What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
LJ: Last bit for a while! If you keep explaining, and people keep getting it rong, maybe the problem is………..you. So maybe STOP explaining?
How the hell does a sub-culture have an element that is not part of mainstream culture? What do you even “define” as culture (no I’m not reading your blog or past posts, if you cannot explain it in 50 words or less, don’t bother).
Ithiliana: It is possible that someone could fail to explain something clearly multiple times. However, there are several things that I have said clearly and people still are getting it wrong. In that case, the problem is on them. (Like how some people have said that I think false rape accusations are deserving of equal time and concern as rape when I not only have said nothing coming close to this, I have specifically said that I do not agree with it at all)
I think it is obvious how a sub-culture could have a defining element that is not representative of the greater culture at large
I will go with this m-w dictionary definition as to what a culture is
“the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time ”
There are elements to Jewish Culture that are not representative of the greater culture as a whole.
No, it’s not on us if your explainations aren’t coming across. You’re trying to explain, so it’s your job to do that in an understandable manner.
As far as your stance on culture, you’re coming across as simple and irrevocably dense.
hellkell: If I say “Rape is much more serious and much more harmful than false accusations of rape” and then someone later says “You said that false accusations are much more serious than rape”, I think it is clear the latter person is the one at fault.
And yes, that happened right here on this thread.
Yes, I am using a simple definition of culture and applying it to explain how I could once believe that something was a strong aspect of a subculture while not being something that is not part of the culture as a whole.
Not sure how that makes me dense. I fear asking why because then some might say I am being “demanding”.
@hellkell:
But sometimes it’s just to stipulate definitions. Somebody linked this piece on sex-positivity and there it is rape culture to shave your legs (sorry to sound so cliché…), and now here in the thread it’s for example rape culture to make bad jokes about rape. Huge difference, so without definitions we don’t get very far.
Riiiight, and there’s a whole big internet out there to get your definitions. What most trolls want to do is play semantics.
Everyone on this thread apart from you is in agreement that something that effects 1 in 6 women directly — and surely has indirect repercussions on the way of life of all other women — is pervasive and endemic. Your unwillingness to apply the word “prevalent” to such a widespread cultural problem and to engage in the worst sort of petty wrangling over dictionary definitions that don’t even agree with your interpretation is not only pathetic, it’s a red-flagged indicator of your bias.
As for your butthurt at being called garbage, your obtuseness and stupidity, your relentlessly verbose mansplaining, your disingenuousness, your poor display of netiquette, and your gross insensitivity to the topic have all merited the way you have been treated on this thread, so if you are expecting apologies when you have spewed your misconceived logorrhoea for several days on end then you are sorely mistaken. Being a rape survivor I am normally predisposed to feeling sympathy towards rape victims but even if I had seen your reply to Bee about your having been coerced into sex, I can’t see any reason from your posts to alter a single word of my comment last night.
Perhaps it would be best for you to go away and think over the new ideas you claim to have assimilated (such as the feeling that your experience of being coerced for sex would be dismissed, which is a typical problem due to rape culture: people find ways to excuse rape into being non-rape), since they have far-reaching implications. Or perhaps you want to continue playing the “I can post 10 tedious comments in a row to prove I was actually right previously, even though I am sort of mealy-mouthed admitting that I was wrong” game, in which case I would reiterate my request that you kindly fuck off.
@Xanthe:
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000!
xanthe: “Everyone on this thread apart from you is in agreement that something that effects 1 in 6 women directly — and surely has indirect repercussions on the way of life of all other women — is pervasive and endemic.”
We have never used the words pervasive or endemic in this discussion until right now when you brought those words up.
“Your unwillingness to apply the word “prevalent” to such a widespread cultural problem and to engage in the worst sort of petty wrangling over dictionary definitions that don’t even agree with your interpretation is not only pathetic, it’s a red-flagged indicator of your bias.”
My unwillingness to apply the word prevalent only has to do with the fact that I do not think that something that is 1 out of 6 is rightly described as prevalent. Nothing more and nothing yes. I, in a very clear way, said that my claim that pervasive is not an appropriate description should in no way detract from the seriousness of the crime or be considered dismissive in any way towards the fact that rape happens way too much in our country. I said that multiple times because I knew people would get stuck up on the semantic game and just ignore my actual feelings on how 1 in 6 is a grotesquely high number of rapes. (Of course, 1 rape is 1 rape too many)
“Or perhaps you want to continue playing the “I can post 10 tedious comments in a row to prove I was actually right previously, even though I am sort of mealy-mouthed admitting that I was wrong” game, in which case I would reiterate my request that you kindly fuck off.”
In reading the rules of the forum, David stated that he has no problem with people posting multiple posts in a row if those posts are to respond to other posts directed at them.
And where did I say I was “actually right” previously? I have already admitted I was wrong, that a rape culture does exist, and what now makes me believe it to be so.
And I didn’t ask for your sympathy for anything that happened to me nor have I asked anyone for an apology.
I have offered my own apologies to anyone who may have been triggered by anything I may have said to trigger them. I have asked for people to perhaps help me explain what I might have done that was triggering so that I do not repeat the same mistake again.
I have never been disingenuous on this thread. You are confusing me with someone else. I have been honest form day one. From the initial feelings about the issue to my feelings about it now. It is others who have been disingenuous and violated the rules set forth by David by constantly misrepresenting the words that I say as being others.
And yes, we are discussing semantics here when we should be discussing how to best reduce rapes.
But, we now both agree that there is a rape culture.
We both agree that 1 in 6 is an abhorrent number of rapes taking place.
We just don’t agree on the use of one particular word.
Do you really want someone who agrees with you on the first two to fuck off just because you have a disagreement over the third? Seriously?
Oh, FUCK OFF with your semantic games, already.
@LJ4: And yes, we are discussing semantics here when we should be discussing how to best reduce rapes.
What do you mean we, white man? YOU are the one nitpicking words: “We have never used the words pervasive or endemic in this discussion until right now when you brought those words up.
What the fuck does that even matter–WE (the manboobz group) all agree on the existence of the rape culture, its pervasiveness, prevalence, impact on women and men.
YOU are the one quibbling over words.
And if YOU think that any of us are going to spend time with you “discussing how to best reduce rapes,” you are way into delusionaltroll land. This blog exists to mock misogyny (and YOU are showing all the behaviors of a misogynist).
It is not a blog dedicated to activist, legal, or judicial ways to change the rape culture and reduce rapes.
So what entitlement makes you think you get to come in and make that the subject?
Because you don’t, and you’re just digging the hole you are in deeper and deeper with the “concern trolling”: “omg there is this terrible problem with rape and you being mean to me about what words I use is stopping us from reducing rape therefore (IMPLIED SUBTEXT): you are all to blame for rape!”
OK, Dan, why come here (to a blog that MOCKS misogyny)? If you’re more serious minded, I would think NSWATM would be more to your liking. What’s the matter, don’t think they’ll take your shit there?
hellkell: I came to a blog that mocks misogyny because I agree with mocking misogyny.
@LJ 4: Here you go! get out there and start working, hup hup hup
http://www.menendingrape.org/
http://stopviolence.com/domviol/menagainst.htm
Posting now to avoid moderation!
More for our friendly Troll LJ who yearns to reduce rape:
https://sites.google.com/site/amensproject/men-s-issues/rape-sexual-assault
http://vawnet.org/print-document.php?doc_id=1045&find_type=web_desc_NRCDV
And finally
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
go to town!
ithiliana: “Because you don’t, and you’re just digging the hole you are in deeper and deeper with the “concern trolling”: “omg there is this terrible problem with rape and you being mean to me about what words I use is stopping us from reducing rape therefore (IMPLIED SUBTEXT): you are all to blame for rape!””
There you go again, putting words into others peoples mouths.
Never have I, and never would I, suggest that because someone is an asshole that it means they are to blame for rape.
And the whole “concern trolling” thing is a crock of shit. And another false label thrown by you and others who cannot accept that someone might be a feminist and agree with you on MOST issues but perhaps not on others. Because once you believe that person disagrees with you on one thing, they must disagree with you on all things and OMG TROLLZ.
And I really should have just walked away posts ago. But I have recently discovered that my personality flaw of not ever being able to let things drop and always needing to defend myself against false claims about me stems directly from the false accusation.
And when people like yourself insist on throwing false labels on me, it makes it worse and makes me feel the need to defend myself more and more. Because I just cannot accept the idea of leaving a false word about me just hanging out there because someone else might read it and believe it.
Of course, had I gone away when I should have… I also would not have heard the really good logical argument that changed my mind.
Wow, I cannot believe just how much defensive TL;DR Dan just spewed.
Here’s another link that’s not even about rape culture and doesn’t use the work prevalent! Maybe it will be easier to understand for that reason. Take what is being described and apply it to your behavior here, for these words of wisdom can be adapted to many situations, and realise why everyone else thinks you’re not only being a jerk, but also making kind of a fool of yourself,
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-when-accused-of-racism/
(Everyone else – wanna bet he’s going to come back with “but I’m not a racist! when did I say anything racist? what does that post have to do with what I did here?” but much longer and more tedious to read?)
“And when people like yourself insist on throwing false labels on me, it makes it worse and makes me feel the need to defend myself more and more. Because I just cannot accept the idea of leaving a false word about me just hanging out there because someone else might read it and believe it. ”
(Points at the link I just posted)
Seriously, go read it. This is called centering yourself, it’s very bad netiquette, and it will invariably make most people in social justice focused spaces tell you to fuck off, regardless of the specific context.
@LJ: *shrugs* Your choice. But if the label is truly false, and if nobody here knows your real name, then why does it even matter? As a lot of feminist blogs say, if it’s not about you, then don’t claim it, and try to defend it. Instead, go look at some of the sites about how men are working to end rape and try to learn something from them!
Because that would be a good thing, if that is in fact your goal.
Cassandra: Fortunately for me I am smart enough to know that you were not calling me racist by linking to that page and that you were using such a page as an analogy.
I cannot help that I get very defensive when people make false claims about what I have said. Maybe it is a character flaw but it is one that stems from my false accusation so many years ago.
TL;DR is a copout.
In regards to the link. When someone accused me of triggering people, I did not go all crazy. I stayed calm (step 1). I took it seriously (step 2) (i.e. I did not deny that what I had done was triggering, I just said that it was not my intent and that I wished to learn how to avoid such triggering in the future). I didn’t make it about me, I tried to make it into a discussion on how one might better avoid triggering in the future. And it rolled off my back.
But I have to disagree with point 3 made there in some instances. If someone says flat out that I am a misogynist, how is one supposed to not make it about them ESPECIALLY when that person rejects misogyny.
People don’t call others misogynists because they are being all nice and flowery. They are doing it as an attack against someone else. Are you suggesting that I should just let people get away with calling me whatever they want? I am sorry, but that is just letting the bully win. I guess bully is a more apt description of ithiliana than troll. And I have had enough with bullies. I am sick and tired of bullies. We make far too many excuses for bullying in this society already. And those of you siding with ithiliania are just enabling the bullying to continue.
MOAR Links for LJ:
http://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/reporting-rape-culture-media-men-sexuality/
http://www1.umn.edu/aurora/pdf/MensPledge.pdf
Dude, if you’re here to mock misogyny, mock on. Stop making this all about free therapy or whatever for you.
ithiliana: It would be very easy to find out my name using my username. It connects to my blog. Other information is there that identifies who I am.
I didn’t make anything about me. YOU made it about me. YOU decided to take my words, not at face value, but what YOU thought they might mean because I might be one of those other people. YOU never gave me a chance. YOU just assumed I was some disgusting troll with nothing good to offer the world of mocking misogyny, or feminism, or anything else. You decided to take a lie and just splatter me with it. And because of my past, yes, I get defensive.
You say I am a concern troll. Well, I am not going to apologize for being concerned on how society treats women as a whole. You don’t believe I am sincere, well go fuck yourself. I do it for me, and for the wife that I love and for my son who I hope will grow up one day in a world where men and women are treated as equals.
hellkell: I did, briefly, over in the newer PUA thread. (Couldn’t understand the logic of criticizing a woman for posting pictures that make her “look good” when part of being a PUA is altering your appearance to look like less of a shlub)