So you may have seen the story yesterday about the University of Vermont fraternity that was suspended for sending out a charming little survey that allegedly asked, among other things, “If you could rape someone, who would it be?” (FWIW, the frat now says it was the work of an individual frat member, not the chapter.)
Reading about this incident, I’m guessing that you probably didn’t ask yourself: “I wonder how the guys at the False Rape Society will use this news to push their own agenda?” Heck, I didn’t even think to ask myself that question. But while doing the rounds of the MRA blogs I’ve discovered the answer to that question, and here it is: FRS head honcho Pierce Harlan described the survey as “perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape,” then denounced it as “indefensible,” then ranted about the evils of false rape accusations. I guess that isn’t really shocking at all.
First, Harlan offered this take on the “who would you rape” question:
I assume the survey was sick humor, a crude satire of the fratboy culture, and perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape.
Yes, because any time men make rape jokes it’s probably because, you know, feminism, and its wacky obsession with rape.
Then Harlan went on to suggest that rape was no laughing matter – especially when it comes to rape that doesn’t happen:
Whatever it was intended to be, ultimately it is indefensible, because trivializing the word “rape” is no laughing matter, whether it’s a joke about the rape of male prisoners, or the fantasy “rape” of women, or a false rape claim intended to get a guy in, or a woman out of, trouble.
Well, that was quick. Let’s not talk about the trivialization of real rape. Let’s talk about the epidemic of “false rape accusations” that Harlan has convinced himself is the real problem here.
With nary a pause, Harlan moved on to complain about hypothetical feminists making a big deal out of this survey instead of joining him on his crusade:
There most certainly will be an outcry in the feminist blogosphere over this isolated incident
This what incident?
and it will be cited as proof positive to support the myth that ours is a “rape culture.”
Yeah, I wonder why casual jokes about rape would possibly be considered as part of “rape culture.”
A “rape culture,” of course, not only would tolerate but would condone such a puerile survey. Our society does neither. The only “rape” jokes our society condones concerns prison rape — and that’s because society actually encourages prison rape as a sort of “added bonus” punishment for any hapless male who lands in prison. It is ironic that actual prison rape does not garner the outrage that this this sick fratboy humor is generating. Go figure.
This from a guy who doesn’t seem to have ever even bothered to mention the leading anti-prison rape organization, Just Detention, on his web site. (See here for more on the issue on Man Boobz.) Though he does offer three links on his main page to information about the statute of limitation for rape charges, in case anyone reading is worried about getting caught being falsely accused for something they did didn’t do a long time ago.
Meanwhile,rape jokes — and not just prison rape jokes — are everywhere. Harlan, I assume you are at least somewhat familiar with a little site called Reddit, where people not only laugh at rape jokes – they laugh at actual rape!
Meanwhile, in the comments on Harlan’s article, some False Rape Society readers don’t even bother to pretend that the “rape survey” bothers them. According to the commenter called “bad,”
We should be celebrating young men who stand up against misandry. We should be celebrating the frat that said “no means yes” and we should be celebrating the frat that created this survey, if it’s a real story.
An anonymous commenter takes it a step further:
I do not condemn this action,
in fact, I wish I’d thought of it.
It is a brilliant and very appropriate response to the way young men are being treated by college campuses.
When the answer to “who would you like to treat like a rapist” is “all college men”, I think that asking them who they’d like to rape is more than fair.
But it is Harlan’s response to these comments that is the most revealing:
By the way, I read the reaction of Bad and others as a natural backlash … against the unconscionable PC culture of misandry on campus. I happen to disagree with those who suggest this was acceptable, but their remarks should not be construed as evidence that we live in a “rape culture.” Like Steve, I read their comments more as an affirmation that we live in a false rape culture–a culture that more and more men are finding intolerable.
I, on the other hand, doubt that these young men have the first clue about misandry, feminism, or how colleges run roughshod over the rights of young men. I am always amazed when we hear from falsely accused people who “had not idea this goes on.” My guess is they were just being being “funny.” I would, frankly, love to find out I am wrong, and that not only would they never call for a woman to be actually raped, but that this was a protest against the pendulum swinging too far. In that case, I am still not sure I could find it acceptable but it would initiate an entirely different dialogue.
So the survey is “indefensible,” yet a totally understandable reaction to, and protest against, an “unconscionable PC culture of misandry.”
Got it.
EDITED TO ADD: Harlan has written a response, of sorts, to this post. It is a bit — what’s the word I’m looking for here? — zany.
But they do not count this as rape.
i actually disagree that being forced to penetrate should be counted as rape. but i have the maturity to realize it’s a quibble about terminology, not a methodological flaw. and considering they included the numbers anyway, what is your problem?
Yeah. We should arrest men on “a woman’s word,” the same way we arrest people on nothing but the word that they mugged someone or broke into an apartment. When for all we know they’d just received a gift or been invited in!
Ullere, my comment on the last page was referencing chapter 4 of the CDC survey. For good reason, rape or stalking committed by an intimate partner on a victim doesn’t apply to the prison population, because victims are not incarcerated with their intimate partner in prison. Rape by all parties (i.e. including intimate and non–intimate partners) is covered in chapter 2. Your reply partly directed to me up the page was thus completely irrelevant.
Second, members of the prison population become members of the general population when they have served their term of imprisonment; if they were raped in prison, and are now at liberty, then you would expect their statistics to appear in the general statistics for the entire population. That they do not – the 1 in 71 lifetime chance of rape for men does seem low – is because rape culture makes it oppressive for men to admit and be open about having been raped – they are socially stigmatised for this, and feminists largely agree that they shouldn’t be. If you want to blame feminists for this, you are looking about 180° in the wrong direction.
I still don’t get how NWO reconciles “we need to tighten the definition of rape” and “women always lie about rape.” Tightening the definition only makes sense if women are telling the truth! Otherwise they can always just change their lies.
I mean, I realize NWO is just creating stepping-stones toward proving that rape never happens and should never be prosecuted, but still, his stepping-stones could make sense.
@Quackers
Here’s the one study allowed to leak out.
http://falserapearchives.blogspot.com/2009/06/archives-of-sexual-behavior-feb-1994.html
That’s 41%. Since the definition of rape has been expanded, plus the laws protecting the accuser have also expanded. That number has to have gone up. Do you really believe with even more protection and the expanding of the definition of rape that number would go down?
NWO, that’s not how it works. If someone is accused of a crime, then zie is arrested and goes through a trial to decide if zie is guilty or innocent. Tomorrow’s lesson will be on the existence of lawyers and juries, because I don’t want to overwhelm you with too much new information in one day.
So next question: Does it define M-on-F rape as penetrative, too?
read what it includes.
‘including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.’
not including envelopment, did you read my last post where they mention forced envelopment? 4.8% of men who are raped by envelopment are not raped in this study.
@ Sharculese
‘why would it be scientifically helpful to conflate things that are phenomenologically different?’
I see prison rape as rape, I see all rape as rape. If the study was a survey of all women except those who are poor I would think it bizarre for the study to make claims in regards to the % of all women raped.
When the study misses out the prison population where most of the penetrative rapes of men occur and indeed the homeless population who are the vast majority male and reported to be 15 time more likely to experience physical violence. To miss out the groups most likely to experience the crimes you then present statistics on is inaccurate at best.
Wow. Look what one poster wrote on FRS:
“Unfortunately, I’d say this is part of the “backlash”.
If you’ll recall that one fraternity not too long ago chanting, “No means Yes, and yes means anal”.
These young men are not rapists, they are aware that the attitude towards feminist-defined rape is a complete joke – hence, rape itself is starting to be treated as a joke as well.
And that is unfortunate, but that is what the over-zealous prosecutors and rape hysteria advocates have sparked in our society.”
Yeah, its allll because of feminism.
Unbelievable.
NWO: You are full of shit and not worth the time to reply. So here’s an article about a seal who hangs out with cats:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10772980
@Holly Pervocracy
“I mean, I realize NWO is just creating stepping-stones toward proving that rape never happens and should never be prosecuted, but still, his stepping-stones could make sense.”
I told you before, violent rape should be dealt with harshly. So should false accusations. Statuatory rape is pure bullshit, the nationwide age is about to be raised to 18. The amount of men who’ll be imprisoned will skyrocket. The UN is trying to raise the universal age to 21. I can’t even imagine how many men will be imprisoned if/when that happens.
You already have the stepping stones in place to have any man incarcerated on a womans word. With the new FBI definition, rape is almost anything at all. Expect the numbers to read 1 out of every 1.1 women are raped.
Ullere, though the issue of prison rape is a real one, and one that is too often overlooked, the number of men (and women) raped in prison is far, far smaller than the number of women who are raped outside of prison. MRAs like to pretend that more men are raped in prison than women raped outside prison, but that’s simply delusional.
According to one survey cited by the anti-prison rape group Just Detention (a credible organization with absolutely no reason to lowball the number of prison rapes), some 88,500 men and women currently being held in prisons and jails have been raped at some point in the past year.(The overwhelming majority of these victims (90 percent or so) are male, largely because the overwhelming majority of prisoners are male.)
See here for more details:
http://manboobz.com/2010/11/08/further-reading-prison-rape/
By contrast, according to the new CDC survey, some 1.3 million women are raped (or have faced attempted rape) each year.
1.3 million per year vs 88,500 per year.
[EDITED to correct a misstatement.]
Certainly, douche frat bros do not constitute the majority of the population. Thank goodness. But I can see where you and most other women think that they do since most other men are not even considered as part of society because they are virtually invisible to most women exactly because they are not meat-headed frat douches.
I was in no way defending frat bag douchery.
Again, I’m defending what frat bags like to do when naive, shallow, and overly-superficial women get wasted and pass out at the animal house. Ahh, there’s the massively overused shaming word “creep” rearing it’s adolescent head again!
I like how many people here lack simple reading comprehension skills to the point of attributing things to my posts which were nowhere to be seen in said post. I never typed, or implied, that anyone “deserves” to be raped.
Yes, women like to be paranoid and try to minimize the risk of being raped by a non-top-10% male (top 10% male being: underwear model looks, rich parents, etc.) by calling them “creepy”, and doing all sorts of other juvenile actions in an attempt to shame men who are not in the top 10%.
But when there are douche baggy meat heads with “tight abs, buns, perfect teeth, square jaw, etc.” they let their guard down and rape is what may happen. Frat’s are notorious for rapes for a reason you know. That reason is because frat bags are notorious for having entitlement complexes concerning getting laid. When most women throw themselves at the frat bags, they begin to think that ALL women want to have sex with them, regardless of consent. But yet, women still gravitate towards frat bags for some reason. Why are the frat douches not “creepy”? I mean they rape right? Or is that not creepy? Only a dude who is not in peak physical condition is “creepy” right?
Again, the most effective way to prevent rape on college campuses is not to go to places where rape occurs most frequently. Those places would be fraternities.
Also, I am not defending the frat bags or their actions in any way whatsoever. I’m simply describing the reality of the situation and how to improve it. In no way am I being a “rape apologist” and I am not blaming victims. I am offering a simple, effective method for reducing on campus rape. If you still feel that I am “blaming the victim” (which I’m sure you are) I will provide an example of “blaming the victim” in my next post for you to see what that actually looks like.
/Public Service Announcement
Worse than that, Quackers, it’s from the ebil guvmint that wants to enslave NWOrapistwannabe!!!1!
You guys do remember that this is the dude who posted a pic of an 8 year old on the beach as an example of a slut.
@Kendra, the bionic mommy
Todays lesson is, there no such thing as a zie. What planet does a zie originate? How many genitals does a zie have? Can a zie actually fuck themselves? Are they genderless?
In before someone points out my typo and accuses me of defending rape. Also, in before someone claims it was a “Freudian slip”.
@Xanthe I rarely blame feminists for anything, I have blamed the researchers on this study for being inaccurate but there is nothing that makes me believe they are feminists. Or indeed if they are feminists that this somehow tainted the results.
@ sharcluse.
‘i actually disagree that being forced to penetrate should be counted as rape’
Well I’m trying not to be offended by you not considering those raped by envelopment as being raped. I suppose you have some reason to believe this but to me it’s pretty abhorrant.
‘considering they included the numbers anyway, what is your problem?’
My problem is that there are blatant inaccuracies in the methods and divison of the stats in the report. Assuming that you agree that attempted rapes should count towards total rapes then why didn’t the researchers include attempted envelopment, alcohol/drug facilitated attempted envelopment, alcohol/drug facilitated completed envelopment. I don’t have a problem with a report coming out about rape regardless of the findings as long as due scientific method and accuracy has been maintained.
@Bostonian
“You guys do remember that this is the dude who posted a pic of an 8 year old on the beach as an example of a slut.”
That’d be 8 year old girl. And if you want to be in the running for how young I’ve been accused of being a rape advocate for, the current youngest accusation is 4. You’re not even in the running. Try harder.
Let’s not call NWO a rapist wannabe, or anything along those lines He says vile shit, yes, but this sort of namecalling is out of bounds.
NWO, you’re a zie.
You’re a he, yes.
But if I don’t know that, if Elmo was out of the room when you said you were a he, then I can call you a zie. It’s a polite way of not assuming your pronoun.
(It can also refer to a person who does not use “he” or “she” pronouns, but I’ll explain nuclear physics to the cat before I get you to figure this rocket science out.)
Dear Sexbots: funny story. I was called a creep the other day. It was a joke of course, I’m not a creep (I swear!). But guess what? I’m a woman. It’s not “shaming” language like slut is because it’s not gendered. It wasn’t a joke because “hahaha you’re a woman so you wouldn’t possibly be considered a creep!” it was a joke because “haha you’re not really a creep at all and I feel far from threatened around you”. It’s like the word “asshole”. It’s not gendered. It’s not shaming. Get the fuck over it.
NWOSlave, what is wrong with your brain?
I’ve had drunken sex (well, sex after a few drinks) which was fully consensual. You know how you know if sex is consensual? if both parties are participating equally. They are BOTH actively involved, doing things to each other. Mutually.
I also was one time so incapacitated by alcohol, completely unable to stand or walk, nevermind CONSENT to anything, and a bunch of guys tried to carry me into a taxi which would take me to their place. If my very strong, viciously protective (gay) male friend hadn’t intervened, they probably would have raped me.
How can you not tell the difference? Let’s put it simply:
Consensual sex = both parties are actively, mutually involved and actively, mutually are enjoying whats going on
Rape = Not mutual, nor are both parties actively involved. If somebody is actively having things done to THEM, to THEIR body, that is rape.
When it happens. Which in your mind, is basically never.
My only response to this is to note that I am following David’s request. So I won’t assume your interest in this is personal or anything.
@Holly Pervocracy
There is no such thing as a zie. there are two sexes determined at birth. Male/Female. Oh the occasional hermaphodite to be sure, which they always have either one or both useless reproductive organs which they usually pay good money for removal of one. A real shame for those people born with that defect.