So you may have seen the story yesterday about the University of Vermont fraternity that was suspended for sending out a charming little survey that allegedly asked, among other things, “If you could rape someone, who would it be?” (FWIW, the frat now says it was the work of an individual frat member, not the chapter.)
Reading about this incident, I’m guessing that you probably didn’t ask yourself: “I wonder how the guys at the False Rape Society will use this news to push their own agenda?” Heck, I didn’t even think to ask myself that question. But while doing the rounds of the MRA blogs I’ve discovered the answer to that question, and here it is: FRS head honcho Pierce Harlan described the survey as “perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape,” then denounced it as “indefensible,” then ranted about the evils of false rape accusations. I guess that isn’t really shocking at all.
First, Harlan offered this take on the “who would you rape” question:
I assume the survey was sick humor, a crude satire of the fratboy culture, and perhaps a poke at feminism’s fascination with rape.
Yes, because any time men make rape jokes it’s probably because, you know, feminism, and its wacky obsession with rape.
Then Harlan went on to suggest that rape was no laughing matter – especially when it comes to rape that doesn’t happen:
Whatever it was intended to be, ultimately it is indefensible, because trivializing the word “rape” is no laughing matter, whether it’s a joke about the rape of male prisoners, or the fantasy “rape” of women, or a false rape claim intended to get a guy in, or a woman out of, trouble.
Well, that was quick. Let’s not talk about the trivialization of real rape. Let’s talk about the epidemic of “false rape accusations” that Harlan has convinced himself is the real problem here.
With nary a pause, Harlan moved on to complain about hypothetical feminists making a big deal out of this survey instead of joining him on his crusade:
There most certainly will be an outcry in the feminist blogosphere over this isolated incident
This what incident?
and it will be cited as proof positive to support the myth that ours is a “rape culture.”
Yeah, I wonder why casual jokes about rape would possibly be considered as part of “rape culture.”
A “rape culture,” of course, not only would tolerate but would condone such a puerile survey. Our society does neither. The only “rape” jokes our society condones concerns prison rape — and that’s because society actually encourages prison rape as a sort of “added bonus” punishment for any hapless male who lands in prison. It is ironic that actual prison rape does not garner the outrage that this this sick fratboy humor is generating. Go figure.
This from a guy who doesn’t seem to have ever even bothered to mention the leading anti-prison rape organization, Just Detention, on his web site. (See here for more on the issue on Man Boobz.) Though he does offer three links on his main page to information about the statute of limitation for rape charges, in case anyone reading is worried about getting caught being falsely accused for something they did didn’t do a long time ago.
Meanwhile,rape jokes — and not just prison rape jokes — are everywhere. Harlan, I assume you are at least somewhat familiar with a little site called Reddit, where people not only laugh at rape jokes – they laugh at actual rape!
Meanwhile, in the comments on Harlan’s article, some False Rape Society readers don’t even bother to pretend that the “rape survey” bothers them. According to the commenter called “bad,”
We should be celebrating young men who stand up against misandry. We should be celebrating the frat that said “no means yes” and we should be celebrating the frat that created this survey, if it’s a real story.
An anonymous commenter takes it a step further:
I do not condemn this action,
in fact, I wish I’d thought of it.
It is a brilliant and very appropriate response to the way young men are being treated by college campuses.
When the answer to “who would you like to treat like a rapist” is “all college men”, I think that asking them who they’d like to rape is more than fair.
But it is Harlan’s response to these comments that is the most revealing:
By the way, I read the reaction of Bad and others as a natural backlash … against the unconscionable PC culture of misandry on campus. I happen to disagree with those who suggest this was acceptable, but their remarks should not be construed as evidence that we live in a “rape culture.” Like Steve, I read their comments more as an affirmation that we live in a false rape culture–a culture that more and more men are finding intolerable.
I, on the other hand, doubt that these young men have the first clue about misandry, feminism, or how colleges run roughshod over the rights of young men. I am always amazed when we hear from falsely accused people who “had not idea this goes on.” My guess is they were just being being “funny.” I would, frankly, love to find out I am wrong, and that not only would they never call for a woman to be actually raped, but that this was a protest against the pendulum swinging too far. In that case, I am still not sure I could find it acceptable but it would initiate an entirely different dialogue.
So the survey is “indefensible,” yet a totally understandable reaction to, and protest against, an “unconscionable PC culture of misandry.”
Got it.
EDITED TO ADD: Harlan has written a response, of sorts, to this post. It is a bit — what’s the word I’m looking for here? — zany.
I am allowed to note here that NWO called an 8 year old a slut, right? Because she was wearing a bathing suit on the beach.
We really cannot expect any sort of humanity from someone who types that.
@Holly and Crumbelievable
Well given many MRAs confusion about consent, their hostility towards women, the claims that sluts “ask for it” which is exactly what convicted rapists said in the OTHER study done comparing lads mags to rapist quotes….all of this does not look like concerned people who just want justice for male victims or victims of false rape accusations. There are ways to do so without whitewashing and denying the very real problem of male on female rape.
The anger at drunken sex possibly leading to rape is suspicious as well. Like maybe, I dunno, some people using liquor as a way to get a woman’s (or man’s) guard down and coerce them into sex is actually something people do? and they are pissed that it can leads to rape? Just don’t have sex with people while you or they are intoxicated to the point of passing out. It’s not that hard!
The case has gone back and forth a few times. I remember the 2006 reversal of his initial 2004 conviction, because the court ruled that once consent has been given, it cannot be taken away. But that was reversed again in 2008. So, from 2006 to 2008, the state of Maryland said that once you agree to have sex you are not allowed to change your mind. That is supremely fucked up.
@Ullere
Fox News? really?
What do you want Ullere? what do MRAs want? forgetting the actual numbers for a moment. Do you just want feminists and everyone else who cares about stopping rape to just STOP talking about it because somewhere, a false allegation happens? Should be just stop caring about rape victims? should we stop advocating for them? should we stop trying to fix the law so that they see actual justice, as it’s very clear they dont? should we stop doing studies and trying to figure out just how prevalent it is?
What do you want? because to me, all I hear when I read this from you and every other MRA is “SHUT UP ABOUT RAPE AND STOP TRYING TO FIX THE PROBLEM”
What do you want to happen?
*waits eagerly, albeit perhaps naively, for a response to Quacker’s question*
A lousy lay on top of being a nauseating, vile, nasty, ignorant, waste of carbon. You ARE the total package, sir.
Most of the women I know–that’s a majority–have suffered some kind of sexual assault. I’ve made a lot of my friends through feminist groups where there’s a large presence of survivors, but I’d say more than 1 in 5 of my randomly made female friends have been sexually assaulted.
I can understand why they wouldn’t tell you about it, though.
But what if that wasn’t the case? What if I didn’t know anyone who’d been sexually assaulted? I still don’t know why I’d get angry about the study or take it as a personal threat.
Ullere, you’ve really jumped the shark with your comment at 9:12 pm. Just how do you prove demographic statistics?
David: Very good post. The frat should be investigated. Frats who condone rape should be kicked off campus.
Actually it was featured on fox news Quackers, the author was Wendy McElroy the editor of ifeminists.com and a ‘Canadian individualist anarchist and individualist feminist’
Quackers I’d like some truth and justice to be honest. Caring about rape is universal in my eyes, NWO is a troll. No state institution in the western world supports rape. In the end of things I would like an end to both the MRM and feminism, thats what I personally want. When together people of both genders can advocate and care for other people regardless of that persons gender I will be estatic. I couldn’t say what either Mra’s or indeed feminists want, you all seem to be ass backwards to me.
To respon directly.
‘Do you just want feminists and everyone else who cares about stopping rape to just STOP talking about it because somewhere, a false allegation happens?’
No, but it would be nice if rape figures weren’t inflated (1 in 4, now 1 in 5) and false rape figures weren’t deflated (2% originally, now 8% according to your british source, and 20% minimum according to the fbi). Rape is a serious, serious crime and is treated like one, false accusation is also a very serious crime, but for some reason isn’t treated like one. The 20% of rape convictions the fbi prove to be false do not result in a conviction for false accusation. But both of these things fit with truth and justice, as I said above.
‘Should be just stop caring about rape victims?’
No care more, care about all victims regardless of gender. Care about those falsely accused who are also victims, care more about truth and etc…
‘should we stop advocating for them?’
No.
‘should we stop trying to fix the law so that they see actual justice, as it’s very clear they dont?’
No.
‘should we stop doing studies and trying to figure out just how prevalent it is?’
No
‘What do you want? because to me, all I hear when I read this from you and every other MRA is “SHUT UP ABOUT RAPE AND STOP TRYING TO FIX THE PROBLEM”’
Stop accepting mistruths about rape and false accusations of rape and try to fix the problem. Be open to other peoples information regardless of their ‘alterior motives’. Also stop blandly and vehemently bashing every MRA, they are but people too. For even idiot MRA there seems to be as many ‘radical’ feminists.
Ullere: To use your question: Of the people I know, a number admit to having been raped. I don’t know that anyone I know doesn’t know someone who has been, if not raped, sexually assaulted.
So when you tell me you don’t know anyone who has been raped, I have so say that implies no one is willing to trust you enough to share that sort of detail.
If that’s the case, I can see why.
‘prove demographic statistics?’ sorry xanthe I’m not certain what you are asking?
‘I can understand why they wouldn’t tell you about it, though.’
‘I have so say that implies no one is willing to trust you enough to share that sort of detail.
If that’s the case, I can see why.’
I have been told other quite explicity and personal traumas, rape is not one of them. Personal attacks aside there is a reason MRA’s and others (scholars, police, judges etc) doubt the rape epidemic, for every study that shows 1 in 4, or now 1 in 5 another source shows far fewer. I have no doubt that if I were to go to work at a support shelter or a vulnerable childrens/womens centre I would meet people who have had experience horrific crimes. My own lack of personal knowledge could merely point to good luck in my circle.
‘why they insist in the face of a large body of evidence that there is a huge fucking problem regarding rape, they still try to trivialize that face’
‘You really have to wonder what the true motive of people is who insist that rape of women is not that big a problem’ – implying those that doubt that rape is a big problem have more sinister motives.
‘Like, I don’t really have proof that malaria is a huge problem. I’ve been told it is, and have no reason to doubt, and I’ve donated to mosquito-net funds.’
My response was meant to highlight the very obvious reasons people doubt that rape is a big problem, it’s not due to the dubious alternative motives quackers refers to. It is due to other evidence and personal experience. To then launch personal attacks on me for a fairly innocuous is in poor taste. I will refrain from commenting on the subject again here, perhaps your right and the only reason someone could have for doubted the rape epidemic is ‘alterior motives’, maybe you genuinely have no nuanced reasoning.
I was really only going to post my agreement with David on this but….
Ullere: As someone who regularly deals with the fact that he was falsely accused of rape in the past, the idea that 20% of rapes are false accusations is absurd.
Reading the Fox News article you speak of…. The study “stumbled upon” deals with 28 cases. 28 cases is not statistically significant enough to describe any rate of any kind.
The only rapes discussed further in the article are those investigated by the FBI and not rapes investigated at the state/local level. I am not sure how many FBI rape cases are dealt with per year versus the amount of rape cased dealt with at a state or local level. But if the amount of state/local level rape cases are much more than the amount of FBI investigated cases, then the percentage of non-DNA matches discovered in the FBI become less statistically significant and more likely a statistical anomaly.
You believe the studies are inflated, I do not. I’ve read plenty of studies, studies that are not from feminist organizations, that come to a very similar conclusion…between 1 in 4 to 1 in 6.
How are people punished for falsely accusing of other crimes? funnily enough, actual rape doesn’t result in as many convictions either. Where is truth and justice in that?
As I already mentioned, I have seen more evidence that rape is more of a problem than false rape accusations. So yea, my focus is going to be on trying to stop that. What is so wrong about that? would you tell a liver cancer researcher they’re wrong because they aren’t researching bone cancer? or skin cancer? or any other cancer? Just because I care about rape victims does not mean I don’t care about the falsely accused or think the ones who do the false accusing should not be punished. They should. But so should rapists. And people who participate in trivializing rape should be called out for it.
You also say you no when I asked if we should stop doing studies to find out just how prevalent rape is, yet you dismiss studies like the CDC as inflating statistics, then change the subject to false accusations.
I come to my own conclusions when I research topics. Your opinion on what is a mistruth does not make it fact. Stop bashing MRAs? I’ll stop bashing them when they stop bashing feminists and women overall. MRAs are people too? well they certainly don’t think women are people. I don’t offer courtesy to people who think I should be hung for my beliefs.
And here is something else from that FBI 20% study you mentioned
lack of DNA doesn’t necessarily mean a rape never happened, or someone falsely accused. You can penetrate with an object. The perp could have worn gloves or a condom. The victim could have taken a shower afterwards.
In the article, Wendy even says
MRAs on the other hand, push the belief that all false rape accusations are done by evil women for revenge.
Also, do you really expect the victim of a rape is going to helpfully inform everyone zie meets, “Hello, since we last talked, did you know I was raped? So I might be a little bit upset right about now.”
<trigger warning; personal rape anecdote>
With my own rape, it was an acquaintance who forcibly penetrated me after a party where I had drunk enough to be intoxicated and incapable of resisting or consenting, and when I came to my hungover senses sometime in the small hours of the morning I collected my clothes and got the hell out of there. I didn’t talk to the acquaintance afterwards and didn’t try to discuss what had happened. Over the following week I was seeing a girl and we were sleeping together, so as she also knew my rapist I confided in her, but I was beyond being able to sexually reciprocate and looking back I was probably suffering PTSD.
I was living with my brother in a share house and I felt obliged to confide in him as well, but asked him not to tell our parents (I’m fairly sure he respected that). I’ve confided in each of my subsequent partners, and have occasionally discussed having been raped on Internet blogs like this one where I don’t think where relating my experiences would amount to an accusation (and I don’t want to publicly identify the guy).
Why didn’t I go to the police, or something? Basically, I was young and in my naïvete I thought I was partially culpable owing to having been intoxicated, so that any attempt to report it would be hopeless: either the police would tell me to “go home, it’s your fault for being drunk”, or the legal system would involve the defence lawyers destroying my character and battling along the usual “he says, she says” line when the victim’s story doesn’t match the accused’s, and lastly the guy had been a friend and I didn’t want to bring an action which would probably destroy his career as well as ostracising me.
</anecdote>
I would be confident that there are many, many more reasons (than just my own justifications) that people don’t willingly confide bad things that happened to them, even to close friends and family members, and so when researching sensitive subjects like this, lengthy and thorough measures have to be taken – and the survey spells it out at length what these were, in the report – to provide a safe environment conducive to allowing the respondents to be frank and open about highly personal and confidential information about themselves. It’s not the sort of thing I was willing to talk about to any random person in my personal circle (except for the closest of confidants) for the better part of two decades, and I don’t think I’m exceptional in that respect.
If someone is exonerated by a DNA test, that means that foreign DNA was found on/in the victim, which means that someone likely raped her.
It’s not exactly fair to call that a false rape accusation. It’s a miscarriage of justice, but because a rape probably did occur, the solution can’t be as simple as “suspect the victim of making it all up.”
@Ullere
when the people who always doubt or deny rape statistics and the rape problem, are the ones who show little understanding of consent, are openly hostile to women and keep pushing the belief that women lie about rape constantly for revenge…you don’t see how this can be interpreted as them having ulterior motives?
@lj4adotcomdan absurd? Well accept whatever number you don’t find absurd to be the real number then. Thats a fine way to come to a decision, I linked that particular study because the woman convinced by it is a fairly prominent feminist, earlier in this thread all MRA’s and indeed everyone who doubts the prevalance of rape more than the 8% the british study showed seems to have alterior motives.
There are doubtless other studies that show less or more than 20%, also read the dam FBI study, it cites 28 studies for rape exclusively that happened to invloved the prisoner going to jail for more than 7 years.
‘They stated, “Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive, about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have “matched” or included the primary suspect.”
The authors continued, “these percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and the National Institute of Justice’s informal survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly similar 26 percent exclusion rate.”
If the foregoing results can be extrapolated, then the rate of false reports is roughly between 20 (if DNA excludes an accused) to 40 percent (if inconclusive DNA is added). The relatively low estimate of 25 to 26 percent is probably accurate, especially since it is supported by other sources.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html#ixzz1gfPce7SE
‘
Somewhat more than 28 cases.
The take home message from my tl;dr above is that not everyone who has been the victim of sexual violence is willing for that fact to be public knowledge, so the malaria simile cannot be successfully applied. You can’t tell someone is a victim of rape simply by looking at them (barring obvious bruises, which might be defensively explained as resulting from something else); the only reason someone in my personal circle of friends and acquaintances might suspect I am a rape victim is because I am obviously touchy on the subject, because they would be unlikely to have heard it from me or one of my partners (current or ex–).
As someone who sees leftover egg on his car everyday, I have trouble seeing how 100% of cars are not egged.
Ullere: And we see, at a different end of the spectrum, confirmation bias in action.
As I said, from your behavior here, I can see why someone who has suffered a rape might be reluctant to tell you. It’s not a personal attack, it’s an observation based on your behavior. You may be perfectly empathetic, even sympathetic to all sorts of personal trauma, but that means nothing in relation to the way someone who knows you might think you likely to react to those who have been raped.
@Xanthe
I’m sorry for what you had to go through 🙁
It’s so asinine to think that victims of rape are just going to talk about it with everyone and anyone. Especially when it’s so stigmatized.
“The study documents 28 cases which, ”
Directly from the story you linked to (that I already said I had read)
Also from the link:
“Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing”
How many of those referred cases had results that could not be obtained? It is common knowledge that most women who are raped do not get a post rape examination with a rape kit done. If all the cases referred to the FBI match the percentages who do and don’t get a rape kit taken, then that 25% just dropped to 12%. And that is ignoring the question about how many cases the FBI gets versus the combined state/local government cases combined.