What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
He’s entertaining in his way, but I think I reached my exclamation point limit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, though, if he’s ever up for someone to make a documentary about him, I would watch it, probably.
I just sincerely hope he takes my offer of a long extended debate on my turf. I really, truly want to see the long form serious debate Meller.
Also, ithiliana being a troll is lulzalicious.
Viscaria: I think it’s pretty clear we’re on the same side of this one; I was expanding on what you said, not correcting it.
@Stephanie: So, the moment i see a logical argument towards the idea that a rape culture exists you are now going to side with ithiliana that I am being trollish? Seriously?
@ithiliana I have never distorted the words of anyone on here yet you consistently did that to me. Despite the fact that you acted in a vile matter towards me I actually was taking the time to look at the links you provided in hopes to understand what is being said and what is meant by the idea of a rape culture. How exactly does that fit the definition of ME being a troll?
Cassandra: Yes, 1 in 6 does not statistically count as prevalent. But again, as I have said repeatedly, that I reject the idea of 1 in 6 of ANYTHING qualifies as “prevalent” doesn’t mean that I don’t think that 1 in 6 women being raped is abhorrent and far too many. I do not know how many times I can restate that in a manner to which people might understand. 1 in 6 rapes is A LOT. It is an enormous number of rapes. It is a shit load of rapes. It is a horrifying number. If the prevailing number of people (5 in 6 or 3 in 4) are not raped, then NOT being raped is prevalent. You cannot say that being raped and not being raped is prevalent. It makes no sense. But again, just because something is not prevalent does not mean anything other than it is not prevalent. I can repeat this over and over and over again. Not sure what I need to say to explain it in any other way.
Bee: Does the fact that I said Kyrie made a very logical argument towards the existence of a rape culture not mean anything? Doesn’t that mean that I AM open to the idea and that i AM open to being proven wrong if I really am wrong? Or are you just also saying now that I am just a troll? i
zhinxy: From moment one ithiliana misrepresented my words, assumed words were there that did not exist, and treated me in a vile way. If that isn’t the behavior of an internet troll, I do not know what is.
@lj4adotcomdan
actually, what I agreed with is that I find it annoying that you’re pretty much demanding to be educated.
THAT is whats getting annoying. I’m pulling up links for you, going through my bookmarks, because you’re too lazy to do your own homework and educate yourself. And this is after I already redirected you to two awesome books about rape culture that I told you to read first.
I don’t view it that way. But regardless, I’ve been extending you the benefit of the doubt. Honestly. I hope you review the links I gave you, and especially recommend taking the time to watch the mises.org lecture on youtube.
Also, think about this – When people describe a “culture of materialism” or a “culture of fear” or descriptions of “culture” that do not relate to issues of gender and/or race, I note that people are much less resistant to the idea, whether or not they agree.
They rarely get UP IN ARMS about how THEY know plenty of people who don’t care how new their tv is, and really, “culture of materialism?!” look how old their shoes are!.
They rarely talk about how the nightly news in THEIR town is fine, and nobody’s worried about terrorists or pedophiles on the streets or razor blades in the candy! Now… Yes, these things may still NOT BE TRUE. I do question the extent of actual materialism and mindless consumerism in the American culture, and what it all means, for example. But it doesn’t cause screaming THAT’S NOT TRUE fights the way describing “a culture of” does when it comes to, say, how we deal with rape and consent, as questioned by feminist women.
Looking at it that way helped me take it seriously. Because I was once, well, there’s rape, and it’s bad, and it’s even institutionalized in a WAY, but “rape culture?”. But I went over to the feminist hive mind on the issue, and I have to say it’s really helped my thinking. And I got to stay a crazy libertarian, too!
“THAT is whats getting annoying. I’m pulling up links for you, going through my bookmarks, because you’re too lazy to do your own homework and educate yourself. And this is after I already redirected you to two awesome books about rape culture that I told you to read first.”
This too. It’s rude to expect everybody to do your homework. There’s plenty of stuff on Rape culture, and people don’t HAVE to give you any of it.
I am not “demanding” anything. I have asked for information. If people choose to give it that is their call. If people do not wish to give it, that is their call as well.
What I have read on my own research about the existence of a rape culture has not been enough to prove me wrong. So I am asking others, others who believe that it does exist, because perhaps they would have better arguments, or better links, or better explanations as to why my feelings about the issue are wrong.
Apparently, to some people, that is trollish behavior. I have never seen that definition of trolling before.
And even though I have already stated that someone has made a very good argument as to why I am wrong. How many trolls admit that they may have been wrong on an issue? I have been using the internet for a very long time and I have never once see a troll admit he/she was wrong.
zhinxy: I have forward the link to my email address and have segregated it into a different folder so it doesn’t get lost in all the mess. I havn’t taken the time to go over it yet but I do intend on doing it at some point this week.
I am not expecting anyone to do my homework. But sometimes doing homework requires asking people where to go to look when searching by yourself doesn’t yield satisfactory results. I have read many links discussing rape culture. I had seen nothing to convince me it really exists UNTIL I came on this thread and someone made a very logical and compelling argument in favor of its existence that I found fairly logically sound.
Dan, I said you have misconceptions about rape, and although you say you’re open minded and willing to learn, from what I’ve seen so far I’m not holding my breath. You seem more passionate about false rape accusations, actually. Which makes sense, given your background, and its not that that’s not an issue that people should be concerned with; it’s just that it’s something that always happens in rape discussions online. Every single time.
You may be open minded about rape culture. It’s just hard to tell when most of what you’ve had to say on the subject has ranged from “it’s just a patchwork of a bunch of pro-rape examples of things that happen in society today, and not really a culture” to “this one website used one word I don’t think is completely accurate.”
I second what Bee says.
lj4adotcomdan, maybe you’re just in denial about rape culture? Maybe you don’t want it to exist, because it comes into conflict with some sort of interest you have? Like maybe you have a vested interest in wanting to believe that false rapes are a huge problem, because its happened to you, and just believing in that makes you feel better? I don’t know, I’m just making things up. But maybe you are in denial. Because otherwise I don’t understand how you still don’t “get” rape culture.
Bee: I have also had to deal with what would legally be described as a rape as well. I was out on a date with a woman. Things were not going as well as perhaps she liked. We were at her house. I had no idea where her house was and she kept saying that she would drive me home as soon as we got down to business.
What didn’t help matters much was the fact that because of my false accusation, I was concerned about what she might do or how she might react if I did not give her what she wanted. So, even though I didn’t want to do it. I forced my way through it.
Now, I am not going to sit her and say that what happened to me was in any way close to being as invasive as what other victims go through. And the false accusation impacted me much more than what happened that night. But the false accusation also impacted me and made me behave in a way that I might have otherwise had the false accusation not taken place.
There is also something else…. something I am not comfortable discussing online at this time. But lets just leave it at I have enough experience on both sides of the coin to actively be concerned with both sides of the issue.
Many of those things that I said about rape culture, were said before I made the comment about the logical argument presented to me.
Now, I am not going to sit her and say that what happened to me was in any way close to being as invasive as what other victims go through. ”
Sit anywhere and claim that. You deserve no less than any other survivor, male or female.
stephanie: I have said repeatedly that false accusations of rape are not a huge problem. Not sure why you would suggest I might feel otherwise. Perhaps you have just not seen those posts on this thread where I have stated this.
Up until today, I have denied the existence of “rape culture” because up until today I had yet to hear an argument that might convince me otherwise. The argument made earlier helps. But denying the rape culture had nothing to do with how anything impacted me. I just had not seen arguments that made me agree with what was being said. The argument that perhaps the reason why false accusations would harm real rape victims is because of an underlying rape culture is a very compelling one.
Actually, the fact that we have a man feeling unsure about whether or not a woman coercing him into sex is rape? That’s rape culture too.
I am too weary to explain why to this particular person though. Stressful day, ability to deal with obtuse people low right now.
I have a question to those that have been harsh to me (i.e. not Bee, zhinxy, stephanie and others who did participate in the conversation with me without being terrible).
Why do you just assume that everyone who does not agree that there is a rape culture is a horrible person that must be treated like garbage?
Wouldn’t that tend to drive away people who are not haters of women but who just need a little bit more than what might be out there to be convinced?
Well, when you’re so far in denial that you’d probably need to get a ten tonne weight to ram something through your thick skull, then reading stuff isn’t going to sink in, is it? Besides, it’s not everyone’s job here to fix your fucking misconceptions.
You might want to consider that when one in six women is raped at some point in their life, then the practice is endemic in culture. Possibly as many as one in ten men has suffered a sexual assault (including rape), many of those when they were children – the figures are complicated, and denialists like you aren’t helping promote visibility of male abuse. If similar numbers of people were murdered, i.e. not dying of natural causes or death by accident then we would speak of a death culture or a murder culture. So why do you have a problem with the term “rape culture”? Demographically, it’s far more prevalent than false accusations of rape.
In case you hadn’t notice, people make excuses for rape when it does occur, people joke about rape, people shame the victims of rape (especially if they are men), the police often treat accusations with scepticism or even contempt, the legal system finds it difficult to prosecute, courts frequently re-victimise the accuser, juries often will be sympathetic to the accused, and judges have often ruled rape out owing to the victim’s contributed negligence. And that’s in Western countries – take a look at some non-Western societies if you need to enlarge your horizons. That you apparently seem to be blind to these sorts of issues to this tells me you have very poor observation and reading skills.
Unobservant troll is unobservant (that’s in addition to being concerned, and very stupid).
And you’ve trolled this thread for a day or more, and you’re still issuing rape apologetics. In case you aren’t aware, a number of commenters on this thread are victims of rape, and even after twenty years, fucking idiots like you trigger me — which is why I kept out of this thread until now, but you’ve really upset me. Kindly fuck off.
I’m sure this is true, and that sucks, and yet I 100 percent stand by my statement that you seem more passionate about the false rape accusation issue and that every online discussion of rape is derailed into a discussion of false rape accusations.
The thing is, even with this revelation that one commenter here amazingly put forth a description that you finally accept as valid — I hope you’ll forgive me if I point out that that also sounds like something a troll on a feminist site would say.
Awesome, now he’s tone trolling.
This is why I keep refusing to engage. Not in the mood to do 101 work right now.
Cassandra
I came to that realization about 2 minutes ago. Right along with the realization that the likely reason I did not report it or talk about it to anyone because I felt nobody would believe me.
xanthe: I am going to take a deep breath here and just assume you had not read some of my more recent posts before responding to your post (most specifically my last comment to Bee).
Congratulations. Now take that revelation and apply it to female victims too. And take a moment to recognise that most of us had the revelation you experienced a long time ago, thus the irritation and having to deal with someone going NO, I DON’T GET IT, IT’S NOT TRUE, YOU MUST PROVE IT TO ME OR IT DOESN’T EXIST.
I am sorry that happened, Dan, that’s terrible.
@Hershele, I figured, but I communicate really poorly sometimes and I just wanted to make absolutely sure I wasn’t sending the wrong message 🙂
PS – When I was in high school, my boyfriend was gang raped. Even his own brother and his friends questioned what he might have done to make it happen. That right there? Rape culture.
The only people who offered him any support at all during that time? All feminists.