So you may have seen the story yesterday about the University of Vermont fraternity that was suspended for sending out a charming little survey that allegedly asked, among other things, “If you could rape someone, who would it be?” (FWIW, the frat now says it was the work of an individual frat member, not the chapter.)
Reading about this incident, I’m guessing that you probably didn’t ask yourself: “I wonder how the guys at the False Rape Society will use this news to push their own agenda?” Heck, I didn’t even think to ask myself that question. But while doing the rounds of the MRA blogs I’ve discovered the answer to that question, and here it is: FRS head honcho Pierce Harlan described the survey as “perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape,” then denounced it as “indefensible,” then ranted about the evils of false rape accusations. I guess that isn’t really shocking at all.
First, Harlan offered this take on the “who would you rape” question:
I assume the survey was sick humor, a crude satire of the fratboy culture, and perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape.
Yes, because any time men make rape jokes it’s probably because, you know, feminism, and its wacky obsession with rape.
Then Harlan went on to suggest that rape was no laughing matter – especially when it comes to rape that doesn’t happen:
Whatever it was intended to be, ultimately it is indefensible, because trivializing the word “rape” is no laughing matter, whether it’s a joke about the rape of male prisoners, or the fantasy “rape” of women, or a false rape claim intended to get a guy in, or a woman out of, trouble.
Well, that was quick. Let’s not talk about the trivialization of real rape. Let’s talk about the epidemic of “false rape accusations” that Harlan has convinced himself is the real problem here.
With nary a pause, Harlan moved on to complain about hypothetical feminists making a big deal out of this survey instead of joining him on his crusade:
There most certainly will be an outcry in the feminist blogosphere over this isolated incident
This what incident?
and it will be cited as proof positive to support the myth that ours is a “rape culture.”
Yeah, I wonder why casual jokes about rape would possibly be considered as part of “rape culture.”
A “rape culture,” of course, not only would tolerate but would condone such a puerile survey. Our society does neither. The only “rape” jokes our society condones concerns prison rape — and that’s because society actually encourages prison rape as a sort of “added bonus” punishment for any hapless male who lands in prison. It is ironic that actual prison rape does not garner the outrage that this this sick fratboy humor is generating. Go figure.
This from a guy who doesn’t seem to have ever even bothered to mention the leading anti-prison rape organization, Just Detention, on his web site. (See here for more on the issue on Man Boobz.) Though he does offer three links on his main page to information about the statute of limitation for rape charges, in case anyone reading is worried about getting caught being falsely accused for something they did didn’t do a long time ago.
Meanwhile,rape jokes — and not just prison rape jokes — are everywhere. Harlan, I assume you are at least somewhat familiar with a little site called Reddit, where people not only laugh at rape jokes – they laugh at actual rape!
Meanwhile, in the comments on Harlan’s article, some False Rape Society readers don’t even bother to pretend that the “rape survey” bothers them. According to the commenter called “bad,”
We should be celebrating young men who stand up against misandry. We should be celebrating the frat that said “no means yes” and we should be celebrating the frat that created this survey, if it’s a real story.
An anonymous commenter takes it a step further:
I do not condemn this action,
in fact, I wish I’d thought of it.
It is a brilliant and very appropriate response to the way young men are being treated by college campuses.
When the answer to “who would you like to treat like a rapist” is “all college men”, I think that asking them who they’d like to rape is more than fair.
But it is Harlan’s response to these comments that is the most revealing:
By the way, I read the reaction of Bad and others as a natural backlash … against the unconscionable PC culture of misandry on campus. I happen to disagree with those who suggest this was acceptable, but their remarks should not be construed as evidence that we live in a “rape culture.” Like Steve, I read their comments more as an affirmation that we live in a false rape culture–a culture that more and more men are finding intolerable.
I, on the other hand, doubt that these young men have the first clue about misandry, feminism, or how colleges run roughshod over the rights of young men. I am always amazed when we hear from falsely accused people who “had not idea this goes on.” My guess is they were just being being “funny.” I would, frankly, love to find out I am wrong, and that not only would they never call for a woman to be actually raped, but that this was a protest against the pendulum swinging too far. In that case, I am still not sure I could find it acceptable but it would initiate an entirely different dialogue.
So the survey is “indefensible,” yet a totally understandable reaction to, and protest against, an “unconscionable PC culture of misandry.”
Got it.
EDITED TO ADD: Harlan has written a response, of sorts, to this post. It is a bit — what’s the word I’m looking for here? — zany.
@Holly Pervocracy
Tell me Holly, what should the punishment be for a woman who falsely accuses a man for revenge, caught cheating, or one of the many other excuses?
NWO, I have a friend named Pat. If I tell you a story about Pat but do not mention Pat’s gender, the polite response from you is:
“That was an interesting story about Pat. Zie sounds like a nice person.”
This does not mean that Pat doesn’t have a gender! (Pat may not. But like I said, I’ll get the cat to understand this first.) Pat may well be a he or a she! But since you do not know, it is a neutral word!
NWO: Despite what you think, the world is not ruled by your whims. If a person prefers to be referred to by a neutral pronoun, why the fuck do you even give a shit? I’m failing to see how such a thing could have any impact whatsoever on your life for weal or for woe and I’m not seeing it. You’re just a hateful asshat.
Drawing and quartering and salting all the wounds and ripping out the still-beating heart and feeding it to ugly dogs and making a decree throughout the kingdom that her name shall never be spoken again. Would anything less satisfy you?
…Oh fuck, now you got me doing the nasty sarcasm. I’m not having a good day and should probably take a Vicodin.
(not a druggie, recovering from surgery and have a big hole in my neck)
augh, i cannot type. i can haz sleep nao?
@David Futrelle
I appreciate that Dave. However, it really doesn’t bother me. the gang calls me a fool for not equating intelligence with knowlege or ligustic ability. I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t. But thanks.
Again you fail: the new FBI definition is somewhat problematic (but less so than “carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will”, which only suggests forcible non-consensual PIV sex qualifies), since it doesn’t seem to cover envelopment. (According to google the new def’n is “penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” Important word intentionally bolded, in order to offend the Knights of NWO who say Ni!)
@Holly Pervocracy
I’m being serious. Is sarcasm all you can offer the men who’ve been falsely accused? Some have been killed by men who’ve been rallied by the very woman who was the false accuser. Many men have lost their jobs, are homeless bums, have been destroyed financially and socially.
doesn’t answer my question. why would it be useful to conflate two things that occur in wildly different conditions if your goals is to wipe out the conditions that make those things occur. that is a really silly thing to do.
typo! i meant to say i agree about being forced to penetrate. but the tone of your post, and that you jumped right to taking offense suggests that you really aren’t interested in looking scientifically about how and when rape occurs, you just want stats to play oppression olympics with. since cdc is funded with my tax dollars and not yours i’m just gonna go ahead and say i’m glad theyre not wasting their time doing that.
Then I think they’d rather have jobs, homes, money, and social lives than care exactly how thoroughly their accuser was punished.
You really don’t care about men, do you.
But the reason I’m not really engaging with you on this is that you consider a man falsely accused any time he didn’t leave marks. (And probably most of the time he did but she was dressed slutty, or he did but he has an excuse, or whatnot.)
@ David Futrelle I have seen other reports that suggest the occurance of prison rape is far higher, though nowhere near 1.3million as suggested in the CDC. However I have said the rates of female rape are exagerrated by including attempted rape and physical sexual assaults as weighted towards total female rape.
Also the removal of envelopment as a type of rape.
‘The overwhelming majority of these victims (90 percent or so) are male’
this also pointedly shows why not including the homeless in a study like this gives skewed results, a vast majority of both homeless and unsheltered homeless are men and the homeless are some 15 times more likely to experience violence. The exclusion of female prisoners and female homeless also suggests an unstatement of the female statistics since from the study you linked me ‘Female inmates in prison or jail were more than twice as likely as male inmates in prison or jail to report experiencing inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization.’ anyone who has been in prison for longer than the last 12months is missed by most of these statistics.
Citation needed. And provide an actual news source, not some hysterical whinging on one of your MRA blogs.
Likewise, show me the US bill that will raise the age of consent to 18 at a federal level. If it’s “about to be raised,” this means the bill has been written and should be readily available to read online.
not true, owlslave. i call you ignorant because you dont have knowledge. i call you incoherent because you lack linguistic ability. i call you a lazy thinker because your logical processes are totally fucked. but i dont think ive ever called you unintelligent.
“The gang calls me a fool for not equating intelligence with knowlege or ligustic ability.”
No one is mocking you because you don’t have a wealth of knowledge. I don’t have a wealth of knowledge on the subject of feminism or women’s rights either and am probably one the least knowledgeable posters on this website. It’s that when you don’t have the requisite knowledge, rather than saying, “I don’t know the statistics” or “Gee, I guess I was wrong about that”, you like to make up bullshit numbers and then change the subject or just run away when someone points our your errors
Speaking of which, where ever did you get that fact that homosexuals are fifteen more likely than straight people to be serial killers? To paraphrase Futurama, it’s interesting if true. I haven’t been able to find a single source though.
fifteen more times*
oh cool, i wanted to see if you’d engage in this little bit of self-indulgent sophistry. you should be ashamed of your hostility towards women and your victim blaming. it’s the fact that you aren’t that makes a creep.
Blitzgal – Don’t you know? The UN is the World Government!
You know how cities are inside counties which are inside states/provinces which are inside nations? Well, nations are inside the UN. That’s exactly how that works.
NWO, my post with the pronoun zie was in reference to a hypothetical person accused of a crime. I chose not to assign a gender to the hypothetical person so that the reader can imagine it is anyone. Zie and hir are gender neutral terms. The pronouns can also be used for genderqueer and trans individuals, if they choose to use them. It’s up to each person to decide what pronouns to use for hirself. If I do not know, I’ll err on the side of caution and use zie. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
I will note that in reply to my comment, NWO says
“You guys do remember that this is the dude who posted a pic of an 8 year old on the beach as an example of a slut.”
That’d be 8 year old girl.
He repeated his slur against a child. Because he is an asshole with no moral center.
SexBots thinks that raping someone is “douchey”, and that it is something a “douchebag” would naturally be expected to do. SexBots, you great moron, blowing smoke in someone’s face is douchey. Asking for one cookie and taking the whole box is douchey. Putting your finger on someone’s shirt, saying “hey, look at that,” and then hitting them in the nose when they look down is douchey. Rape is a violent crime. Do you lack empathy entirely, or are you only unable to extend it to women? Especially the ones who aren’t sleeping with you at this precise moment?
@Sharculese ‘why would it be useful to conflate two things that occur in wildly different conditions if your goals is to wipe out the conditions that make those things occur. that is a really silly thing to do. ‘
Because my goal would be to wipe out the conditions that make all rapes happen, not merely penetrative rape of men in the general public. When policy makers see this study saying 0.9% of men are raped will they continue to ignore the very real problem of male rape? This isn’t any kind of competition, I haven’t even implied that men suffer from rape more than women. I have said this report is inaccurate.
‘the tone of your post, and that you jumped right to taking offense suggests that you really aren’t interested in looking scientifically about how and when rape occurs’
This reply? ‘Well I’m trying not to be offended by you not considering those raped by envelopment as being raped. I suppose you have some reason to believe this but to me it’s pretty abhorrant.’
Saying you are being offensive but I assume you have reasons to believe what you do, thats hardly flying off the wall . It certainly shows a moderation that those calling NWO a rapist aren’t showing. I am pretty certain about how rape occurs, being that it’s when a rapist rapes someone. I don’t really understand what point your making here, me saying that this study is inaccurate because… (reasons in posts above) somehow means I’m not interested in scientific examination of rape? I took an interest in a study that discusses rape, I have found that study wanting. My desire for a more accurate study shows my that I am infact interested in looking scientifically about how and when rape occurs.
But I think some here have taken my posts correctly, including David which is handy if he decides later to do a post about the CDC study or the inevitable Mra who says something stupid about the study his reply will be more balanced.
Argh, given the conversation on this thread calling rape a “violent crime” was incredibly stupid of me. It’s a crime that violates someone else’s bodily autonomy I should have said. And its heinous, and it creates trauma, and it’s not just “something douchebags do.”
@Xanthe
And whose to say if there was consent?
What if there was initial consent? And the young man didn’t stop for 5 seconds after consent was withdrawn? How man seconds equals rape?
I foresee a shitload of men losing jobs, being incarcerated, be ostracized, being kicked out of school because of this new definition. Nothing good will come from this.
Well, I mean, those women aren’t having sex with him, so clearly they too are being douchey and if they’d just have sex with nice men like him bad things wouldn’t happen to them. That he says this proves how compassionate he is, and how wise a woman would be to choose to date him.
Ullere, we are in agreement that there is a skewing of the results, but not necessarily for the same principal reason. The US prison population is a little over 2 million people (figures from end-2009) and predominantly men, so this corresponds to about 1% of adults in the general population, and thus somewhere between 1% and 2% of all adult men. Not all prisoners are permanently incarcerated, so as I said, you would expect former prisoners to contribute to the general statistics for the population. I repeat, and this time would add as a citation a study by Human Rights Watch that male-on-male and female-on-female rape in prisons may be the least reported forms of rape (wording from Wikipedia; the HRW study is here). Basically, the 1 in 71 lifetime risk of rape for men is a risk that is self-reported by men in surveys, and I agree that it very probably lower than the real risk, owing to the harsh stigmatisation of male rape victims and non-willingness to report.
(I’d also mention that you would no doubt be aware that quibbling about the scientific methodology used by a survey is something that denialists seek to do to undermine its conclusions – so your criticism of the CDC should display sufficient nuance about what the survey set out to measure as well as the admission of its limitations, so that no one reading your objections would consider the possibility you are being a denialist.)