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When 5 is 7: Advanced Facebook dating math, according to the dude who actually calls himself “Heartiste”

Cats also think they're all that.

Today, a lesson in advanced Facebook dating mathematics, courtesy of our friend Roissy/Heartiste.

First: fellas, remember that online dating is stacked against us, due to the ability of the ladies to post pictures of themselves looking cute on Facebook – one of the gravest injustices of the modern world. As Heartiste explains, in a post with the bracing title You’ll Need Hard Negs For Facebook Game:

So you’ve got millions of women posting flattering pics of themselves and personal details that are uniformly positive on their FB walls, and you’ve got a bunch of cloying betas feeding the egos of these women even further with painstakingly crafted supportive comments, and you expect to make any headway with tepid game? That is a bitch shield too strong to breach.

But if you must engage the ladies on this unfavorable terrain, remember to adjust your calculations accordingly. As Heartiste explains this new math:

The combination of self-selected profiles and nonstop beta adulation will boost a 5′s self-conception to a 7. Since 5s already have a self-conception of 6 thanks to the phenomenon of female upward dating momentum and the alpha cock carousel, you now have a double-strength bitch shield to bust instead of a single strength.

I’ve prepared a simple chart to illustrate this point:

How to date on Facebook

But wait! There’s more:

Remember, if a 5 believes she’s a 7 (“But I *feel* like a 7!”) she is also going to believe that male 7s are not high enough status for her. Women are not truly happy unless they are dating men 0.5 to 2 sexual market value points higher than themselves.

Five thinks it’s seven. But seven is five. SEVEN IS FIVE!

The reality, of course, is that the male 7 is two full points higher than the female 5. But the Facebook wall has meddled with the primal forces of nature. An unbridgeable chasm brought about by the advance of technology has severed the organically emergent hierarchy of the dating market where there is no escape from soul withering judgments made in mere seconds.

So, as always, the best bet for the modern man is to find some lady in the real world who actually thinks she’s the number she is. Then, simply neg her until she hates herself. That’s how the math is supposed to work.

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Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

I am soooo entitled because I value myself over other people!!!

*air horns sound, balloons fall, studio audience leaps to their feet and erupts into thunderous applause*

Alphalady
Alphalady
13 years ago

It always amazes me how so many un-evolved men (who are almost always pathologically insecure) are convinced that the only way to get a woman to sleep with them is by bashing her and trying to diminish her self-worth. Furthermore, they tend to solely focus on the woman’s appearance, age, weight and other physical attributes.

I once had a guy try to pick me up at a restaurant by way of pointing out to me that I should have been grateful that he even gave me the time of day because I was over 40. (Interestingly, he was the same age as me.) He was stunned when I told him to go fuck himself. Indeed, these kinds of guys become shocked, indignant and feel rejected when this tactic doesn’t work. It’s a fascinating phenomenon.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
13 years ago

That’s an option I hadn’t considered, but it is certainly possible. On reflection, I think what’s most likely is that her interest evolved over time, and by the time she decided to make her move I was already taken. Aside from the notion of “pre-selection,” this person had other issues as well, and so I am glad we didn’t end up together.

Again, people are complicated.

I bolded that last part, Captain, because “truer words…” and all.

Women are people, just like men, (I know, I know… but bear with me) and thus are perfectly capable of evolving interest over time, screwing up an approach, misreading signals, etc.

Bee
Bee
13 years ago

The fact that the girl was flirting with you after you met your future wife is what they call “preselection”.. Basically you are more attractive when more women find you attractive. Kind of a snowball effect.

This whole “preselection” discussion is weirding me out. Specifically, the fact that Brandon seems to think this is something that women exclusively do. And the rationale he seems to ascribe to the phenomenon.

Brandon: Guys do this too. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve just gotten into a relationship or have started flirting with someone who’s very interested, and some other guy comes along and starts hitting on me.

I’ve always ascribed it to people being attracted to people who are happy and self-confident (which, if I’m feeling giddy, I’m prolly feeling happy and self-confident too), plus maybe, if I’m in a new relationship or contemplating one, I’m more likely to dress a little better, wear my hair differently, etc.

I’ve never ascribed it to men being lemmings or snowballs or whatever. Oh, that’s right, because I view men as actual people. Gotcha.

ozymandias42
13 years ago

I have no idea how you even rate someone’s SMV. According to the roissy test thingie I’m a greater beta? Does that mean I get negged? Because I’d probably completely miss that I was being negged.

Him: Nice nails. Are they pressons?
Me: (assuming I got pressons for some reason) Yes! Aren’t they cool? And glittery? I love glitter, don’t you?

Him: You’ve got something in your hair.
Me: Oh, thanks!

Him: You say like/omg/whatever a lot.
Me: Yeah. Did you know that according to a sociolinguistics paper I read like has at least five distinct meanings?

Stephanie
Stephanie
13 years ago

Out of curiosity, has anybody here ever been approached by a PUA in real life? Or somebody you suspected is a PUA?

Hershele Ostropoler
13 years ago

Holly:

It is definitely Beta to fertilize your friend’s crops. (Although rich in symbolism.)

I’m certainly seeing a lot of fertilizer here.

Crumb:

*Girl posts attractive picture of herself*
Brandon: You look like you could lose some weight.

You must make so many friends that way.

Br*ndon would never sully himself on Facebook with the … ordinary people.

Holly:

Negs only work on women who: 1) already have low self-esteem or 2) are actually just trying to get laid themselves and are only minimally interested in what the man talking to them is saying.

I think #2 accounts for 90% of PUA success stories.

The other 10% being made up, or are you only counting the truish ones?

Kathleen:

Honestly, anyone who thinks insulting people is the way to get sex/dates deserves who they end up with.

He’s not insulting them, he’s just saying insulting things to them.

Holly:

It wasn’t “I’m better than you, so we’re incompatible”; it was “I don’t feel attracted to you, so we’re incompatible.”

I think you’re trying to explain that to someone who can’t conceive of a difference between those sentences.

If the idea of attraction and standards and such has only one axis, there can’t be a difference between “not what I’m looking for” and “doesn’t measure up” because what a person is looking for is someone who measures up.

Holly:

that’s not like picking someone up at the bar; that’s like walking into a group of friends without introducing yourself, jumping in the middle of a conversation, and trying to pick someone up.

How does one ordinarily try to pick somone up at the bar?

That’s an actual question, I’ve never tried to do it.

Holly:

But they were successful because of whatever other productive thing they did, not because they eschewed the wicked ways of women.

Like Alan Turing! And Walt Whitman!

kladle
kladle
13 years ago

The ‘number ranking system’ exists because these men need a consensus on which women are and are not attractive. And they need that consensus because they get more self-worth if they know they’ve won the validation of a collectively agreed upon ‘high-status woman.’ In other words, they have fallen right into the hungry vagina trap that ensnares 99% of males. Women have manipulated men for years by making their approval the source of a man’s self-esteem and happiness, and profit from linking ‘greater female attractiveness’ with ‘greater ability to prositute resources.’ If you buy into the PUA nonsense then you are just enabling this sociopathic behaviour.

Arks. Arks. ARKS! Hey Arks, I need you to listen to this. You are so close, dude!

You are somehow clever enough to acknowledge that the whole women-as-status thing is tremendously stupid and manipulative… but you blame women for that??? Re-read what you wrote there. A certain group of men are the ones who made up this dumb number ranking system and judge each other on it. Blame those men for that one, not women. And your fellow MGTOWers are still doing it to each other. You aren’t avoiding the relevant people here– you’re hanging out with them.

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

Stephanie – I got PUAed once. It was at a BDSM club and this older guy in a shiny shirt was basically daring me to fuck him, like “I bet you think you’re too good for a guy like me, but lady, you’re missing out.”

I saw him leave alone at the end of the night.

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

How does one ordinarily try to pick somone up at the bar?

…I have no idea. It just seems vaguely more reasonable. I don’t go to bars alone because I’d just feel like an alcoholic, and when I go with friends I spend the entire time paying attention to my friends. But apparently some people meet in bars?

ithiliana
13 years ago

@Hershele: Like Alan Turing! And Walt Whitman!

I see what you did there!

;>

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

@neverdidlikeyou: ha, those damn magnets.

Can we all just ignore Brandon now that The Brandon Show is veering into a rehash of his engorged sense of entitlement and his feelings on respect?

Who’s got the remote?

ozymandias42
13 years ago

Brandon, most communication is not for purposes of manipulating people. I’d be interested to discover the manipulation behind my half-an-hour discussion of supervillain dating problems.

Stephanie: Unfortunately, no. But I’m fascinated by PUAs– if I did get hit on by one I’d probably go along with it just to see what would happen.

Arks: I’m pretty sure Tesla was asexual. It doesn’t take much to not have a sexual relationship IF YOU’RE NOT INTO SEX.

(Other MGTOW heroes: Morrissey, Edward Gorey, Tim Gunn.)

ozymandias42
13 years ago

I got picked up in a club TWICE! One dude had a pleasant conversation about bands with me and then asked for my number, and one dude was drunk and attempted to buy me a shirt.

Neither of them WORKED, but that’s apparently how you do it.

Stephanie
Stephanie
13 years ago

@Holly Pervocracy

A shiny shirt? Haha.

I haven’t been approached by a PUA yet. Two of my friends were approached by this man ( http://www.dimitrithelover.com/toronto_real_men_basic_information.html ) and were absolutely horrified.

To everyone,
what would be a really good “comeback” to say to a PUA if he approached you? I usually have a really strong “fuck off” vibe towards (non-PUA) straight men that approach me, but I think a PUA deserves something a bit nastier.

Polliwog
13 years ago

Out of curiosity, has anybody here ever been approached by a PUA in real life? Or somebody you suspected is a PUA?

The dude whose attempt at a pick-up line was, “You know, you remind me of my wife, only not as attractive as she is. Say, she’s out of town for the weekend – wanna come back to my place?” might be a contender. At the time, I just wrote him down as “ridiculous douchebag,” but “ridiculous douchebag trying to follow tips he got from other ridiculous douchebags” could work, too.

Stephanie
Stephanie
13 years ago

Weird, I just posted a comment but it didn’t show up.

I haven’t yet been approached by a PUA, but two of my friends were approached by this man: ( http://www.dimitrithelover.com/toronto_real_men_basic_information.html ). They were absolutely horrified, to say the least

What do you think would be a good “comeback” to a PUA if he approached you? I usually have a really strong “fuck off” vibe when straight men approach me, but I think a PUA deserves something a lot nastier than just a vibe.

Stephanie
Stephanie
13 years ago

Wtf, I just posted the same comment twice, but both of my comments are for some reason not appearing. Maybe its because I included a link? Let me try again.

I haven’t been approached by a PUA yet, but two of my friends were approached by “Dimitri the lover” (Google him, he’s an absolute creep) and were horrified.

My question to all of you: what do you think would be a good “comeback” to say to a PUA when he approaches you? I usually have a strong “fuck off” vibe when it comes to straight men approaching me, but I think a PUA deserves something a lot more nastier.

Dracula
Dracula
13 years ago

…and one dude was drunk and attempted to buy me a shirt.

I’m imagining this as some kind of cold opener, and it’s hilarious

“Hey baby, can I buy you a shirt?”

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

Stephanie – I don’t know how much those guys register comebacks–you sleep with them or you’re an ALPHA FUCK, there’s not much else to say–but I’d suggest simply letting them know you’re on to them. “Did you learn that from some ‘pick-up-artist’ guide? That’s terrible.”

I also ask “does that work a lot?” to guys who hit on me in terrible ways.

juliejezebel
13 years ago

I’ve used the “does that work alot?” and they generally either get huffy and mean or they pour their heart about how it doesn’t.

Puella Sapiens
Puella Sapiens
13 years ago

I find that what “negs” consist of, the ways in which they may be interpreted by various women, and how PUAs talk about and explain them are three very different things.

Different pieces of PUA lit classify and define “negs” differently, but they can be loosely characterized as any comment about a person that is not too obviously positive (and could therefore be construed negatively), delivered in a self-secure way.

There are circumstances in which a “neg” can work because it makes it appear as if the man is interested in the woman even though he recognizes her imperfection, which for women accustomed to being pursued solely on the basis of looks may be humanizing and a relief.

Cocky-funny “negs” can work because they’re taken as jocular/flirtatious, can be genuinely funny, and are seen as a sign of friendliness.

Straightforwardly critical “negs” can work because they give an appearance of honesty and lack of ulterior motives, which builds credibility and trust.

“Negs” that PUAs like to call “subtle” (“If I tell her she seems laid back she’ll worry that she’s too boring for me!”) are often flat-out taken as compliments.

When they do work for ego-related reasons, it’s due to pre-existing lack of self-esteem and/or self-awareness. It’s also conceivable to me that people who think looks are all they’ve got, which is an attitude I’ve seen develop more often in the especially good-looking, will react more to the suggestion that their looks aren’t appealing. But when less conventionally attractive people don’t react that way, it’s usually because of a “so what?” reaction rather than seriously damaged feelings. They’re already acclimated to the idea that some people don’t want them, are at ease with it, and are prepared to demand they receive basic respect from others in spite of it.

Most negs need not result in anyone being “taken down a notch” in order to have a positive effect on the interaction. That one-sided, frequently inaccurate piece of theorizing seems to be the product of a mission to reassure themselves of the efficacy of an unhealthy, dominating masculine archetype. They’re just bound and determined to read a male chauvinist, female agency-denying power dynamic into situations regardless of whether it actually exists there or not.

I find that the way they think about women is generally much more concerning to me than what they actually do.

Kyrie
Kyrie
13 years ago

“what do you think would be a good “comeback” to say to a PUA when he approaches you?”
I think “hahahahahahaha, you’re trying to do PUA bullshit, aren’t you? Hahahhahahahahaha” would be enough for me.

no more mr nice guy
13 years ago

I got picked up in a club TWICE! One dude had a pleasant conversation about bands with me and then asked for my number, and one dude was drunk and attempted to buy me a shirt.

Neither of them WORKED, but that’s apparently how you do it.

They will both brag in a PUA forum that they gamed you because you talked to them. For these guys, any conversation mean a success. As an example, Alpharivelino, a guy that admire Roosh, Heartiste and Yohami wrote a field report on his blog last year because he exchanged a few words with a woman. He really thought he was a big seducer :

http://alpharivelino.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/sublimatio/

neverdidlikeyou
13 years ago

and one dude was drunk and attempted to buy me a shirt.

Ha! That beats the dude who tried to get me to buy him a drink after I turned him down 3 times and a row and he graciously offered to have a threesome with me and my girlfriend.

I met the current boyfriend in a bar. I made fun of him for stealing my seat (we both were hanging out with a mutual friend and he came in while I was in the bathroom) then we closed the bar down talking about books and making sarcastic comments about the amusing drunk people around us.

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