So you may have seen the story yesterday about the University of Vermont fraternity that was suspended for sending out a charming little survey that allegedly asked, among other things, “If you could rape someone, who would it be?” (FWIW, the frat now says it was the work of an individual frat member, not the chapter.)
Reading about this incident, I’m guessing that you probably didn’t ask yourself: “I wonder how the guys at the False Rape Society will use this news to push their own agenda?” Heck, I didn’t even think to ask myself that question. But while doing the rounds of the MRA blogs I’ve discovered the answer to that question, and here it is: FRS head honcho Pierce Harlan described the survey as “perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape,” then denounced it as “indefensible,” then ranted about the evils of false rape accusations. I guess that isn’t really shocking at all.
First, Harlan offered this take on the “who would you rape” question:
I assume the survey was sick humor, a crude satire of the fratboy culture, and perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape.
Yes, because any time men make rape jokes it’s probably because, you know, feminism, and its wacky obsession with rape.
Then Harlan went on to suggest that rape was no laughing matter – especially when it comes to rape that doesn’t happen:
Whatever it was intended to be, ultimately it is indefensible, because trivializing the word “rape” is no laughing matter, whether it’s a joke about the rape of male prisoners, or the fantasy “rape” of women, or a false rape claim intended to get a guy in, or a woman out of, trouble.
Well, that was quick. Let’s not talk about the trivialization of real rape. Let’s talk about the epidemic of “false rape accusations” that Harlan has convinced himself is the real problem here.
With nary a pause, Harlan moved on to complain about hypothetical feminists making a big deal out of this survey instead of joining him on his crusade:
There most certainly will be an outcry in the feminist blogosphere over this isolated incident
This what incident?
and it will be cited as proof positive to support the myth that ours is a “rape culture.”
Yeah, I wonder why casual jokes about rape would possibly be considered as part of “rape culture.”
A “rape culture,” of course, not only would tolerate but would condone such a puerile survey. Our society does neither. The only “rape” jokes our society condones concerns prison rape — and that’s because society actually encourages prison rape as a sort of “added bonus” punishment for any hapless male who lands in prison. It is ironic that actual prison rape does not garner the outrage that this this sick fratboy humor is generating. Go figure.
This from a guy who doesn’t seem to have ever even bothered to mention the leading anti-prison rape organization, Just Detention, on his web site. (See here for more on the issue on Man Boobz.) Though he does offer three links on his main page to information about the statute of limitation for rape charges, in case anyone reading is worried about getting caught being falsely accused for something they did didn’t do a long time ago.
Meanwhile,rape jokes — and not just prison rape jokes — are everywhere. Harlan, I assume you are at least somewhat familiar with a little site called Reddit, where people not only laugh at rape jokes – they laugh at actual rape!
Meanwhile, in the comments on Harlan’s article, some False Rape Society readers don’t even bother to pretend that the “rape survey” bothers them. According to the commenter called “bad,”
We should be celebrating young men who stand up against misandry. We should be celebrating the frat that said “no means yes” and we should be celebrating the frat that created this survey, if it’s a real story.
An anonymous commenter takes it a step further:
I do not condemn this action,
in fact, I wish I’d thought of it.
It is a brilliant and very appropriate response to the way young men are being treated by college campuses.
When the answer to “who would you like to treat like a rapist” is “all college men”, I think that asking them who they’d like to rape is more than fair.
But it is Harlan’s response to these comments that is the most revealing:
By the way, I read the reaction of Bad and others as a natural backlash … against the unconscionable PC culture of misandry on campus. I happen to disagree with those who suggest this was acceptable, but their remarks should not be construed as evidence that we live in a “rape culture.” Like Steve, I read their comments more as an affirmation that we live in a false rape culture–a culture that more and more men are finding intolerable.
I, on the other hand, doubt that these young men have the first clue about misandry, feminism, or how colleges run roughshod over the rights of young men. I am always amazed when we hear from falsely accused people who “had not idea this goes on.” My guess is they were just being being “funny.” I would, frankly, love to find out I am wrong, and that not only would they never call for a woman to be actually raped, but that this was a protest against the pendulum swinging too far. In that case, I am still not sure I could find it acceptable but it would initiate an entirely different dialogue.
So the survey is “indefensible,” yet a totally understandable reaction to, and protest against, an “unconscionable PC culture of misandry.”
Got it.
EDITED TO ADD: Harlan has written a response, of sorts, to this post. It is a bit — what’s the word I’m looking for here? — zany.
i’m pretty sure if you pointed out this conversation to ‘other feminists’ the response would be ‘that isn’t hateful or sexist, and why the fuck did you bring menstruation into it out of nowhere?’
This? if someone actually has had sex with you or touched you sexually without your consent, then that was sexual assault. If you are emotionally ok about it, then that’s fine. I hope you really are alright.
And this? if what you mean by this is that people really have had sex with you without your consent, then I’m sorry. But please understand this means that you were violated and didn’t recognize it at the time, not that it must be okay because you lived through it.
What they were doing was pointing out, accurately, is that they both hoped you knew the definition before you posted your comment. And that if you did, they still think it was terrible but you have no right to dismiss other victims because you have no (apparent) problem with what was a sexual assault on your person.
I asked those questions because I cannot see where you would have to “live in fear of a false accusation” unless you do, in fact, have sex with women or men without bothering to get consent first or making sure they are not intoxicated with liquor or drugs of any kind first.
Nor do I think you know what goes into a police investigation of sexual assault or the prosecutor’s drafting of an indictment when there is a sexual assault allegation.
Feminist here too.
“I only asked if you considered yourself feminists because often, when I point other feminists to such a conversation as an example of it’s hateful sexist nature, they say “oh but they aren’t feminists”.”
They can still say we’re bad feminists, or crazy ones.
An other example of men not afraid at all of false rape accusation: PUA. If they were, they would give advice on how to be sure the woman is consenting. But what are they teaching? How to step on people boundaries, how to push women to drink to get them to bed,… Basically, how to walk on the gray line of consent as close as possible of the rapey side, because as long as she hasn’t peper-sprayed you, there is still a chance.
On the other side, how many women do you think ask themselves “what will happen is I wear these clothes, if I take this alley by night, if I drink a bit too much, if I let this man into my home, if I flirt? Will it put me at more risk, will I be taken less seriously by the police if I get raped after having done this or that”
“No, but living in fear of false accusations is indeed a normal male experience.”
I do not know a single man who lives in fear of false rape accusations. Perhaps this is because the men I know tend not to conduct their sex lives in a sketchy, skirting right at the edge of legality sort of way.
From the study:
Approximately 1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime; most men who were made to penetrate someone else reported that the perpetrator was either an intimate partner (44.8%) or an acquaintance (44.7%).
Forced to penetrate is the same thing as envelopment you stupid douche canoes. Learn to understand the english language before fucking commenting
There’s two things I think Adi could mean by “Technically I’m a rape survivor!”
1) That someone has had sex with him without explicitly asking “do you consent,” but he was totally into it. In which case, well, that’s not exactly the sex-positive recommended method but it’s also not rape by any law on the books–if he wanted it, it was consensual, even if he didn’t explicitly state that he wanted it.
(Note however that an encounter can look the same externally except that one person doesn’t want it, and that is rape. That’s why it’s a good idea to ask.)
2) That someone had sex with him that he really didn’t want, but he feels okay about it. In which case he has my sympathies but also needs to understand that not everyone will feel okay, and that him feeling okay does not mean it wasn’t a crime.
I had a #2 experience myself for a while–I slept with an older man when I was 15 and for a long time I just laughed about “Oh my God, can you believe this is technically statutory rape? Hilarious! They just don’t understand our love!” It took me a while after things had gone very, very far south (like, me becoming suicidal over it south) to realize that it really hadn’t been okay after all.
@Holly
“The modern definition of rape is sex without consent.
This is why I say you don’t understand consent.”
Here is what I said:
“By that new definition of rape, I have even been a rape victim on numerous occasions not to mention sexual assault. I’m not a sexually aggressive person so I haven’t done anything that could possibly lead to even a suspicion of a sexual crime.”
And here is your answer:
WE HAVE A WINNER, and that winner is called “I don’t know what ‘consent’ means, I just stick my dick in when the moment feels right and shit, so I have no idea when one of those false rape accusation things might happen to me afterwards!”
I really can’t think of any suitable words to add to that.
Adi, I don’t mean to push here, but when you say you were a rape victim on numerous occasions, what do you mean by that?
You seem to be implying it’s something you’re okay with and don’t see as wrong. Why is that?
So, why are these girls not charged with gang rape?
I wonder what would have happened if the genders had been reversed?
How many here believe this boy was raped?
I don’t want to watch the full video, but at first glance that looks like bullying and sexual assault. If they also make him have sex (do they? I really don’t want to watch that) then that would be rape.
Sexbots – That absolutely is sexual assault and, if they had sex with him, rape.
I’m really sick of attempted “gotchas” that would only work if we were Hitler’s more evil twin. It makes me worry that you can’t tell the difference between things like “having sex with a woman without her consent is wrong” and “KILL THE MEN KILL THEM ALL.” It suggests you’re either bad at reading or… something even creepier.
They do not force him to have sex. Nor does there appear to be any sexual contact. It’s pretty sickening bully and definitely assault, but the mother didn’t press charges.
I’d say that should be the answer you’re looking for sexbots.
So, why are these girls not charged with gang rape?
Because the boy’s mother declined to press charges, probably because she didn’t want to put her son through the additional misery victims of sexual assault routinely go through.
Doing very, very basic googling before complaining about supposed injustice is generally a good plan.
(Also, because forcibly stripping someone, while obviously totally unacceptable, probably does not meet the legal definition of rape in Florida. It’d likely be battery or sexual assault or something – I don’t know Florida law offhand.)
Oh, I watched the video all the way through and it said that the police did want to charge the girls with battery, but the boy’s mother refused to press charges.
So that’s not at all the same thing as “society just doesn’t care!”
@Holly (comment before last):
It’s not that they can’t read, it’s that they don’t believe what they read. They KNOW we are Hitler’s evil twin, no matter what we say, so the GOTCHA’s are targeted at what they know to be true about what we think… not… ya know… what we actually think.
Also, random raised-eyebrow from waaay back. Lady-gravy? Arks, really?
Gang rape involves non-consensual sexual penetration of some kind by multiple people. This did not occur.
The same thing that would happen in terms of punishment by the parents and/or the judge if criminal charges are filed.
Probably no one because these girls did not force penetration of any kind on anyone.
Briget, yes one of the commenters was complaining that envelopment was not included in the stats, but it was — only not in the main rape stats, under the category “Other Sexual Violence”. This seems to be because of the way the criminal code in the US defines rape in a particular way (any lawyers reading, feel free to jump in and correct me), and the complaint was that the survey was distorting the stats.
Lady Zombie:
I was falsely accused. I cannot begin to fathom what would go through someone’s mind to make them think it was ok to do such a thing. I would say that it was likely for “revenge” over me not knowing her full name (even though she never told me her full name, just her nickname).
I cannot imagine any other reason why a person would make a false accusation other than revenge. Of course, it would be very hard to figure out the mind of a person who would make a false accusation.
However, the bizarre idea that it happens “all the time” is only found in conspiracy theories and not in fact. False accusations do happen, but not all the time. The MRA who try and make it seem as if it happens more than it does are doing the actual victims of false accusations no service and I wish they would shut up.
I doubt I will get my wish.
The topmost results I get googling “boys pull girl’s clothes off” is some videos of women’s clothes being pulled off in a pornographic context, some story about playboy models tearing some woman’s clothes off, and this story. So it seems there is no data to say what would happen. All things considered I would hope charges would be pressed, as I would have hoped would happen in this case. That or some serious talking-toing. Of course, some of the discussion would be different, because the wider context is that the majority of rape and sexual assault victims are women and the majority of perpetrators are men.
Adi, if you’re going to selectively quote, then the only part of Holly’s comment you should have quoted is:
… because that’s it in a nutshell — the rest of Holly’s first para was rather jokily dismissive of you, but it was followed by a conciliatory paragraph taking your statement with the seriousness it deserved, which you omitted from your quote.
This is a feminist space, Adi, you can see from hovering over my avatar that I call myself a feminist, and we are used to all manner of people dropping in to comment who have incomplete or warped ideas of what rape is — indeed, if you had viewed the early part of the thread some of us enjoyed taunting one of the regular, misanthropic trolls who simply doesn’t understand the idea of consent (or pretends not to). If you don’t properly understand the basic concepts that are involved in rape and show little sign of educating yourself then I fear there will not be much chance for a productive conversation with you.
I absolutely HATE the “it isn’t rape if she enjoyed it” argument. What if you are unconscious and wake up to a nice feeling and then as you come to consciousness, realize that you gave no consent to begin with and don’t want that person doing what he is doing. THAT IS RAPE!
The argument can be used against men as well because men can get an erection even if they don’t want the person to do it. Can I turn around and say “He really wanted it because he had an erection, even though he said no, he obviously wanted it.” Bullshit. Just because your body feels pleasure when touched in certain places, it doesn’t mean you want that person to do it.
And the definition of rape involving force is bullshit too, because if you aren’t conscious, it wouldn’t take force for anyone to choose to violate you.
Long story short, my biological reaction to something is not an indication of what I actually want. If I say I don’t want it, and am in a position where I can’t stop it, you don’t get to say “she was wet, so she wanted it.”
It’s bullshit like this that makes me consider myself a misanthropist. Seriously humanity, stop fucking around!
@Kyrie
Oh don’t be so bashful, Kyrie. I’ve heard the language you spew here regularly. All the sudden the video is too much for your delicate sensibilities?
I wonder if those future, or presently model feminists stripped the boy to expose his lack of control? I noticed the one in the green shoes was wearing very little for such a little girl. And the other has on skin tight half pants and a skin tight shirt. I don’t know what the camera-girl is wearing.
Modern women promote the sexualization of young girls while blaming men. Apparently looking at a girl who dresses and acts sexually is sexualizing them, not the act of dressing and acting sexual. Women are thus free from any accountability or responsibility.
My guess is, these “good feminists,” since all women are feminist to a degree thanks to generations of daily indoctrination, were sexually exciting the young lad. They then decided to expose his lack of sexual control for a few laughs. Nothing like a little sexual arousal and shaming to put a young boy in his place.
I also noticed how if bad men would do something like this, (although I’ve never seen such a heartless vid of men doing this); It seems if a man/men would sexually assault it’d be serious business.The girls however tittered and laughed as if sex was a funny weapon to use. For women/girls, sexual arousal of a man and denial or degradation is nothing but, “girls just wanna have fun!”
What are your thoughts? Or aren’t girls like that? Are women, thru their action building “rape culture?” Shall we send the lad to a “therapist” so she can extoll the many virtues of women?
The other thing I’ve noticed is when a man does something bad, such as the penn state thing, it get’s mentioned over and over a hundred times a day for months on end, ad nauseum. Yet I’ve given countless links of women/girls doing the same thing and it never even makes anything but a small local by-line. Why is that? It’s almost like womens vile acts get swept under the rug. You’d think a story like this would/should be national headlines for the next 3 months. If it was boys doing it to a girl it most certainly would be.
Got off early on Friday, huh?
Holy fucking shit you are the most disgusting person imaginable.
False accusations of anything including rape of course happen.
Let’s say I want to accuse my neighbor of stealing my IPOD. Between filing a police report, documenting when and how it would have occurred, and court time that is many wasted hours at least.
Rape charges bring wasted hours and more to the table. Sitting at the hospital for hours, medical exams, being grilled by the police. If there are charges laid then grilled by his attorney, loss in mutual friends, many days wasted in court etc.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but logistically it doesn’t make sense. It’s like driving 40 miles to get a turkey at 10 cents less a pound. There are a few people who will actually do that but you’re probably more likely to win a lottery.
I really don’t get the mra issue with being falsely accused of rape. Unless they think they are so repulsive that if they ever laid with a woman drunk enough she would instantly regret it so much in the morning that she would be willing to give days and weeks out of her life in order to prove she didn’t want it.
I asked MrB, who is a man, if he or his male friends live (or have ever lived) in fear of false rape accusations. He looked at me like i’d grown another head. ‘No… what the hell kind of question is that, who lives in fear of that kind of thing?’