What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
@LJ4: Some survivors of rape or attempted rape say you are hurting them.
You deny it: What I am doing here, right now, is reaching an agreement with them. How on earth is that hurting other people?
Do you realize HOW your refusal to accept what they say differs from our acceptance of what you say? Do you realize how viciously unredeemably garbage nasty your stance is?
You are hurting people. You refuse to believe it. Rape Troll.
PS TO LJ: I see you’ve taken time off before commenting again which is a good idea.
In the context of your claims of being treated vilely on this thread, I would like to offer you a link about the harassment women bloggers receive routinely–and not just feminist bloggers (googl Kathy Sierra):
http://www.musingsandmoans.com/2011/11/women-bloggers-and-online-writers.html
THAT is the context against which I judge “vile” behavior, and why I and others here are laughing evilly at your claim of being treated so so so so so vewy badly!
Now he sees the light and thinks there’s a rape culture. That’s awesome, Dan, but you’re still a royal asshole.
As Ithiliana and others have said, you have no idea how many men come into feminist spaces and demand to be educated and make everything about them. It’s really tiresome to deal with some dude with sub-par Google skills and a giant sense of entitlement.
And when people tell you to stop triggering them? Fucking stop triggering them.
dan:
When you say things like that on a feminist blog, it sounds kind of sexist, not because feminists or women are incapable of logic and reason or inherently emotional but because misogynists say things like that, and you don’t have a really solid track record of non-misogyny.
ObNSWATM: The emotional stunting of men is the advanced class.
@LJ4: Another link about rape culture–this time in the US military.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military
Bee: How can you say I did not acknowledge stories of people who described what happened to them? There are several examples of me acknowledging their stories and showing sympathy for what happened to them?
PFKAElizabeth: I wasn’t “dismissive” of every piece of evidence I gave. Holy crap. I clearly said, on multiple occasions, that I would go look at the information that was given to me while continuing to discuss this subject.
Yes, I dismissed one or two things on some of the links. I didn’t see (and still do not see) how the morons trying to equate non-heterosexual unions with bestiality would be contributive to the rape culture. (Of course, if someone provides me with a logical argument as to why I am wrong on that, I could change my opinion on that as well). I also cannot see how the word prevalent can be used to describe something that is 1 out of 6. I am being called a horrible and terrible person for that EVEN THOUGH I am saying that 1 out of 6 (literally millions of people in this country) is far too much and that my refusal to accept the word prevalent to describe 1 out of 6 is not me saying in any way, shape, or form that the number is not huge.
But had I just stopped posting and strictly read what was given to me as reference material, I might not have reached the conclusion that I did. Only through my discussion here was my mind changed via a very logically sound argument.
I may very well still might disagree with certain posters on what contributes to the rape culture. Some of those disagreements might be swayed if other logical arguments are provided to contradict my own. I am open to that.
Never in my life have I seen anybody willing to learn and open to the arguments of other people who disagree with him because he might actually be wrong and is willing to accept that be called not open minded until this thread.
Cassandra:
I already said that
A) it was not my intent to hurt anyone
B) if I did that I was sorry
Incredible….
Ithiliana: “Some survivors of rape or attempted rape say you are hurting them.”
And when that was ACTUALLY said to me, I said it was not my intent and that I apologize if anything that I said or did actually hurt them.
Perhaps some of the survivors of rape could show me what I actually said (or how I said it) that was hurtful so I can avoid saying anything that might trigger their pain in the future.
And, again, I am not making “demands”. I am just making a request (and I think a reasonable one at that).
Ithiliana: “First of all, I challenge the notion that anonymous person on the internet calling you a troll and saying snarky and even nasty things about what you say is treating you like garbage: if that’s your definition of horrible, bad treatment, then man, you are privileged.”
Anonymous people can treat others like garbage. In fact, I have found that the anonymity on the net enables more people to treat others like garbage.
“Second of all, you have done MUCH more than “fail to agree” there is a rape culture. I’m too lazy to link back to all the crap you spewed (especially the nitpicking about 1 in 6 being “prevalent” or not), but it is not just lack of agreement.”
It is a lack of agreement. I was not agreeing with the concept. Now I do, because of a logical argument made to me that refuted the comments I was stating.
“Third of all, while you claim to just be this one lone individual being treated like garbage, the fact that you don’t realize that EVERY feminist blog, every women’s space, where women are talking about rape ALWAYS has an unknown troll (NOT a member of the community, a stranger) blowing in to demand that false rape accusations OR rape of men (by WOMEN not by men) be made the central focus of the discussion.”
I never once demanded that false accusations be made the central focus of the discussion. I never once demanded the rape of men be made the central focus of the discussion.
And I have been posting on the manboobz forums for a few months. I did not think I would be labelled a “stranger”. But I guess not everyone here posts over there.
But here you are making a definition of what a troll is, but I do not meet your own definition.
“For example: back to my question: how much do you know about the Innocence Project and what are you doing to help them?”
I am very familiar with (and admire) the innocence project and I have previously posted links to their work around the internet. I could (and should) do much more.
Ithiliana: I would also point out that the only name calling I ever did was to liken your behavior to what internet trolls do and that was only when you repeatedly insisted on misrepresenting what I said (about how you claimed I viewed rape and false accusations as equal when I do not and never said or implied anything of the sort)
I read your link to musing and moans. The behavior described there is horrible. Yes, much worse that what you did to me here. Do you (and others who for some reason claim I am a troll) think that I was really acting in a way that was described in that musing and moans post?
zhinxy:
I never said it was required to give me the benefit of the doubt.
I can also understand why someone who is passionate about eliminating the rape culture might be leery of someone who doubts its existence in the first place, especially because there are so many actual MRA who deny it because it harms their own misogynistic causes.
However, you responded to my posts with links that you felt might help persuade me that I was incorrect. Ithiliania responded to me by misrepresenting what I was saying, labeling me as a rape apologist and as much of a feminist as Sarah Palin, etc.
Can you see why I might view Ithiliana’s behavior as trollish considering this has been my only interaction so far?
I can only hope that perhaps Ithiliana is only acting that way because of “jumping the gun” and perhaps I jumped the gun as well. Perhaps some day in the future, after continued discussions on the other issues brought up on this site, we will determine that we both just misunderstood each other with a bad first impression.
I am open to that possibility. And if Ithiliana is as well, then I will admit I was wrong there too .
ithiliana:
I already knew, prior to this discussion, that there was a rape culture in the military. It is a shame that anybody who risks his/her life to protect us would ever have to suffer such injustices.
hershele:
I do not have a solid track record of non-misogyny? Are you kidding me? Wow.
I also must suggest that you go educate yourself about my views on womens rights before jumping to that awful conclusion.
http://blog.lj4a.com/category/women/
http://blog.lj4a.com/category/national-issues/abortion/
http://blog.lj4a.com/category/rape/ (obvious trigger warning, it contains the story of the ex-girlfriend of a friend of mine who was raped)
hellkell: “As Ithiliana and others have said, you have no idea how many men come into feminist spaces and demand to be educated and make everything about them. It’s really tiresome to deal with some dude with sub-par Google skills and a giant sense of entitlement.”
My search fu is strong. I just could not find an argument that won me over on google as it didn’t exist until it was posted on this thread.
I have no sense of entitlement. The idea that I was “demanding” anything was manufactured. That I request information doesn’t mean I assume I am entitled to it. It just means I would LIKE to have it. There is a difference.
I am sure the number of men who infiltrate feminist blogs with their MRA garbage is huge.
“And when people tell you to stop triggering them? Fucking stop triggering them.”
As I said previously, it was never my intent to hurt anybody with anything I was doing. Perhaps if people would tell me what I was doing that was the trigger, I could avoid doing that in the future.
Here are posts in this thread that mention the word trigger (asterisks next to the thread means it was after I changed my mind on the existence of the rape culture)
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-9/#comment-97162 (Viscaria stated that I may have triggered people, but never mentioned how) *
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-8/#comment-97120 * (didn’t say that I actually triggered, but that people like me are what triggers her)
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-7/#comment-96612 (I actually didn’t get to the part where ithiliana mentioned triggers because the denial of false accusations being a “real issue” and continued claims of me trolling caused me to just not want to read on. Of course, I do not believe I was doing the things ithiliana claimed I was as well, so it is hard to stop doing things that I am not doing)
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-6/#comments three mentions of the word trigger here, all warnings, none in reference to my behavior
So nobody told me to stop triggering them. Two mentioned it after the fact. One mentioned it in a post that I didn’t finish reading because I had no reason to continue reading it since. And three other mentions were not even about me.
And trust me, between the three things in my life (two of which discussed her) that can trigger things for me, triggering other people is the LAST thing I want to do.
@SaruGoku:
I almost said something last night, about how if this were my blog he would be out on his ass, but since it’s obviously not my blog I didn’t want to be rude to David so I let it be. I’m not a rape survivor, and I found that video (played for comedy) deeply upsetting. I can’t imagine what an actual survivor would have felt.
Dan, just so you know, it’s pretty poor netiquette to dominate the comments like that. Writing a blog post and linking to it may have been better.
/Queen of the Internet
OK, well, I didn’t mind discussing rape culture with you, Dan, but after all this time I am finding all this self-centered cluelessness a little exhausting. Again, I’m glad you found one argument here that you consider valid. Thanks for the introduction to Roger Canaff; he seems pretty fucking awesome. And good luck in your road to good mental health after trauma.
pecunium: How on earth did I miss this?
“You said you think false accusations: which are far less rare; as you admit, than rape, are more damaging than something you say happens to one in six women. ”
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NO NO NO NO NO. I have never ever ever said that. I would never ever ever say that. EVER. PERIOD.
I have said the EXACT opposite.
“I have two active lovers, several inactive lovers and five sisters ans several female friends I am close to, let’s say that’s a total of 18 [which is a low number], you think three of them being raped is less of a problem than 1/5th of 100 male acquaintances being raped, yet you think the latter is more damaging to society. Even with that you have the gall to be offended at being called a rape apologist.”
When people call me a rape apologist based on false information, then yes I will be offended!
Here is a link to my words directly representing your false claims about my beliefs: http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-7/#comment-96625
And just in case you choose to not link back, here are my words.
“I NEVER, I repeat NEVER… I repeat again NEVER said that I am equally concerned about rape and false accusations of rape. That is YOUR strawman argument that you keep repeating over and over again (ad nauseum) and it is absolutely untrue.
Rape is a much more dangerous and much more frequent crime than the crime of making a false accusation of rape. The crime of rape deserves much more attention and much more of an effort in prevention than the crime of a false accusation of rape. That I believe the crime of false accusation of rape deserves more attention than it currently gets in no way makes me a rape apologist. “
Yes you were.
Your own experience. Obviously not an example of rape culture because apparently some officers disagreed with another officer about that officer’s line of questioning.
Only possible way for the culture to exist is to have it have purpose? Since when?
Oh? And if it is a major bestseller and/or major tv show it does not prove anything either?
So the only way to have a rape culture is if the vast majority of people blame the victim which is what they do now? And was pointed out to you many many many times prior to this post.
You say you do not believe it because a “supermajority” has to accept what someone points out is in fact not only accepted but being taught to children in school. That is dismissing not only someone’s real experience but the evidence that it is being accepted and being taught.
TV IS AMERICAN CULTURE. It is one of our biggest exports to the world. And Trueblood has been a MASSIVE success as a show-it is the very essence of culture and you rejected it. Dismissed it out of hand and then refused to read the incredibly salient points being raised by Bee on the issue of this MASSIVELY SUCCESSFUL tv show having multiple examples of rape culture.
—————-
And even though more then one person pointed out the same argument that you claimed was so “persuasive” you still refused to accept the fact that there is a culture that accepts and/or even condones rape.
Your claim that rape is not prevalent was at best, tone deaf, and at worst proof positive of everything that we have said about you. You are a troll and not a person who is open minded.
Go away.
pecunium: “It’s interesting, all things considered, that you chose not to address anything else I said.
How about my telling you that the rapes were an ongoing thing (because I was too young and inexperienced to be able to stop them)?”
I have missed several posts because of the number of posts I am responding to. I am very sorry that you had to deal with such things once, let alone over a long time.
I was also too young to stop some of what happened to me previously. I wonder how much of my life was impacted by what happened to me as a young child as well. (still not ready to talk about it beyond that)
dan:
I like how he complains about it without actually disagreeing with it.
Dan, nothing you linked to provides evidence of a solid track record of non-misogyny on Manboobz.
LJ4: Before you yet again declare that “it is not/was not my intent,” please read the following post:
http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
And stop trollsplaining to us that it was not your intent.
LJ: you claim to have now already known there is a rape culture in the military.
But you never said that in any of the discussions where you were all “I don’t believe in a rape culture.”
You insisted on not believing in any rape culture–as if what? The military is somehow on another planet.
I call: false dealing, two-faced lying, and blatant hypocrisy as well as Trollishness.
Hershele: Did you say here? I thought I might give you expanded examples of arguments I have made previously so you could get to know me and what I actually believe in and not the limited exposure you may have had with me on manboobz and the forums.
Perhaps a few examples from the forums?
http://manboobz.forummotion.com/t430-roosh-v-rape-apologist-tw-all-over-the-place#12719
http://manboobz.forummotion.com/t257-here-is-a-topic-the-mra-will-run-with#8499 (clear example of me showing that I embrace the idea that a woman has autonomy over her body)
And my “wow” was a statement of disbelief that you said it…. it should be taken that I disagree with you.
To everybody here EXCEPT LJ4: Is anybody gonna go read all the links he provides? I know I’m not! Becuz, clearly, evil FEMYNYST MEDUSA TROLL!!
*crickets chirp*
ithiliana: I do not know how else I can explain that I don’t wish to cause harm or pain to people by seeking to understand why anything I said would be taken as hurtful as others so I can make sure to not duplicate the pain at some later date.
If I am ignorant that actions x, y and z cause pain, how am I supposed to prevent myself from causing pain in the future?
And yes, I had explained previously that I accepted that certain subcultures had rape cultures. The military being one. The Catholic Church hierarchy (the one I mentioned earlier in this thread) being another. That a sub-culture may have a rape culture does not require it to be on another planet. I have since moved on to accept the broader overlapping rape culture.
Your call is, again, wrong. Just as your explanation of false equivalency. Just as was your misrepresentation of my arguments. Wrong, wrong wrong.