What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
The irony is that I’ve talked a man I was close to through the aftermath of dealing with a rape before, and I’d be willing to do so again for most of the regulars on this board. But not for someone who is himself supportive of some rape myths, who expects everyone else to stop what they’re doing to teach him things that he could learn from Professor Google, and who is very quick to complain about others being unkind to him while being utterly unresponsive to the fact that others have pointed out that he has been upsetting them for some time now.
The last part is kind of the final straw as far as my own personal willingness to reach out is concerned.
peniculum: I have said, MANY TIMES, on this thread that the frequency of false accusations is MUCH LESS than the frequency of rape. How many more times do I have to say it for people to actually read it?
Viscaria: Yes, I think you are right about taking the rest of the night off. Though, I had described it as rape fairly shortly afterwards. So I knew what it was. I just didn’t connect the reason I didn’t report it with my past experiences or with an overlying problem in our culture.
Cassandra: I had already said that I had gone to professor google and had not gotten the answers I would need to convince me I was wrong. Only by coming here and discussing the issue with other posters here was I convinced that I was wrong.
Sometimes google aint good enough and sometimes different people need to learn different things in different ways. Imagine that! People are different.
Good night.
That is not what happened here. This is what happened:
Person A disagrees with topic.
After Persons B, C, D, E, F, H, I, and J all provide dozens of examples, studies, media stories, and other things, Person A still refuses to agree. While claiming something that is quite literally not true (that Person A is open minded.)
Persons B, C, D, E, F, H, I and J point out that Person A is being a rude person and flatly call Person A out for the behavior. Person A, sensing Person A is losing the audience and attention, suddenly agrees with the topic.
You were not treated like garbage-you were treated incredibly well even after being completely, and repeatedly dismissive of every bit of evidence you were given. Even the people who were pointing out that you were trolling (and that is certainly what you were doing) still were giving you information. Your sudden claim to be agreeing with the concept of the rape culture is suspect because it has no sincerity to it and because it was becoming clear no one was going to talk to you about it again.
Cosigned, Elizabeth.
I’ll just leave this here
When you say 1 in 6 people are not a prevalent number in society, you are a horrible person.
So, a commenter comes here, says he doesn’t believe in rape culture, gets a bunch of descriptions, links, definitions, and sources that he still doesn’t believe. Finally gets one answer that he deems valid. Says he was a victim of a false rape accusation and wants to talk about that. Says he was a victim of rape and wants to talk about that. Demands explanations as to why people are calling him a troll. Along the way, people sympathize with him, and share their own rape stories, which he doesn’t really acknowledge. Says,
I dunno. It’s awesome that you’ve gotten one answer that you feel is valid and can now kind of acknowledge maybe that rape culture exists. It’s awesome that one rape victim on this thread feels listened to. But at least know that you’ve made this about Dan and discounted everyone else’s story in service of your own narrative.
Hey, if one man learned something new who cares how many women got hurt along the way, right? We are but props in his personal vision quest.
ljdon: peniculum: I have said, MANY TIMES, on this thread that the frequency of false accusations is MUCH LESS than the frequency of rape. How many more times do I have to say it for people to actually read it?
I read it. I also looked at the context of the rest of your statements. How many times do we have to tell you about that before you read it.
You said you think false accusations: which are far less rare; as you admit, than rape, are more damaging than something you say happens to one in six women. I have two active lovers, several inactive lovers and five sisters ans several female friends I am close to, let’s say that’s a total of 18 [which is a low number], you think three of them being raped is less of a problem than 1/5th of 100 male acquaintances being raped, yet you think the latter is more damaging to society. Even with that you have the gall to be offended at being called a rape apologist.
It’s interesting, all things considered, that you chose not to address anything else I said.
How about my telling you that the rapes were an ongoing thing (because I was too young and inexperienced to be able to stop them)?
All this talk about female rape victims………….Have you no compassion for these poor helpless dudents who fall victim to the insidious Bro Rape culture???
[video removed by DF]
So, apparently you’re bored and lonely, Frenchy, but no. Linking to videos of comedic representations of rape is just fucking dumb, dude.
Oh Bee: The thing about us menz is that we are actually able to not take ourselves(and are ishoos) so damn srsly. Lighten up, will ya! 😛
Says the guy who’s moping in the other thread about how the other trolls are getting all the attention.
I have been reading MRM sites long enough to know exactly what jovial fucking bastards you all are. I’m just saying that maybe if you really want your mommy to pay attention to you, you should try doing something nice to get positive attention and stop hitting your sister in the hopes that someone will yell at you.
Stephanie [email protected]:
“Holy shit.
“Rape Game: Used for when a girl is acting either difficult or prudish. Drag her to your place and tell her you’re going to have her way with her and there’s nothing she can do about it. Throw her on the bad, rip off her clothing, and do what you promised while ignoring her fake protests. With some girls you need to simulate rape conditions to get the bang, but be careful because rape game correlates highly to unprotected sex. The last thing a girl cares about when getting fantasy raped is using a condom. Also, you might want to use a fake name and safe house when running rape game in a Western country.”
– http://www.rooshv.com/16-different-types-of-game”
Ugh! What an out and out vile human being! He knows damn well this is rape! And then the comment about the fake name and the safe house…I have no words.
First off, thank you, everyone, for your empathy and kindness. It really means a lot to me, especially because I know that should I have reported it, I more than likely wouldn’t have received anything similar to that. I don’t know if I consider him dangerous – the way things happened with me were a little weird, and his shock and pain about the situation seemed real. Of course, that could all be an act. I’m not sure what I want to do – I think I just want to put it behind me and let it go.
Secondly, I am sincerely sorry to everyone else that has experienced something similar – there were a lot of stories about non-violent rape. Coercion still counts as rape. If your “no” has no meaning to someone, then how can your “yes” have meaning? You weren’t allowed to say you didn’t want something, so how valid is the “consent”? It’s not.
Rape and sexual assault are huge problems, for both men and women. Women are disproportionately affected, which is part of the reason that male victims of sexual assault and rape are not taken seriously (which is absolutely a fucking tragedy and should be corrected). Women are seen as flighty, emotional, irrational, and unsure of what they want, which undermines her testimony when she says something happened that she didn’t want. Men are seen as always wanting sex, so how could he have NOT wanted it (especially if his attacker was a form of socially-acceptable “attractive”)? These are tiny pieces of rape culture that all fit together to form a strange, pervasive, almost invisible veil over how we perceive rape.
I can’t think of anyone that is in FAVOR of rape – most people would say it’s horrifying and terrible, BUT… [some people deserve it, zie should have been more careful, what was zie thinking, etc. etc.]. Those hedgings are the little pieces of rape culture that people don’t think about or extend through. What happens when YOU are the one who “should have been more careful”? But it won’t be you, because you’re more careful and you’d only be with people you trust, and your friends aren’t like that.
That’s rape culture, and that’s why it’s so damaging.
noname: Rape survivors have a fucking right to take rape seriously. You joking about a subject that doesn’t affect you (presumably) is nowhere near “not taking yourself seriously”. Make jokes about rape in a thread where people discuss, beside other things, their experience of rape makes you a terrible person.
lj4a: You haven’t been treated like garbage. You have been provided with a impressive number of links and the worst you’ve been called is troll. This is hardly a false accusation, given the way you’ve been holding to a distorted meaning of the world prevalent. It’s definition isn’t similar to majority and this is clearly not the in this meaning it is being used. It is synonym to “widespread”, which fit the 1 in 6 stat.
Dan:
Try thinking of it as a complex of threats designed to control us. Rapists are a very small proportion of the male population but the threat that they represent goes far beyond their victims. We are constantly being reminded of the threat they pose to us and that sows the seed of distrust against any man who we don’t know extremely well (who, ironically actually pose the greatest threat). We don’t have to remind ourselves to be wary of men, after a while it becomes second nature and we spend our lives tied up in knots trying to follow all the well meant advice that restricts our lives. It’s also made very clear to us that men can’t really be held responsible for their sexual behaviour, that if we “encourage” them in any way then the fault is ours and we’re expected to take responsibility for their sexuality as well as our own.
“Don’t go out alone after dark because you’ll get raped.”
“Don’t go out dressed like that, you’ll give the guys the wrong impression.”
“Don’t go jogging with earphones on.”
“Why were you alone with him?”
“Why did you open the door?”
“You were too trusting.”
“You were asking for it.”
“The only way to be safe is to carry a gun.”
“You left your bedroom window open, you should have been more careful.”
All of this is designed to shift the blame from the rapist to the victim. It may sound like well meant, genuinely concerned advice and often comes most strongly from the people we love and trust but the people who tell us these things are as embroiled in these ideas as we are and, with the best of intentions, they hobble us while trying to keep us safe.
All of this crap seriously effects the way most women live and think about their actions. Put all these things together, the threat itself and the hundreds of ways it’s reinforced every day and you have a rape culture.
And in case you were wondering all the comments mentioned above were either said me personally, friends or someone I met in the course of my work.
Nom:
That vid was an arsehole move and I hope Dave bans you for it.
monsieur noname – Here are Me and Ami (AND TRISH!) Joking our asses off about Rape.
http://ami-rants.blogspot.com/2011/05/justice-avengers-of-cat-doom-ami-trish.html
http://ami-rants.blogspot.com/2011/07/ami-trish-and-zhinxy-snarkle-rape.html
Hmmmm… seems like there might differences here, though, between the jokes women tell about rape, and the jokes women so very humorlessly think aren’t funny. And no, the difference is not “women are doing it” – Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I know, blah blah blah etc Yawn.
@Bee: oh, I’m totally not saying people here who WANT to talk about the subject for any of multiple reasons shouldn’t.
But LJ4 ought to realize that he does not have any right to expect or demand anything of people, especially at a site he’s so new at he doesn’t know who the regulars are, and that at some point, the demand for education that is never met is a recognized troll/despicable act, well known in any internet spaces that are involved in social justice.
Sorry, I was tired, I meant to say 1/5 of one of my male acquaintance being falsely accused of rape.
SaruGoku: I agree, or I hope he, at least, get put him in moderation (David doesn’t seem to actually ban a lot of people anyway) so that he can’t do this kind of things again.
@LJ4: What happened to you was rape. I am sorry that you suffered not only the original assault, but the doubts after. As someone else upthread said, that is part of rape culture.
* * *
HOWEVER, you have done much more than fail to agree there is a rape culture: You ask me and others: Why do you just assume that everyone who does not agree that there is a rape culture is a horrible person that must be treated like garbage?
First of all, I challenge the notion that anonymous person on the internet calling you a troll and saying snarky and even nasty things about what you say is treating you like garbage: if that’s your definition of horrible, bad treatment, then man, you are privileged.
Second of all, you have done MUCH more than “fail to agree” there is a rape culture. I’m too lazy to link back to all the crap you spewed (especially the nitpicking about 1 in 6 being “prevalent” or not), but it is not just lack of agreement.
Third of all, while you claim to just be this one lone individual being treated like garbage, the fact that you don’t realize that EVERY feminist blog, every women’s space, where women are talking about rape ALWAYS has an unknown troll (NOT a member of the community, a stranger) blowing in to demand that false rape accusations OR rape of men (by WOMEN not by men) be made the central focus of the discussion. I know you think you should have the privilege of being taken solely on your own merits and not because your pattern of behavior is indicative of male privilege and rape apologism (i.e. MANYMANY men have said the same thing in mostly the same way), but you know, sucks doesn’t it? That’s how life works, and if you come to a place where you’re not known and behave in ways that are just like the assholish troll ways of others (DESPITE your intention–intention doesn’t count, impact does), then this sort of thing will happen. IF you in fact are honest in your desire to learn, and IF in fact you are now willing to be convinced, THEN you’ll shut up, read more, learn more, and maybe, oh, I don’t know, do something.
For example: back to my question: how much do you know about the Innocence Project and what are you doing to help them?
Seconding Ithiliana here, on all of it, even though I’m “one of the good ones” on your list, LJ4 – I gave you a lot of benefit of the doubt, but it wasn’t required of me, by a long shot, and the reactions of the people here were understandable considering your statements. Ithiliana is very far from the trolling or persecuting type, yes, believe me, even in the case of you.