What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
“Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
NWOslave?”
Actually, I’m willing to bet that the guy who said that was using “girl” to mean “adult, but I’m too sexist and condescending to call her a woman”. In NWO’s case, he’d probably be talking about an actual girl, as in a female child. (How old were those kids on the beach in their oh so sexy swimsuits again?)
NWO – Creepier than at least one convicted rapist.
I got 10/15 right, 0 that I agree with and 15 that I found creepy.
ScheherezadeI usually lurk here, but would just like to point out that quite apart from the usual MRA rhetoric, substitution in Latin requires a heck of a lot more than a vague memory from Gladiator, like, you know, DECLINING YOUR NOUNS.
Yeah, I saw that too.
My #1 sexual fantasy is pegging a guy up the bum, but none of the roving gangs of men who go around fulfilling women’s sexual fantasies without even needing to be asked (isn’t that nice of them?) seem interested in that.
jesus christ, aren’t some of you guys in school? It’s finals week, How the uck can you spend so much goddamn time on here?
O that’s right, you’re all sociology and spychology majros and shit. GUESS WHAT? I’ve been up 36 hours straight!!!!!!!! That’s what consequentiasl majors do.
FUCK U
useless majors:
english
sociology
women’s studies
black people studies
psychoklogy
philosophy
good majors:
science
math
Is it telling that seeing the line at the top of the magazine cover pictured made me think:
The MRA: When Brahs can’t cope.
Welcome to the land of disgusting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OdQGbVNa4
Isn’t this a little disingenuous? I mean, I am sure the quotes they picked were not randomly selected. They were purposefully picked to get the worse from these “lad mags” so that they sound enough like the words from the rapists. But they pick the words of the rapists that do not actually condone rape. The quotes from the rapists basically say that a woman is more willing to do things with you if you are able to convince them to and that when some men will see an attractive woman that they will imagine what they might do with such a woman. That is not a shocker. And yes, I agree with the comments from the rapists more than I agree with the comments from the “lad mag”. What does that mean?
It is like this silly test that I had to take when applying for a job. One of the questions went like this. “I am more angry than nervous”. I had four choices, Strongly agree, agree, strongly disagree or disagree. Well, I am hardly ever angry and I am hardly ever nervous. But if I had to say one over the other I would say that I might get angry more often than I get nervous. But that doesn’t mean I would lose my temper on the job. It was absolutely irrelevant.
So…. I agree with a rapist that seducing a woman (i.e. making her attracted enough to you that she wants to have consensual sex with you) makes you more likely to have sex with her and that sometimes when I see a woman who is attractive I might think “damn, that must be nice”. I disagree that screwing a crying woman is the answer to her problems and that “warming a girl up” doesn’t necessarily mean she will do anything you want. So that means what exactly?
What is the point these researchers are trying to make?
And I do not even know the context in which the quotes from the “lad mag” were given. I mean, if the first one was given as a serious bit of advice or was given as a joke… I don’t know. I do not have the entire article to make that determination.
@Holly: Interestingly, when I did a search to fact check NWO, I believe I happened to land on whatever health/sexuality website he used to justify his belief because, yeah, rape fantasies were #1. Second place? Pegging.
Here’s some Game for you PUA enthusiasts: developping an interest in a fantasy that is niche amongst men but second most popular amongst women is probably going to help you differentiate yourself on the meat market. 😉
@zhinxy
(Sorry, I know the conversation’s gone on but I had add…)
Yes! We need more of Matt Smith talking to babies! I also want to do an experiment in which he talks to a box of kittens, a baby llama, and a very small fainting goat. (To further test the range of sheer adorableness!)
The fact that it was possible for them to do so is a problem in itself.
Since we’re discussing a convicted rapist, wouldn’t that imply that his ideas of acceptable techniques for obtaining a woman’s consent might be a little less benign than you make them sound?
I’m sure a lot of rapists do consider their techniques “seduction.” This is because they’re deluding themselves and trying to make their victims sound unreasonable. Just because a rapist calls it “seduction” doesn’t mean it actually was.
“The fact that it was possible for them to do so is a problem in itself.”
No, because as I said later, who is to say that the quotes were taken out of context. What if the comment about screwing a crying woman was just a tasteless joke not meant to be taken seriously? I cannot know because I do not have the context in which it was given.
“Since we’re discussing a convicted rapist, wouldn’t that imply that his ideas of acceptable techniques for obtaining a woman’s consent might be a little less benign than you make them sound?”
No. Not every person a rapist has sex with is a victim of rape. Notice the quote. “You can usually seduce them and they will do it willingly”. Now, I think it is likely that if the rapist failed in his seduction and that she was unwilling to do what he wanted that the rapist is more likely to then take what he wanted by force. But it is possible that a person who has been convicted of rape may have very well convinced some women to have consensual sex with them in a benign way.
Him being a rapist does not mean he uses malignant ways to obtain consent. It means he has, on at least one occasion and likely on more occasions than that, has ignored consent to begin with.
Here’s the thing. The actions that a rapist might call “seduction” are merely methods of removing a person’s ability to say no. As in; making sure s/he’s drunk to the point of semi- or unconsciousness. Refusing to leave and harassing him or her until s/he’s broken down to the point where letting you go ahead is the only option because then maybe you might fucking LEAVE. Manipulating a teenager who is under your authority. A rapist will use the word seduction even when his(*) actions are in fact criminal assault.
Actual seduction entails charming the other person so that they want you. Removing that person’s ability to say no when they want to say no is not seduction. It is rape.
(*Yes, I understand that women can be rapists. And that men can be raped. Until there is a widely accepted gender neutral pronoun in our language, I have to choose.)
-sigh- blockquote fail
I’m sure a lot of rapists do consider their techniques “seduction.” This is because they’re deluding themselves and trying to make their victims sound unreasonable. Just because a rapist calls it “seduction” doesn’t mean it actually was.
Ultimately, the rapist definition of seduction is irrelevant. How the people questioned for the study define seduction is what is relevant.
But the quote does include “do it willingly”, implying that there was consent. And again, the definition of what consent is to a rapist is not relevant. What is relevant is the definition of consent to the person being asked the question as part of the study. And most people define consent to sexual behavior as agreeing to the acts, hopefully enthusiastically so.
I failed at the quote thing to. The first paragraph in my last post should be quoted.
“And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.”
That is what I am focusing on here. That a respondent identifies with quotes made by a rapist doesn’t mean that they agree with the rapist on what the quotes mean. If the rapist includes the use of Rohypnol as part of seduction, it doesn’t mean that the respondent also agrees that the use of Rohypnol to get someone into bed is a valid form of seduction.
It just means that the respondent believes that if one seduces a woman she is more likely to crawl into bed, or a back seat, with you and have sexual intercourse. The respondent is likely not a rapist and as such would typically use ethical and legal means to attempt to seduce a woman.
on what the research means (from the video in the first link)
I disagree. When people condone rape, it’s not as simple as “Isn’t rape a fun activity!??”, it is exactly what these rapists said?
1. Sexy/skin showing clothing indicate desire to sex. (see “a woman sexuality is her body”)
2. Objectification of women.
5. Women who reject you:doesn’t have have sex with you intent to hurt you.
7. Gendered insults and well… this one actually says that rape is okay in response to women acting like “bitches”
9. This one, I agree is not so simple to analyze without knowing the source, and ergo the context. However, when you know it is from an interview with a rapist, it become obvious that it is about getting around the lack of consent without, as much as possible, resorting to violence or direct threats. In case I’m not being clear, here is an illustration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1lc6KASWg
11. Again, wearing sexy clothes is asking for sex/accepting sex. It doesn’t matter what the woman actually says, her clothing equals “I accept sex with you”
13. Men must dominate women.
14. Women clothes should be regulated by law. Again, wearing sexy clothes is asking for sex/accepting sex.
So, only sexists and creepy quotes. Nothing about how they love their pet or the weather or their best pick-up lines, just a explanation about why what they did should have been ok or at least they thought it was.
And yet, lads’ mags quotes are not worse, not enough that men would be capable to differentiate them.
You’ll also note that sexism is viewed has more acceptable when brought by lads’ mags.
The content would be useful, but we don’t need it. Rape jokes are a part of the rape culture, the same way racist jokes are a part of the racism culture. Unless the point of the joke is “haha, rape/misogyny/racism/… is a stupid thing”, its result – if not its intent – is to trivialize the subject.
@NWOSlave
Just wondering… is your name supposed to stand for “New World Order Slave”?
why am ii on FUCKING MODERATION STILL???