What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
i have nothing further to say to you darksidecat.
Hey, Dan. I’m gonna try to give you some advice here.
I don’t think you are necessarily being intellectually dishonest. I think you are probably the type of person who is intellectually insecure, and feels the need to get out all of his “worries” about a topic, and who has to get them ALL ADDRESSED RIGHT NOW before he can believe what people are telling him.
I don’t think this is particularly abnormal, but you have to realize that your standards for believing most things or policing evidential standards or whatever aren’t that high. When you ask somebody at the grocery store what price an unmarked item is (let’s say a pack of celery), and they tell you that it’s $4, you don’t insist to see the manager and the product buyer and commodities pricing for vegetables and so on and so on. If a friend makes a scientific claim that you think is kind of shady, you look it up on the internet, maybe find a book or some papers on the subject and check, and then you say, “hey, did you know you’re wrong about that? here’s some evidence!” and then you’re done. You don’t bother them for the next three days about it, especially if they misspoke, or used a term unconventionally.
This is why people are angry at you– the fact that you’re harping on the word “prevalent”, and saying people are insulting you for pointing out holes in your arguments, etc. indicates that you are motivated to treat the issue of rape differently than you treat the issue of celery prices or science facts. This means you have some thinking to do about why you feel that way.
You said you just changed your mind on the rape culture thing, so you have some intellectual connections you need to make with other topics, your emotional responses still need to change w/r/t that, you should probably go read some of the things ithiliana posted so you can be more educated, and so forth. This means you should take a break from posting here and go do some reading and thinking by yourself for a while, and just listen to what people have to say about the issue. You can listen without interrogating. If you still have questions you can ask them but do it one at a time, and really listen to the answers. Don’t jump all over yourself to tear holes in an argument– criticism is hard and you need to think a while to understand just why something is wrong.
So take a break, Dan, please, this is getting frustrating for everyone I think. We don’t have anything else we can really tell you at this point.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/113/729/look-at-all-the-fucks-i-dont-give-theyre-just-falling-from-the-sky.jpg?1318992465
kladle: It is not that I am frustrated that people are poking holes in my arguments. One huge hole was poked in my argument and I accepted that.
And I really do not want to come of sounding all high and mighty (because I am not), but I am very secure in my intellect. I pride myself on being very well informed on issues and seeking to understand other people’s reasons behind the issues. For example, I am not the kind of guy to just listen to a talking head about issues. When the healthcare bill came up for a vote, I took it upon myself to actually read the entire bill(s) so I could be well informed enough to debate it with others. And when my Congressman at the time (a Republican) held a town hall. I was able to challenge him on his assertions that a certain section was about restricting care when in fact it was really about restricting cost sharing.
I think a lot of people assume that this thread was the first time I had ever considered anything about rape culture. It is an issue I have been thinking about and researching for a very long time. In my research I found many disturbing things about rape in this country but none of them were enough to make me think that what is going on should be described as a rape culture because nothing I had read put the whole argument together for me like the one post made here that was logically sound and pretty much explained it in a way that I had never thought about it before.
What I am upset that people are misrepresenting me as a person. Misrepresenting my words. Saying I believe certain things when I don’t. Even making ridiculous claims like I do not have an open mind when I clearly was willing to change my mind on this issue once presented with an argument that clicked for me.
And yes, I likely should step away and drop it and let things cool off. I am trying to be better about that insecurity about me that compels me to correct people who say false things about me. But it is hard. Very hard.
And to respond to one other thing you said… Shouldn’t rape be treated differently than the issue of celery prices?
I do appreciate and thank you for saying that you do not think i am being intellectually dishonest.
But I still would like to know what I did that may have triggered people as I really and truly do not want to cause anyone pain and I do wish to avoid doing that if possible.
And that’s why a lot of people are treating you like an ass. Because that’s an insufferably smug attitude.
I am not a sexual assault survivor so I’m not in danger of being triggered, and I have the time/energy to try to educate you, so I will try here. Don’t expect other people to be able to do that, though. I am unusually accommodating.
Yes and no. Yes, of course, because it is a lot more serious in a number of ways. The “no” is that when people tell you something, you ought not to pester them about proving its truth unless you have a damn good reason to suspect that they are lying or misrepresenting things, or unless you are in a context like a courtroom or a philosophy class or the town hall meeting you mentioned where picking apart statements is normal and expected.
Yes, you should. I think your insistence on some small points, like semantics issues, has led everyone to talk past each other. What views you share in common with the posters here about rape has been overshadowed by your doggedness about personal insults and defending your honor. That’s why people here have been saying you’re derailing and stuff; the discussion here has become more about your feelings and how you’re being represented than about David’s post or even trying to learn about rape culture.
Here’s why you were triggering and upsetting for a lot of people:
Bee said this:
People were very open with you and shared their own painful experiences, and you did not acknowledge that, and instead nitpicked them like they were… well, celery prices (and this is where that difference is important). You have to show a certain amount of sensitivity when dealing with loaded issues like that, which we haven’t seen you show. And you don’t get to decide whether you’ve been appropriately sensitive, the people who have been raped and have shared their stories are the ones who get to decide that. I mean, you got mad at Pecunium when he said that false accusations aren’t a big issue, since that’s something that affected you. The same thing with the rape survivors here– you blabbing about frequencies in the face of their stories looks like dismissal, and they got understandably mad. Especially since those sorts of “counterarguments” are straight out of rape culture and apologetics for rape. You might not know that, but they are common in the MRA world and in the greater public for downplaying people’s experiences of sexual assault, and are used to excuse rapists’ behavior in court and elsewhere. So you have to be very careful and educate yourself before trying to be critical of these things, so you don’t inadvertently use the very same bad and hurtful arguments.
Ithiliana said this:
Unfortunately, feminist blogs get these same sorts of questions that you are asking, framed in the same way, over and over and over again. It gets very tiring to answer them, and as a whole (not necessarily at the individual level, but as the aggregate of every man who comes in and asks), it amounts to trolling, because it regularly interrupts every serious discussion of what to do about sexism, rape, or any other social justice issue. Frequently, people wield these questions as a weapon– as a SO HUH WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT THIS ARGUMENT!?!?!– instead of as a genuine request for education. At the societal level, asking these questions has the function of basically shutting down genuine conversation about social justice issues. It’s like when a white person interrupts a discussion about social issues in hip hop with “so why don’t I get to say ‘nigga’ and black people do!?!?!” The whole conversation ends up grinding to a halt while everyone tries to address the complex history of the n-word and reclaiming and all that. It can be an extra offensive and disruptive thing to do then if the person in question doesn’t seem to be listening and picks every argument to death– you’ve come into a space that isn’t yours, demanded answers (yes, demanded; you are persistent and repetitive and insist we answer) to questions that are so problematic that it’s hard to even know how to begin to address them, and then won’t listen when you get said answers!
Now please shhhhhhhhhhh and think for a while.
Here are three more things for you to read (don’t come in here and talk about them! just sit and think about them):
On the issue of how “innocent” questioning can be trolling (it’s very sarcastic and mean but it explains everything): http://derailingfordummies.com/
Answers to basic questions about feminism and feminist issues, that you should know before you go bothering people in feminist spaces, who may not have the time or energy to educate you: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
On why your intent mostly doesn’t matter when you say harmful things (also very sarcastic, but it is good): http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
Over on Pharyngula I noticed PZ Myers had a relevant post up, so rather than paraphrasing it I’ll quote some of it:
Now, unless I’m mistaken, women are in the majority in terms of population demographics of the United States, so basically your argument over the word “prevalent” in terms of a 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 lifetime risk for women – which has ramifications for all women living in the United States – doesn’t actually count semantically as “prevalent”. Since women are actually the majority (0.97 males per each female), I beg to differ that rape culture effects only a minority.
* affects (I hate it when I stuff that up!)
More figures for you, and by the way, the CDC used the word prevalence, so deal with it.
Excerpting data from: Table 2 .1
Lifetime and 12 Month Prevalence of Sexual Violence — U .S . Women, NISVS 2010
[These are the Lifetime percentages only]
Rape: 18.3%
– Completed forced penetration: 12.3%
– Attempted forced penetration: 5.2%
– Completed alcohol/drug facilitated: 8.0%
(These three sub-categories overlap within the 18.3% figure for rape)
Other Sexual Violence: 44.6%
– Sexual coercion: 13.0%
– Unwanted sexual contact: 27.2%
– Non-contact unwanted sexual experiences: 33.7%
(And again, these three sub-categories overlap within the 44.6% for other sexual violence)
The first time an adult man made a pass at me (pass is understating it a bit, since he dragged me into a bedroom and didn’t let me go until I threatened to go tell his wife), I was about 10 or 11. But hey, I had boobs, so I was totally old enough. (He explained this to me, how it was because I was so “mature” for my age that he just couldn’t help himself).
Oh hey, what does that reasoning sound like? Rape culture. It’s the same logic as “if there’s grass on the field, play ball”, and it can be heard in many different places and contexts in our culture. One might even call it a pervasive attitude, though luckily not a ubiquitous one.
Fascinating that someone can read something about not making conversations all about you, claim to agree with it, and then go on to once again make the conversation all about him. One might even call the need to center himself a noticeably prevalent part of his personality.
(TL;DR doesn’t mean oh noes I am unable to counter your words of wisdom, by the way, it means that your lack of precision and conciseness irritates me. Apparently I am not the only one who feels that way.)
Also, Kladle already tried the kind, polite way of explaining this, so I’m going to try the more direct way.
Most people here are not interested in having a conversation about your honor and how you want to defend it, or how you feel unfairly treated. This is a conversation about rape culture, not a conversation about Dan and how he feels when people think that he is a less than awesome person on the internet. Until you realize and accept that, people will continue to tell you to get lost.
David Futelle [email protected] pm:
“Just catching up with this thread. Monsieur sans nom’s “funny” rape video was obnoxious and inappropriate; I’ve removed it and will put him on moderation.”
Thank you David, I, for one really appreciate that.
@LJ 4: I am an English teacher at a university! I disagree with you! I haz 2 MA and 1 PhD degree and twenty plus years of experience, so I bet I trump your English teacher friend HAH. *whips out c.v. to be ready to give number of books and peer review articles published and oh yes did I mention one of my secondary fields is linguistics including a whole class on the ideology of lexicography*
So much for irrelevant appeal to authority.
The fact that you grudgingly agreed that yes, you now believe rape culture is outweighted by the fact that you are still trolling, still trying to prove you are “correct” in not agreeing to the word “prevalent” (if it comes to a vote, I bet the people on this site plus their friends outnumber you and your friends, so go suck a turd), plus arguing that your “intent” trumps impact of triggering, posting long boring multitudinous screeds all to show that you are right and good and pure and mostly RIGHT, plus all the crap about your logic and reason and junk, outweighs the one grudging agreement which, taken in the totality of your texts, means very little.
Especially when you turn around and try to tell us that our disagreeing with you is keeping “us” from discussing how to reduce rapes. Why aren’t you over on those sites dedicated to men ending rapes trying to support them instead of lecturing us, trolldude?
@LJ: p.s., oh, and the other problem is the way in which you seem to want cookies for recognizing a basic fact of Feminism 101 — i.e. “look I admitted there’s a rape culture”!!!!!!
Big whoop, dude. Here’s a cookie.
Now get on with some actual work if that’s so important to you.
kladle:”People were very open with you and shared their own painful experiences, and you did not acknowledge that, and instead nitpicked them like they were… well, celery prices ”
I didn’t nitpick their rape stories at all and I said, as best as I could, that I was sorry that such things happened to them. That is what I am not getting here. Yes, bee said that. But I do not see where I actually did that.
And that is what is so frustrating.
“The same thing with the rape survivors here– you blabbing about frequencies in the face of their stories looks like dismissal, and they got understandably mad.”
But I was clear that while I didn’t feel that the word itself was an appropriate description that I also was not in any way intending on trying to discount, put down, or in any way make the number seem as if it was irrelevant because I knew it might be possible for someone to hear me JUST say “1 and 6 is not prevalent” in a vacuum and take it as if I was being dismissive. And had I just said “1 and 6 does not mean prevalent” without anything else, then yes I would absolutely see why some might view that comment as insensitive to people who have been raped. But I didn’t just say that, and that is why I am baffled.
“You might not know that, but they are common in the MRA world and in the greater public for downplaying people’s experiences of sexual assault, and are used to excuse rapists’ behavior in court and elsewhere. ”
I am aware of that. That is why I made it a point to say: http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-7/#comment-96576
“So I am not trying to trivialize the 1 in 6 number as that number is hardly trivial. But I am making the point that 1 in 6 does not satisfy the dictionary definition of prevalent. ”
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-7/#comment-96596
“Again, this is not to diminish or in any other way discount or dismiss the numbers as being trivial (as I am afraid some here (not you) might assume if I just leave it at the first sentence alone). ”
So this is why I am not understanding how my words could be taken so completely out of context.
like xanthe did in a post after yours where the comment is made: “I beg to differ that rape culture effects only a minority.”
I NEVER SAID that rape culture would impact only a minority. Of course it would impact the majority.
This is what is happening here. Words I never wrote and feelings I do not have are being attributed to me via extremely illogical leaps because some words I say might have matched what some moron MRA would also say.
At the end of the day, this is the difference between me previously on this thread and an MRA
ME (before the logical argument convinced me otherwise): “I do not believe that there is something called a rape culture. Here are examples A, B and C that explain why I feel the way that I do. Could you please explain to me why you feel there is a rape culture because I might be wrong.”
MRA: “Rape culture is made up bullshit and I don’t care what a feminist says because nothing is going to change my mind.”
LJ4: Something that might be tripping you up.
Saying “I don’t mean to be dismissive, I’m totally not dismissive, I agree that what you’re saying is very important/difficult” does not actually make your statements any less dismissive.
Intent is not magic. You can say “I’m totally not dismissing your experience” but when you follow it with “But I wouldn’t call that rape.” the statement is absolutely meaningless.
Also, things like this;
“So I am not trying to trivialize the 1 in 6 number as that number is hardly trivial. But I am making the point that 1 in 6 does not satisfy the dictionary definition of prevalent. ”
Are extremely dismissive, as well as unnecessarily nit-picky and derailing. What is even the point of saying that? Besides telling a group of feminists and rape survivors that rape isn’t prevalent but still try to maintain your non rape-apologist street cred?
@LJ4: You are being dismissive of the rape survivors who have shared their stories here, and you are being dismissive of the issue of rape in general, because you consider your hurt feelings and frustration a more pressing topic of conversation. You can feel hurt, feel frustrated, and deal with those feelings. Not here.
I think you are well-meaning but clueless, and well-meaning is not a pass to do whatever you want. As has been pointed out to you a few times, intent is not magic. You’re getting on my last nerve, and I’m usually pretty understanding of well-meaning but clueless. Please, please deal with your negative feelings somewhere else, because this is not about you.
Shora: But I have never done anything here that is analogous to telling someone that their experience was not rape.
When I made the comment, i was trying to understand the concept of a rape culture. Not only had I seen a definition that did not make sense to me but I had also seen another site that included several examples of things that they claim make up the rape culture that I do not understand how they do. For example, the quote I cited from a page shared with me that stated how moron conservatives comparing non-heterosexual marriage to bestiality is rape culture. I agree that there is a rape culture but I still do not see why that should be used as proof of a rape culture as it has nothing to do with rape.
If I came off as dismissive in my intent to understand why others believed the way that I do and if other people were hurt by then then I am very sorry. I truly am. But some people do not learn just by sitting and absorbing. Some people learn by questioning things. Some people learn through debate.
I was trying to understand why others believed there is a rape culture. I now believe it as well. Somebody learning to ride a bike for the first time is going to fall a couple times. Does that mean you insult the person trying? Or do you help the person up and show them the right way?
Dan, stop trying justify your self and LET IT GO. Do your reading.
Yeah, but when they keep making themselves fall over on purpose again and again, it gets tiresome.
This is exactly what a number of people here are getting after you about. If it was someone I was teaching to ride a bike, like my own (hypothetical) child, of course I would help them up and give them a hand. Of course I wouldn’t insult them.
Now, some random person trying to learn to ride a bike? I would probably wince in sympathy when they fell, but I wouldn’t be immediately drafted into helping them learn. I would keep doing whatever it was I was doing before they showed up.
And here’s the important one: if that random person interrupted what I was doing, demanded that that I teach them to ride a bike, told me that they really want to know how to ride a bike I already know so why can’t I just take the time to show them, I would be seriously annoyed.
viiscaria: And just because one claims that someone is trying to make the argument about them, it doesn’t mean that the person is trying to make the argument about them.
And enough with this “intent is not magic” crap. I have never claimed or believed that just saying “that was not my intent” would solve everything. But the people throwing around the “intent is not magic” crap are coming off as saying that intent doesn’t matter. That someone who comes in to purposefully wants to hurt people and be an actual troll (like NWOslave) is no different than someone who doesn’t mean to hurt people and is sorry when any actions taken might hurt others.
I do not dismiss any pain. I would never do that. I have my own pain so I know the pain is real and I would never want anyone to dismiss the pain I go through so I would never dismiss the pain of others. I do not believe in the MRA belief that the way to solve your internal pain is to just lash out at others. But, I guess you just cannot see that for whatever reason. So I will leave you people. Bashing MRA seemed like fun, but with some of you it is just not worth it.
So, again. If I caused pain to anybody here with any of my words. I deeply apologize with all my heart and I hope you can just find it in you to forgive me.
Aw, you’ll be missed. If you ever make good on your leaving, that is.
I didn’t mean this to turn into a sort of fisk, but here it is.
dan:
You did suggest it. Did you mean to suggest it? I can’t say.
dan:
And by a stunning conincidence, this reaction that you can’t help (a rape-apologist phrasing right there) moves away from uncomfortable topics and makes the thread all about you.
Only when the person actually didn’t read it.
Which you did not.
dan:
And yet you evinced no understanding of this until it was pointed out twice. That says more about your level of awareness than a dismissive “of course” does.
And the repercussions are more important than whether 1/6 crosses some arbitrary numerical threshold for prevalence, or pervasiveness, or whether those are the same thing, or whatever. If you really recognized those wider effects, you would — you should — find that semantic argument a trivial side issue. If you seize on that as a reason to doubt the whole thing, it comes off like you’re looking for a reason to doubt the whole thing. Putting the best spin on that behavior that I possibly can, that’s not how “falsifiability” works. Nor the Socratic method.
dan:
It’s the first time you did it where we could see.
If you think we’re giving you grief, you should take your bullshit to Shakesville and see what kind of a reception you get. There are people at Manboobz willing to do 101.
Even I’m trying to be helpful, somewhat, pointing out things you’ve said that might be getting a negative reaction and why, to which your response is to take offense and possibly even to be offended.
Okay, you’re trying. And that’s good! But in that process, you say a lot of things that are disingenuous, derailing, entitled, and privileged. And you are saying those things in a space where certain persons on a regular basis roll up in here and talk about how women are all liars and accusations of rape are all false and also wouldn’t it be nice if prissy entitled fuck bitches gave men the sex they are entitled to?
You’re not the first person to come to a feminist space and demand that everyone drop the current discussion and explain a very basic principle of feminist theory. You’re not the first person to ask the same clueless questions over and over again. Even the specific questions you ask are ones we’ve all seen so many times we want to bang our heads against the wall.
For most of us, this kind of thing isn’t just an interesting debate topic or a learning exercise, so someone treating it as such is insensitive at best and downright dismissive at worst. If you need to debate to learn then fine, but we’re STILL not here to teach you, and treating us like we should be is entitled. We don’t take too kindly to entitlement in these parts