What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
I’m finding it seriously disturbing that we have someone here who’s read those quotes from the convicted rapist and is insisting that agreeing with them doesn’t mean anything rapey. Ugh. Rape culture – it really does seep into every nook and cranny of society.
About your blog: as you told yourself, MRAs believe in a false-accusation culture. Your blog (that I have not read in detail) and its subject are the kind that would be expected from a MRA. But again, the causality is not necessarily true and it’s a blog subject as valid as any other and all depend of the way the subject is treated.
Here is a fine example of what a rape culture is: when a young girl gets rape by 20 men, we need to know how slutty her clothes were.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/us/09assault.html
Jordan: Holy fuck! 0_o
“When Brahs Can’t Cope” wins comment of the day.
CassandraSays, lj4adotcomdan blog is paranoid about false rape accusation. I don’t understand why there are guys that are paranoid about false rape accusation because with DNA testing, it’s not difficult to counter them,
@lj4adotcomdan
I’m not going to bother responding to all of that, but I will say that your problem is that you don’t understand how heterosexuality IS the most valuable form of sexuality, and holds the most power. Heteronormative does not just mean that heterosexuality is most prevalent. It means there’s a whole power structure that favours heterosexuality and heterosexual relationships over all others.
But this isn’t an Intro to Sexuality Studies course, so I don’t feel like sitting here explaining this to you. I’ll redirect you further.
I would recommend you read “Queering Relationships: Toward a Paradigmatic Shift” by John P. Elia
Quackers: “My mistake.”
Well, I tried to preemptively prevent people from taking it out of context. Unfortunately that failed.
“is many not enough?”
What percentage is many? A million people is “many”. But a million people is a fraction of a percent of the people in this country.
“those attitudes should be on the fringe of society, instead they’re still very common. When a cop thinks its legitimate advice to tell women not to dress like sluts in order to avoid being raped, I think we have a problem. ”
Well, I have a problem with how some in law enforcement treat victims of rape. I know of someone who made a report about being slipped some drugs and then raped. The officer actually asked if she enjoyed it. That is pathetic.
On the other hand, police officers will often tell people to avoid certain areas of town if they want to avoid being mugged. Does that mean they are blaming the victim of the mugging for being mugged? Or does that mean they are just giving advice on how to best avoid being a victim of a crime.
Of course, many (I believe most) rape victims know their rapists so to focus on the manner of dress doesn’t seem to be an effective way to prevent rape.
“No one tells a robbery victim that if they don’t want to be robbed they shouldn’t buy a nice house or own expensive things. ”
People are told all the time how to prevent themselves from being robbed. From locking your doors, installing an alarm system, keeping on porch lights, etc. That doesn’t mean they are blaming robbery victims who don’t do those things.
” Also no one asks an assault victim if what they were wearing potentially gave the person who assaulted them the wrong idea, thus asking to be assaulted. ”
That is true. And focusing on what was being worn is something that should not be done. However, the police are going to ask the accuser questions to determine the issues surrounding consent and if it was given or not.
“that doesn’t stop the media from having a field day at the victim’s expense. ”
The media also has a field day at the expense of the accused as well.
“Well that’s great that you know decent people, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. ”
I am sure it exists, but not to the level that some claim it does.
“I think there is some legitimate proof that rape culture exists, or institutionalized sexism as you prefer to call it. I see those proofs on forums/internet comments, in the news, in jokes, in popular culture and in PUA “teachings”. You should take a look at the way our trolls and other MRAs treat the subject of rape and so called “slutty women” sometime too. Even this study should tell you something is really wrong.”
I see the way that MRA treat the subject of rape and “slutty women” (even though the slutty men are not criticized). I find that MRA are often not helping their own claimed cause when they behave in such a way. There are several items that MRA discuss that I think are worthy of note. Perhaps others would as well if their manner in approaching those items were not so abhorrent and overtly sexist.
As to the labels. I think that those who believe there is a rape culture, or that we live in a rape society, would also believe that there is institutionalized sexism. I do not think they are interchangeable.
“As for the drunk hook-ups, I believe sleeping with someone who is way to drunk to consent is now considered rape regardless of who does it. It should be regarded common sense not to hook up with a drunk person, but like I mentioned before, that behavior is normalized.”
What if both are too drunk to consent and no evidence exists showing that one tried to get the other one drunk for the purpose of having sex.
Cassandra: “I’m finding it seriously disturbing that we have someone here who’s read those quotes from the convicted rapist and is insisting that agreeing with them doesn’t mean anything rapey. ”
If you are speaking about me, I found that several of the comments were “rapey”. One wasn’t rapey but was “abusey”. The others were neither.
@ no more mr nice guy – Yep, it’s because I took a quick look at his blog that I’m not even bothering to seriously engage. Not worth my time and effort.
@lj4adotcomdan
Also,
“If we really did live in a “rape culture”, I would love for someone to be able to shine the light on me and reveal it.”
If you are truly interested in understanding rape culture, I’ll redirect you to a couple of sources:
Yes Means Yes: Visions Of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape by Jaclyn Friedman and Jessica Valenti
Also, the authors of that book have a blog, which has some really good articles (you should read the book first though). But here are some excellent articles:
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/false-rape-allegations-are-rare/http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/
Also, “Transforming a Rape Culture” is supposedly a really good book about rape culture. I’ve actually never read that one myself, but I’ve heard it has some excellent information.
You must not have a very good understand as to how the (US)criminal justice system works. A jury could STILL convict a defendant who’s been falsely accused EVEN in the absence of forensic evidence! But most of all, criminal defendants are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. That means if a woman accuses a man of rape, then as the plaintiff it is SHE who must prove that he’s guilty and not him who must prove his innocence!
Kyrie: “About your blog: as you told yourself, MRAs believe in a false-accusation culture. Your blog (that I have not read in detail) and its subject are the kind that would be expected from a MRA.”
I know. Which is why I am very careful on my blog to not only present my information in a way that an MRA would not do it, but I also am critical of how the MRA do present their information.
Monsieur sans Nom, in your country and mine, rape is not handled by a civil suit.
“Which is why I am very careful on my blog to not only present my information in a way that an MRA would not do it”
If that was your intent, you have failed.
But the failures on the part of the justice system doesn’t mean we live in a “rape culture”.
Sure it does: it’s a systemic element of oppression where ‘rape’ as a crime is not taken as seriously as other crimes. It’s part of institutionalized, systematic oppression and marginalization of women’s issues. You need to go to feminism 101.
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=rape%20culture%20site%3A.edu&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&fp=38f9734dbf923bbb&ion=1&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=38f9734dbf923bbb&ion=1&biw=1280&bih=939
Do do some homework and then maybe you might have something worth contributing to a discussion beyond rape apologist denial that a rape culture exists because you don’t see it.
nomoremrniceguy: “CassandraSays, lj4adotcomdan blog is paranoid about false rape accusation. I don’t understand why there are guys that are paranoid about false rape accusation because with DNA testing, it’s not difficult to counter them,
I doubt you even read it.
I am not paranoid about false rape accusations. I was a victim of one.
In the case of the false accusation made against me, there was no DNA evidence to collect. As such, DNA testing would not have meant squat. Of course, if DNA evidence is collected, does that prove rape on a DNA match? Of course not. It just proves ejaculation.
However, what was important was that the police officer questioned the accuser and found a hole in her story so large that it was obviously false. (I go into what was wrong in the “short short version” on the first post).
Unfortunately for me, even though it never went to trial, it is something that has impacted me since then. I have had nightmares any time national cases made the news about false accusations (Hofstra, Duke). I have held it in so long, only very few people actually new about it.
But my blog is part of my healing. My feeling free to openly discuss it has helped me start the healing process that was long overdue.
Do you deny the real pain and the real harm that can take place if someone lies about it?
Since I did not attempt to equate them, there was no false equivalency. Had I said “rape is equal to false accusations of rape” then you would be 100% spot on correct without a doubt that I made a false equivalency. But I did not say that. You just assumed. You were wrong..
You didn’t say those exact words, but you make them equivalent in your clauses, i.e. they are both wrong. Or something like that. And a lot of Trollz do equate the two, so if you aren’t one of them, you’re perilously close on the language use.
And to completely dismiss the idea of a rape culture is TROLLING from the git-go.
Cassandra: “If that was your intent, you have failed.”
http://falselyaccused.lj4a.com/2011/02/10/can-you-tell-me-what-is-wrong-with-this-video/
In that post i am critical of MRA who are getting all uptight about a video suggesting that parents can teach their children that raping women is wrong.
http://falselyaccused.lj4a.com/2011/02/09/what-is-a-false-accusation-of-sexual-violence/
In that post, I am critical of MRA who claim that a woman recanting her rape accusation should be considered to have made a false accusation. Recantations are made for many reasons, not just because she lied.
In some posts, I do find myself in agreement with the MRA (for example the Title IX stuff). However, there are other posts where I clearly state my opposition to those who are MRA and the sexist and hateful manner in which they present their arguments.
Except that when victims of mugging or robbery fail or forget to take this advice, they still are not blamed for being victims of those crimes, nor is it used against them in court. Furthermore, the “advice” of not dressing like a slut is not even good advice, because clothing has nothing to do with whether you are raped or not.
that you can give an example like this yet still deny rape culture is really something. There is no point in even debating this with you any further.
Ithiliana: “You didn’t say those exact words, but you make them equivalent in your clauses, i.e. they are both wrong. Or something like that. ”
Sure, they are both wrong. That doesn’t mean they are EQUALLY wrong. It is absurd to suggest that because I do not specifically state they are unequal that you would assume that I believe they are.
“And a lot of Trollz do equate the two”
Good for them (or should I say, bad for them). I do not.
“so if you aren’t one of them, you’re perilously close on the language use.”
False.
“And to completely dismiss the idea of a rape culture is TROLLING from the git-go.”
That one dismisses an idea you find true is not trolling. It was bad enough when you put words in my mouth that I did not say. Now you are just making up meanings of words.
quackers: “that you can give an example like this yet still deny rape culture is really something. There is no point in even debating this with you any further.”
A vast majority of officers I have spoken to about this issue have said the officer handled it wrong. If most officers believe it was handled wrong then I have a hard time accepting it as evidence of a rape CULTURE since most would not have handled it that way. If it was part of the culture, most would handle it that way.
It’s good that you disagree with MRAs sometimes, but as a whole your blog does come across as being very MRA-like. FYI, my last job title was “Editor”, so that’s a professional opinion. If your intent is simply to get your feelings out as part of the healing process, then it doesn’t really matter how you come across, but if it’s to convince others of your perspective then you are currently failing to do so.
That would also apply to your comments here, by the way.
Cassandra: I am familiar with Yes means Yes. In fact, there are many comments by me on the false accusation link you provided. I was in an argument with an actual troll over there who thought my bringing up my false accusation in a discussion of false accusations made me a rape apologist (or something like that)
I agree with many of the things said on yes means yes. I am all for the concept of enthusiastic consent because then you leave no doubt as to what your desires are and your partner can have no doubt as well.
I promise I will do some more research into the arguments made in support of the idea that we live in a rape culture. I will look into several of the links provided here as jumping off points. But I am just saying that from what I have seen so far, many of the examples have nothing to do with rape. So how can they be proof that we are in a rape culture?
Cassandra: “It’s good that you disagree with MRAs sometimes, but as a whole your blog does come across as being very MRA-like.”
Examples? To me, MRA are not just people who talk about false rape accusations and perceived reverse sexism in our country. In order to be an MRA you have to do so in a very hateful way, especially towards women.
And if there is ANYTHING on my blog that is doing that, please tell me as that was not my intent at all.
I deny it because I do not see it
I know of someone who made a report about being slipped some drugs and then raped. The officer actually asked if she enjoyed it.
How do you go straight from “I don’t see any examples of rape culture” to “here’s an obvious example of rape culture I saw”?
And if you don’t believe being questioned on whether you enjoyed being raped is an example of rape culture, answer me this: have you ever heard of a victim being asked, “Did you enjoy being mugged?” or “Did you enjoy being shot?” or “Did you enjoy having your belongings stolen?” I’m going to guess the answer is “no.” And one more, even more important question: that cop who asked that utterly insane question – was he immediately fired? Did his supervisors and colleagues denounce his behavior? Because if not – if, in fact, he was rightly confident that such behavior would be widely condoned, and he continues to work as a cop – how in the hell is that NOT evidence of a larger rape culture?
(Also, you really ought to go back and read the post you were linked to. You’ve obviously had time to do so, since you’ve had time to keep arguing here.)