the answer to “who would you like to treat like a rapist” is “all college men”, I think that asking them who they’d like to rape is more than fair.
But it is Harlan’s response to these comments that is the most revealing:
By the way, I read the reaction of Bad and others as a natural backlash … against the unconscionable PC culture of misandry on campus. I happen to disagree with those who suggest this was acceptable, but their remarks should not be construed as evidence that we live in a “rape culture.” Like Steve, I read their comments more as an affirmation that we live in a false rape culture–a culture that more and more men are finding intolerable.
I, on the other hand, doubt that these young men have the first clue about misandry, feminism, or how colleges run roughshod over the rights of young men. I am always amazed when we hear from falsely accused people who “had not idea this goes on.” My guess is they were just being being “funny.” I would, frankly, love to find out I am wrong, and that not only would they never call for a woman to be actually raped, but that this was a protest against the pendulum swinging too far. In that case, I am still not sure I could find it acceptable but it would initiate an entirely different dialogue.
So the survey is “indefensible,” yet a totally understandable reaction to, and protest against, an “unconscionable PC culture of misandry.”
Got it.
EDITED TO ADD: Harlan has written a response, of sorts, to this post. It is a bit — what’s the word I’m looking for here? — zany.
Chronic pain means I have to ask my boyfriend to stop or change what he’s doing quite often. He doesn’t have an issue with that, because strangely, he’s not interested in having sex with someone who doesn’t want it. The idea of continuing past the point where I’ve withdrawn consent is disgusting to him. I know, crazy right?
He stops immediately as soon as I tell him. He doesn’t say “I know this is painful for you and you’ve withdrawn consent but it feels good so 5 more seconds,” or “I know this is painful for you and you’ve withdrawn consent but now that I’ve penetrated you your body belongs to me,” or “I know this is painful for you and you’ve withdrawn consent but I value my orgasm more than your bodily autonomy.” Gross.
@Crumbelievable
Not that I need to answer but of course I have. And yes I was terrible at it. My motto is, first to orgasm is the winner. And I am undefeated.
NWO, don’t think about a stopwatch. Nobody’s got a stopwatch in bed. Think about the dialogue.
GOOD!
*umf umf*
“Um, we need to stop, this is starting to hurt.”
“Oh, shit, sorry.”
*out*
BAD!
*umf umf*
“Um, we need to stop, this is starting to hurt.”
*keeps going as long as he can get away with, whatever that is*
Do you see the difference? Does anything about this sink into your head?
“Are you gonna throw some 15 year old kid in juvie for 5 seconds? Hell, give him another 3 seconds and he’ll be done.”
…..Wow……I can’t even come up with some snarky retort to this. That is horrifying.
NWO: Yeah, obviously it occasionally happens. But guess what? Whenever that happens, the woman does not then go and report her partner as a rapist. If she tells him to stop and he says “just five more seconds, please! I’m nearly done!” Then she SHOULD. That mentality is the mentality of a rapist — that one’s own pleasure overrides another’s right to bodily autonomy and to not be in pain.
Monsieur sans Nom, did you somehow not notice the rest of my comment, in which I cited a specific study on prison rape, which was linked to on the website of an anti-prison-rape group, that estimated that the number of rapes within prison was far less than the number of rapes outside of prison?
“…..Wow……I can’t even come up with some snarky retort to this. That is horrifying.”
Jesus. Just in case we forget for one second that NWO views women as receptacles.
@Holly Pervocracy
That’s fine and dandy. Except there was a case about a year or so back where a kid didn’t stop right away. The determining factor was 6 seconds. That kid served time. This was a kid, his first time, the girl was naked and he was excited. I’m sure he didn’t forget his first time. That kid is classified as a rapist.
Ok,He didn’t use it as an opportunity to preach about the awfulness of a false rape accusation he used it as an opportunity to point out the hypocrisy of those who cry out against rape,But look the other way when a FRA happens. Let’s go through these one by one ok:
It was a poke at how much feminist attention it was getting
He was simply saying that NOTHING that has anything to do with rape is funny,Well wouldn’t that include false rape accusations?
The incident at this university has had nothing to do with any other events involving frat boys so it’s isolated from the rest hence the term “isolated incident”
Cruel jokes don’t mean that there is an epidemic of people condoning rape,There are jokes about murder yet i never hear of a “murder culture”
But prison rape really doesn’t get the same attention as other rape jokes do.-“Don’t drop the soap” would have to be the biggest rape joke of all time & the only one where you never hear people upset about it. & his website is about false accusations,Not rape so why would there be links to anti rape websites,That’s not what his websites supposed to be about,It’s about FRA’s as well as the hypocrisy of those who ignore them.
First,That was not the official stance of FRS just a reader/commenter. Second,I believe what that person was trying to say is that it is good for people to stand up against what is wrong & what they feel is wrong is treating everything like it is a sign of rape culture when it isn’t & this was just meant to poke fun at that.
As young college men are often treated like rapists(or potential ones) the second they get through the door the reader was saying that it would make sense that if you treat all men like animals,We might as well act like one.
The point was that while the survey was not appropriate,It was seen as something possibly meant to counter the culture of misandry on college campuses,As if to say “You think I’m an animal? Well then i might as well act like one!”-The right way to do it,Perhaps not.Maybe it was the wrong thing,but at least someone did something.
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/12/assholez-who-despise-falsely-accused.html
Are we reading the same posts here? Maybe there is some editing going on behind the scenes that posts random sentences into my posts that I didn’t type that leads you to believe I “demand to be seen as a victim”? I’d really like to know.
Please quote my post where you feel that I “demand to be seen as a victim” and then describe what exact sentence or paragraph makes you feel that I “demand to be seen as a victim”. Otherwise you are just straw manning or you are reading something completely different from what I typed on my PC.
Yes, avoiding the question is another hallmark of a losing debater. If you can’t answer a simple question, how can one expect you to understand the intricacies of our complex society regarding rape?
That kid is a rapist, NWO.
It’s not about stopwatches.
It’s about having the empathy (a word you understand about as well as “zie”) to realize what it’s like to say “stop” and be ignored in a moment like that. Maybe it’s only a couple seconds, but you don’t know that. In the moment, all you know is that someone has taken control of your body away from you and you don’t know when they’re going to give it back.
So, SexBots, if someone goes to a frat party and gets murdered, they’re at least half responsible because frat guys are douchebags and douchebags are expected to murder people?
Also, you don’t know what Ad Hominem means.
Done
Wow, nice rape joke, Owly. Very funny.
Creep.
@Sharculese ‘why do you want cdc to do bad science?’
I have already addressed this. It is inaccurate for the study to say that a % of rapes happen to men in the United states having not included areas where male rape is most likely and not including enveloplment, you agree with me on the envelopment part. So do you agree that not including envelopment as rape makes the ‘1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives’ from the study very inaccurate, you yourself have said that the under reporting of rape by men and women makes the study less accurate due to social stigma.
Accurate science is good science.
‘which policy makers? why are they looking at this study? what’s the objective? these are questions that have to be answered before you’
I don’t realy consider this a gendered issue, saying the study is inaccurate. You doubt policy makers in the USA as well as other nations will read a national study by the CDC?
‘i also recognize that defining rape is going to be subject to debate, and i can’t be ‘offended’ about the inclusion of certain phenomena. ‘
‘I assume you have reasons to believe what you do’
‘rape is when a rapists rapes someone’ is unhelpful and intellectually lazy.’
I would use a less lazy criteria if I where to launch a national study on rape, for now it is as bland as can be.
Still we agree on envelopment, progress has been made.
You really have to wonder what the true motive of people is who insist that rape of women is not that big a problem. You have to question why they try to make excuses for it, or tell women they are lying, or asked for it, or are at fault in some way. Or why they insist in the face of a large body of evidence that there is a huge fucking problem regarding rape, they still try to trivialize that face. It makes you wonder why when awareness is made or steps are taken to stop it, they scream bloody murder, try to change the subject, and try to silence you.
It’s very suspect.
NWO: Imagine for a minute that you’re, I don’t know, hanging out with a friend. He-or-she (because-apparently-zie-isn’t-a-real-word-lol) decides to horse around and grabs your arm and twists it behind your back. But it really fucking hurts. Please seriously imagine this for a moment. Imagine what it is like. You are thinking “OW! OW! NOT FUNNY!” You shout(/say/whatever) “ow! Stop! That hurts!” or anything along those lines. But your friend keeps laughing and doesn’t let go.
This is by no means a perfect analogy, but I am trying to understand if you are even able to imagine yourself in a similar situation and understand why it would suck and be at least kind of scary for someone not to stop. While he-or-she is holding your arm behind your back — ow, is it almost getting dislocated? it sure feels like it! — do you give a flying shit if they waited only 4.5 seconds instead of 5 whole seconds? No. Because it is obvious in either case that they ignored your request that they stop — they ignored your bodily autonomy.
Quackers – That gets to me. Like, I don’t really have proof that malaria is a huge problem. I’ve been told it is, and have no reason to doubt, and I’ve donated to mosquito-net funds. But I’ve never really been a malaria skeptic. If I were, the most I’d do is… not donate, I guess. I’m not sure what it would take to get me angry about the overreporting of malaria.
Unless, of course, I was a closet mosquito.
Holly: Now I’m imagining mosquitoes getting pissed off and holding protests, carrying signs with catchy anti-malaria-treatment slogans and yelling chants into megaphones…
The case that NWO is talking about: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/16/AR2008041602921.html
To me the most problematic part is that she was 18 and the two boys were 15. She shouldn’t have had sex with either one of them. And, just as we speculated here, the reason she asked the second boy to stop was because she was in pain.
The fact remains that a person has the right to say when and how he or she is willing to have sex.
NWO, do you believe men do not have the right to stop sex once it has started? If he injured his penis, or the woman decides to jam something into his rectum, he has no right to stop the activity? If you don’t, you’re a hypocrite.
@Quackers:
“You really have to wonder what the true motive of people is who insist that rape of women is not that big a problem.”
And of course, they never have the most enlightened views of women either.
@NWO
ah yes, the Kanin study. The one study that MRAs regard as irrefutable and God sent and so methodologically flawed its not even funny. He doesn’t even name the police department or city he based the study on so you can’t even check if his findings are true. And we all know how unbiased police are when it comes to rape!
I can link you to more reasons why that study is flawed, but you won’t even read them since you are committed to your own world view. Actually I think David did a post on it too.
Know also that The British Home Office study showed false rape accusations to be 8%
Yeah, this isn’t a misunderstanding.
(NWO can always say she’s lying, but if that’s the case, why not lie big? Why not say she never consented at all? Probably because she’s telling the truth.)
@Quackers Mras, agendas, etc. Can we also question the motives of everyone who rejects what people say out of hand because of some percieved political position.
This has been a fine thread, one that has been of far more interest to me than the recent MRA images and MRAL’s confession of loneliness and trolling. I think I have made my view of the study clear.
If someone told you that 1 in 5 people you have ever met will catch malaria in their life time while you personally had no experience of anyone having caught malaria you would be suspicious. Obviously rape is under reported and people don’t share it with random strangers, but if none of your close family and friends even mention it either then it becomes harder to believe still. If then all the conviction rates point that its closer to 0.3% of people who are raped it becomes even easier to doubt.
To use malaria like yourself.
If someone says 1 in 5 people catch malaria in the USA, but noone you know has ever caught malaria, and only 0.3% of people go to their doctors with malaria you may have your doubts?
Personally I don’t know what the rate of rape is, 0.3%(british crime survey) from conviction rates seems low to me but then 1 in 4 from older studies seem high. I’m more likely to believe the experts in the field but for some reason they can’t seem to agree with each other either.
‘Know also that The British Home Office study showed false rape accusations to be 8%’
And the fbi showed it to be atleast 20%
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html
Quite off topic though, but seeing how I have alterior motives etc.