What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
Stephanie, for what I know, it does. Maybe he’ll confirm that later.
Now, if someone could explain me what it is exactly… The skate park down my building is covered with stickers of the “NWO wants you to lie” and things like that, because I live across the Atlantic and I would have thought that was an Americano-American conspiracy theory.
And I don’t really get what’s it’s about, is it here already, is it coming? is it a good or bad thing? How is it going to happen, (if it’s not already there) If it is bad, what’s the counter attack plan? Are the feminists controlled by it, controlling it? Who is it, btw?
I’m a bit lost.
Kyrie: I will admit that I was using just the quotes that David used and not the entirety of the quotes used in the study.
Those two quotes cited by David, attributed to rapists, are not condoning rape. (2 and 9 from the list) I would also say that 1, 5, and 13 also are not condoning rape (though 13 is still highly awful and potentially abusive but not sexually so).
7, 11, and 14 should be seen as condoning rape.
And where did I say that condoning rape = saying “rape is awesome”?
I reject the idea that someone who makes a rape joke must be classified in either two of your pigeonholes.
I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd .
@Kyrie
I really hope his username does stand for “New World Order Slave.” I’ve been reading his comments on this blog, and I think that would explain a lot. He doesn’t understand how the world *actually* works, so he reads all kinds of crap on the internet about conspiracies. He seems to think of feminism as a conspiracy as well.
And from what I know about it, the NWO has something to do with all kinds of elite people, with all kinds of elite strategies, and with all kinds of elite ways to coordinate together, trying to take over the world. The idea is that they are supposed to create some sort of “one world government”. I think they’re supposed to achieve this by slowly “taking away rights”.
Its a hot mess. Its basically for people that have no idea how social movements, states, etc. actually function.
But if NWOSlave actually does believe in this, it would explain his feminist beliefs as well.
Maybe he thinks feminism is part of the NWO? Maybe he’s read this book (I found this the other day):
http://www.amazon.com/Cruel-Hoax-Feminism-World-Order/dp/096877251X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
I think “NWO wants you to lie” has something to do with the idea that the NWO is coming, but nobody knows about it and that’s why its going to succeed, and you’re lying if you don’t want to admit its existence? Or something. Who knows, lol.
The New World Order conspiracy theory is more like a loose collection of several conspiracy theories. I know both liberals and conservatives who talk about it. Basically, whatever your personal “boogeyman” is becomes the group who is conspiring for global domination. For example, if you’re a white supremacist bigot, it’s the “Zionist bankers.” I have a liberal friend who is quite a tinfoil hattie and she thinks it’s “scientists” and “the government,” who use “black ops” and secret technology like HAARP to cause global mayhem by triggering things like earthquakes (for example, she says the recent earthquake in Japan was caused by the United States and a weaponized earthquake caused by HAARP).
The Rothschild crap that NWO spews here is part of the anti-Semitic side of the conspiracy theory. Otherwise you have the Masons and the Illuminati, who may or may not be lizard people, depending on which crackpot you’re talking to.
Oh the New World Order seems to be a catch-all term for the organization that runs everything in various conspiracy theories. In fundamentalist Christian conspiracy circles it’s tied into the apocalypse and the anti-christ. To white supremacist conspiracy theorists its the Jews. Some chuck in aliens, others the occult, the really kooky ones mix it all up into a nice big ball of stupid.
See, the thing is, that because the NWO doesn’t exist it can contain all the things (and people) you hate. A rather convenient tool to justify your delusions.
Ironically enough it seems like feminists are the only group NOT mentioned on the wikipedia page for the NWO conspiracy…and that’s because feminists secretly run the NWO and organize it so that no-one mentions their involvement. Evidence!
Many people also have no problem insinuating that a victim was “asking for it” if she was dressed too “slutty” or drinking, or based on how many partners she had in the past.
Most people think murder is wrong, yet never insinuate that a murder victim was asking for it. Nor do the courts try to pin the responsibility and blame on the murder victim.
I suggest you actually look up what rape culture is. It’s not saying rape is okay, but it does accept certain attitudes like the ones that the convicted rapists quoted. It does accept the idea that women don’t know what they want and that no means yes. It does try to paint men getting women drunk on purpose in order to get their guard down as something normal and to be expected. It enables PUAs to make money off of their coercive and manipulative techniques.
I thought the “New World Order” was the plan to achieve a one-world government? Or is that just one part of many of these conspiracy theories?
“Ironically enough it seems like feminists are the only group NOT mentioned on the wikipedia page for the NWO conspiracy…and that’s because feminists secretly run the NWO and organize it so that no-one mentions their involvement. Evidence!”
Haha.
this explains it pretty well: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/rape-culture-101/
Quackers: I wish you would have included the whole paragraph in your quote: What I said was: “I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd:
People could take your inclusion of only the last two sentences really badly.
“Many people also have no problem insinuating that a victim was “asking for it” if she was dressed too “slutty” or drinking, or based on how many partners she had in the past.”
Many does not mean most. I believe that most people believe that those three things do not equate with consent to sex.
“Most people think murder is wrong, yet never insinuate that a murder victim was asking for it. Nor do the courts try to pin the responsibility and blame on the murder victim.”
In murder cases the victim is not around to question the credibility of the claims being made. We also know that the person in question is dead. If there are issues that could damage the credibility of the accuser, such things are relevant in a criminal trial. (Dressing in a short skirt, drinking, or enjoying a variety of men are not things that should ever be taken as removing credibility).
I think we still have a culture with institutionalized sexism. I think that is wrong and needs to change. But I have looked into what people mean when we live in a rape culture. I have also seen many examples of “proof” cited to prove that we live in a rape culture and I just don’t buy it. I think many examples of the “proof” do prove that we have institutionalized sexism though.
Nobody I know, and hardly anybody I see, suggests that no means yes. Most people I am aware of view the purposeful attempt to get someone drunk just to have sex with them as rape as well. Again, that is why I disagree with the notion that our culture just accepts these things. It does not. I see more people claiming that if two drunk people hook up that it must be the male raping the female (even though the man was drunk too, so how did he consent?)
I promise I will read that entire page later. Even if there is a rape culture, comments like this do not help to support it and help to make the author look like a kook.
“Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality. ”
Neither of those things have anything to do with rape! So how is it proof of a rape culture?
Heterosexuality is the “norm”. It is most common. That I acknowledge that fact does not mean I believe there is anything wrong with people who are naturally oriented to other forms of sexuality.
And I am completely annoyed with those who try and suggest that if we allow same gender marriage then why wouldn’t we allow people to marry their dogs. It is an illogical argument on many levels and typically made by the worst people in the religious conservative ranks. But it has nothing to do with rape. So how is it proof of (or an example of) a rape culture?
As a long time follower of conspiracy theories left, right, and center, and what I like to call “skeptically paranoid” I could start and not stop when it comes to NWO theories, but for starters I cannot rec enough Robert Anton Wilson’s Everything’s Under Control.
http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Under-Control-Conspiracies-Cover-ups/dp/0062734172/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_10 😉
@Kyrie
Or “If a woman wants to have sex with you, she will wear sexy clothes and show off her body while flirting”. The sentence becomes rapey once you know a rapist said it and can thus speculate better on the intent, but without that knowledge it may well be a clumsy formulation of something that is probably true.
5 is slightly similar. If such a thing does happen, it is kind of mean, and probably a good idea to limit contact with that person. It’s certainly not a justification for rape, because nothing ever is, of course. And once you know it’s a rapist it seems likely that the “teasing” was all in his head. But it’s not completely unreasonable to read it as not rapey.
I agree with you on 9, however isn’t the point that participants did not know which quote was by a rapist and which one wasn’t.
7, 11, and 14 are cases that seem unmistakably rapey to me. 2 and 13 pretty much as well, although one could try to make a case there that it’s just generally pretty bad comments.
In some cases I can see a non-rapist interpretation of a rapist statement, and a rapist interpretation of a magazine statement. That’s not surprising; language is ambiguous and context matters. Also, wasn’t there a big discussion in another thread yesterday on how it’s impossible to determine who is a rapist and who isn’t, and that therefore rape prevention does not work?
The participants also identified on average with the rapists’ quote more than with the magazines’. Looking at the quotes, some of the magazine ones seem ridiculously stupid. “If you can make a woman want to sleep with you, she will be more likely to sleep with you”, “if a woman dresses up for you, she may want to sleep with you” and even “Getting dick-teased sucks” seem more reasonable than “It’s exiting when there’s a chance that I will die during sex!” or “prostitutes are better than girlfriends!”.
And when the participants were told that a statement was by a rapist they rated it as less acceptable. Seems like adding context helps people judge sentences.
I’d really like to read the actual study to find out more about their process of item selection and procedure. The press release is quite thin on actual info, and some quantitative results would be nice too. This type of research is really difficult to do.
NWO sound great! I like the part about about the lizard people.
lj4a:
“Those two quotes cited by David, attributed to rapists, are not condoning rape. […] 1, 5, and 13 also are not condoning rape […].”
Not all quote are directly condoning. But they all are full of sexism that enable the rapist to self justify and therefore are part of the rape culture. All the quotes are about the idea that the victim wanted the sexual relation,or deserved it as a punishment, or that the rapist deserved it, as a man.
Actually, you might want to check what Meller said very recently:
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/08/how-to-creep-out-the-entire-internet-lovelorn-banker-edition/comment-page-7/#comment-94789
It’s very similar, in the way that it does not directly condone rape or abuse but justify nonetheless by claiming that some behaviors (mostly imaginary) provoke the attack.
You should bear in mind that I’m not in any way stretching the meaning of these quotes, there directly drawn from interviews of rapists trying to justify their actions and explaining their mindset.
“And where did I say that condoning rape = saying “rape is awesome”?”
It was in response to your claim that the quotes were not condoning rape. But I think we agree on the subject.
“I reject the idea that someone who makes a rape joke must be classified in either two of your pigeonholes.”
What do you disagree with, the comparison with racist jokes or the idea that racist jokes are harmful in a racist context? Do you think treating rape as a light subject is harmless?
“I also have problems with the idea that we live in a […] “false rape culture”” as MRA like to claim).”
I just checked the website linked to your name, “falsely accused”. I can’t say I’m not surprised given the sentence above. Not that it necessarily oppose what you said, though.
On the rape culture, others answered and quite well.
@lj4adotcomdan
You’re missing the point. Straight sexuality, as the “norm” (aka most socially valuable form of sexuality–so no, being the “norm” does not mean its just more prevalent) does not exist in a vacuum. There are power relations WITHIN heterosexual relations, and these are what legitimize and reinforce rape culture.
In other words, there is a certain power dynamic between males and females–this is a heteronormative power dynamic. Within our heteronormative society, males are supposed to pursue women, and women are supposed to be pursued. This is an inherently unequal power dynamic.
This is considered natural, legitimate, and normal–hence, “the norm.”
When men are constructed as the pursuers/initiators, women are given no agency. They are constructed to be pursued, to be preyed on, to be groped on the subway, to be raped.
THAT is rape culture.
I totally believe it. It’s like they’re all written by the same 20-year old creepy rapist dudebro. Maxim is the worst. I browsed about their website once and I swear I almost punched my computer (I was reading an article on how to treat female coworkers. Maxim’s answer- as your half-witted office slaves, apparently). And this was before their reprehensible ‘cure a feminist’ article- http://www.ltcconline.net/lukas/gender/political/pics/political21.jpg
I will never fuck a man who reads maxim.
Well, perhaps they are sexist. Someone can be sexist and find rape abhorrent.
Rapists will use anything to justify their rapes. Sexism, religion, etc. My point is that a person agreeing with a quote that a rapist made (even if the rapist used the quote to justify a rape) doesn’t make that agreement a condoning of rape (especially if the person doesn’t know it was made by a rapist).
“What do you disagree with, the comparison with racist jokes or the idea that racist jokes are harmful in a racist context? Do you think treating rape as a light subject is harmless?”
I wasn’t commenting on the racism jokes. I was saying that a rape joke doesn’t have to be classified as something A) to mock rapists or B) to trivialize rape.
“I just checked the website linked to your name, “falsely accused”. I can’t say I’m not surprised given the sentence above. Not that it necessarily oppose what you said, though.”
I am really not sure what you are saying here. Could you clarify it? Are you suggesting that because I have a website that deals with the topic of false accusations of rape (and potentially other crimes as well) that it is surprising that I would deny that we live in a “false rape society”?
If so, my response would be that while I was once falsely accused of sexual assault that I do not believe that we live in a society that believes false accusations of sexual assault are ok.
I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and they blame the women (who are the majority of victims) for not dressing right, drinking right, acting right, etc. Holyfuckingdickbiscuit, an 11 year old girl gangraped in her neighborhood was blamed for wearing makeup.
We live in a rape culture–but a whole lot of people are in denial about it as long as they can blame and shame the victims.
And pretty much ignore it on the level of the justice system, like this report on the number of rape kits that go untested attests:
http://jezebel.com/5610550/the-shocking-numbers-on-untested-rape-kits
Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd:
Oh, you’re one of those trolls–the ones who come in and equate rape and false rape accusations.
Fuckit, no need to even pretend–all the trolls who come in with the “it’s equally BAAAAAAAAAAAD” always end up flashing their true MRA trolly colors very quickly.
*yawns*
Meller seeks to excuse the perpetrator of violence and shift the blame squarely to the feminists for provoking it: I immediately dubbed it as rape apologetics and told Dunning-Kruger Man to fuck off, but apologising for an aggressor beating or killing a woman, while painting him as being as white as snow, is just as bad. (Gendering here matches Meller’s comment.)
Stephanie: “You’re missing the point. ”
If we really did live in a “rape culture”, I would love for someone to be able to shine the light on me and reveal it.
“Straight sexuality, as the “norm” (aka most socially valuable form of sexuality–so no, being the “norm” does not mean its just more prevalent) ”
Why does being “the norm” have to mean socially valuable and not just more prevalent? In fact, I would argue that claiming something is the norm assigns value to it is going beyond the definition of what the term “the norm” means.
“There are power relations WITHIN heterosexual relations, and these are what legitimize and reinforce rape culture. ”
Perhaps that is somewhere in that page I promised to read later. But it has nothing to do with the part I quoted from the page. The section I was quoting had to do with those who denigrate anything that is not heterosexual and using such denigrations as proof that a rape culture exists when it does no such thing.
But I will comment on those other power relations that you brought up, since you brought them up.
“In other words, there is a certain power dynamic between males and females–this is a heteronormative power dynamic.”
Heteronormative means that people are viewed as most likely to be heterosexual. It doesn’t say anything about the power dynamic that comes with it. There very well could be a heteronormative culture where women have all the power and men have none. So the power structures you speak of have nothing to do with the fact that the culture is heteronormative.
“Within our heteronormative society, males are supposed to pursue women, and women are supposed to be pursued. This is an inherently unequal power dynamic.”
I agree that such a power structure is unequal. It is undoubtedly sexist. I think it is less prevalent than it used to be as it is more accepted for a woman to pursue what she wants. I do not have data that says if it is ok for women to be the pursuer now or not. So I cannot say that most people accept or reject this power dynamic.
“When men are constructed as the pursuers/initiators, women are given no agency. They are constructed to be pursued, to be preyed on, to be groped on the subway, to be raped.”
Even if I were to accept that most people today still believe the role of the man is to pursue and the role of the woman is to be pursued, it takes a rather large leap to go from “they are to be pursued” to “they are to be raped”. Just because a person believes than men should make the first move, it doesn’t mean that the person believes men have the right to rape and grope. I would argue that even if most people agreed with the power dynamic that places men as the pursuers that it doesn’t mean that most people agree that it means women are to be preyed on, groped or raped.
Ithilana: “Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd:
Oh, you’re one of those trolls–the ones who come in and equate rape and false rape accusations.
Fuckit, no need to even pretend–all the trolls who come in with the “it’s equally BAAAAAAAAAAAD” always end up flashing their true MRA trolly colors very quickly.
*yawns*”
No. I do not equate rape and false rape accusations.
But you are one of the trolls who believes that just because someone mentions the two in a sentence that the person is automatically viewing them as equal. I am sick and tired of your type.
And again, the quote was taken out of context. The claims I find absurd are the claims that we live in a rape society or that we live in a false rape society.
Yeah, but since one is true and one is false, I don’t give a fuck about your false equivalencies.
My mistake.
is many not enough? those attitudes should be on the fringe of society, instead they’re still very common. When a cop thinks its legitimate advice to tell women not to dress like sluts in order to avoid being raped, I think we have a problem. Read the rest of the article, it gives more examples of how the “asking for it” notion still puts victims through hell.
Fine. Robbery, assault, etc. It doesn’t really matter. If the crime isn’t rape, then victim blaming simply doesn’t exist. No one tells a robbery victim that if they don’t want to be robbed they shouldn’t buy a nice house or own expensive things. Even if they forget to lock the door the police are still going to treat the break in seriously and still place the blame on the thieves who willingly made a choice to break in (like a rapist who willingly makes the choice to rape.) Also no one asks an assault victim if what they were wearing potentially gave the person who assaulted them the wrong idea, thus asking to be assaulted.
It’s true, short skirts, drinking and being with different men shouldn’t be taken as removing credibility, but it still does. And even if the courts actually follow rape shield laws, that doesn’t stop the media from having a field day at the victim’s expense.
institutionalized sexism contributes to rape culture very much. Its the age old idea that women’s sexuality is dirty and punishable, that the mere sight of a woman incites uncontrollable lust in men (short skirt? she should have known better!) These ideas, though becoming more rare, still influence how people think about rape.
Either way, if you can recognize that those proofs are problematic and need changing, then it doesn’t really matter what name you call it by in my opinion.
Well that’s great that you know decent people, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I think there is some legitimate proof that rape culture exists, or institutionalized sexism as you prefer to call it. I see those proofs on forums/internet comments, in the news, in jokes, in popular culture and in PUA “teachings”. You should take a look at the way our trolls and other MRAs treat the subject of rape and so called “slutty women” sometime too. Even this study should tell you something is really wrong.
As for the drunk hook-ups, I believe sleeping with someone who is way to drunk to consent is now considered rape regardless of who does it. It should be regarded common sense not to hook up with a drunk person, but like I mentioned before, that behavior is normalized.
And regarding the heterosexual norm example, see Stephanie’s comment.
Ithiliana: How on earth can you respond to a post in its entirety and then in the very next post take part of that post out of context? Wow.
“We live in a rape culture–but a whole lot of people are in denial about it as long as they can blame and shame the victims.”
I deny it because I do not see it and much of the proof given is either flawed or has nothing to do with rape at all, even tangentially. It has nothing to do with victim blaming or victim shaming. People who are victims should not be blamed or shamed.
“And pretty much ignore it on the level of the justice system, like this report on the number of rape kits that go untested attests:”
If a rape kit is taken, and investigation should be made. That some go untested is a failure of the system. Perhaps more funding needs to be provided so that they can be tested. Perhaps more training needs to be given to law enforcement on how to better investigate accusations of rape. But the failures on the part of the justice system doesn’t mean we live in a “rape culture”.
ithiliana: “Yeah, but since one is true and one is false, I don’t give a fuck about your false equivalencies.”
Since I did not attempt to equate them, there was no false equivalency. Had I said “rape is equal to false accusations of rape” then you would be 100% spot on correct without a doubt that I made a false equivalency. But I did not say that. You just assumed. You were wrong.