What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
Dan, it was a class about how to represent rape and sexual assault victims. Believe me, it wasn’t that my professor was saying that no one in any context should ever worry about/think about false accusations. But in a setting where people were trying to learn how to advocate for rape victims, it was a derail.
And again, the myth that women report rape when consensual sex occurred because they regret their consent is used ALL THE TIME as a defense in rape cases. Which isn’t to say that no one’s ever done that — but it’s good to keep that in mind. Not because we’re trying to diminish the painful effect of being legitimately falsely accused, but because we’re trying to get a complete picture of reality.
I’m sorry that you were falsely accused of rape. That must have been very difficult for you to deal with. FYI, I was raped and I didn’t report my rapists, because I knew I wouldn’t be believed.
“Rape in this country is surprisingly easy to get away with. The arrest rate last year was just 25 percent – a fraction of the rate for murder – 79 percent, and aggravated assault – 51 percent.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/09/cbsnews_investigates/main5590118.shtml
So you’re 3 times more likely to be arrested if accused of murder than of rape.
“The NVAWS estimated that only 18% of rape cases involving adult women
result in a conviction.”
http://www.uky.edu/CRVAW/files/TopTen/07_Rape_Prosecution.pdf
FBI statistics show false accusations are in line with other false crime accusations 6-8%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#False_reporting
“FBI reports consistently put the number of “unfounded” rape accusations around 8%. The average rate of unfounded reports for Index crimes is 2%.[8] However, “unfounded” is not synonymous with false allegation”
Rape apologist gets pissy when they’re called out for being apologists.
@lj4adotcomdan
I’m sorry that you were falsely accused of rape. That must have been a horrible experience to go through.
And clearly anybody that has been falsely accused of rape will deal with it in their own way, which is fine, and mentally healthy. I think this is what you were trying to do with your blog?
However, it is NOT okay to suddenly make it a political issue (e.g. becoming an MRA, rambling on about how false rape accusations are a major problem in this country, or that they are equivalent to actual rape, or even bringing up the topic of false rape accusations in an environment where people are discussing rape culture–an environment where many of those people are probably rape victims themselves).
False rape accusations happen, of course. Just like false accusations happen with any crime. However, they are NOT a political issue, they are NOT prevalent, and as other people have already stated, you are derailing from the topic of rape culture when you actually bring up false rape accusations.
The discourse surrounding false rape accusations is what contributes to rape culture. The professor that Bee quoted above said it best.
MsN, I pointed that out in response to you posting this:
which either showed a really major misunderstanding of how the criminal justice system functions in the States, or the belief that rape is handled in civil court.
And yes, hell kell, I would like to see why 1 in 6 meets your definition of widespread. 5 in 6 would. 3 in 6 would. Not sure 1 in 6 qualifies.
Dan, let me talk about an entirely different word for a minute, and how its meaning evolved. The word I have in mind is “decimate.” The literal, denotative meaning of “decimate” is “to kill or destroy 1/10th of a group.” To decimate a population is to kill 1 in every 10 people within it.
The connotative meaning of “decimate,” however, is something more like “to destroy, to wreak incredible damage upon, to devastate.”
So I want you to think for a minute. How is it that a word that means “to kill one tenth of” came to be understood as “to wreak incredible damage upon”? Could it possibly be because killing one tenth of a population has a tremendous effect on that population? That 1/10th of a group of people is a highly significant portion of that group? That something which significantly affects 1 in 10 members of a group is actually a REALLY BIG DEAL?
And if so, can you stop and think about what something that affects 1 in 6 must be like?
@lj4adotcomdan
I just want to add that I find it incredibly offensive when people treat false rape accusations like they are an actual political issue, or bring them up in a discussion about rape culture.
Out of all the women I have known in my life, first of all, almost every single one of them has been sexually harassed. Many women I have known have been sexually assaulted, or almost sexually assaulted. Many women I have have been raped. I also should add that I have known a couple of men that have been raped as well.
However, out of all the women I have ever known that have been a victim of rape or attempted rape or sexual assault, only ONE ever went to the police. And she didn’t even report the rape. She just reported that her boyfriend was abusing her, which he was, but she didn’t even mention the rape that had happened (I actually don’t think that she realized what had happened to her was rape).
She is the ONLY woman I have ever known that actually went to the police. None of the other women or men ever went to the police.
Furthermore, I have NEVER known anybody that has falsely accused somebody of rape, nor of anybody that has been falsely accused of rape.
Way too many people are getting raped, way too many people are not reporting their rape, and hardly anybody is ever getting falsely accused.
This is why I find it absolutely fucking offensive when somebody mentions the “problem” of false rape accusations when people are actually discussing the REALITY of rape.
manram: I would say that currently I see what is being defined as “rape culture” as partially implicit and partially explicit.
Are you saying it is all implicit?
I do have another question that may or may not be related. Do you feel (or have others in support of the idea that a rape culture exists) that the requirements when it comes to the burden of proof to convict in criminal cases makes it hard to convict people who committed rapes and as such contributes to the existence of a “rape culture”?
cynical:
That was not me being pissy at all.
Please explain to me why I am a “rape apologist”.
I am trying to learn why others believe there is a “rape culture” even though I currently do not understand why they believe it. To me, trying to learn why people believe something exists is not bad or wrong. Or are you trying to claim that if I don’t automatically believe what other people say without question then I am a rape apologist.
I clearly believe that rape is wrong and that the definition of rape is more than just saying no but also includes the inability to say yes in a clear and rational state. This is in opposition to many actual rape apologists believe? Is it that because I state that I am also a victim of a false accusation of rape that you believe I some how am a rape apologist?
Hell, I even oppose NWO and his moronic claims about the removal of the word “forced”. I stand in opposition to supposed MRA and their misogyny they use in combating the what they believe is “eeeevil” feminists attempting to subvert men in this country. I even confirm that I disagree with them and that there is an institutionalized sexism that exists in this country that benefits men over women in most areas of life.
So again, please, what makes me a “rape apologist”?
lj4a, it is odd that you are able to see the points (you provided yourself several examples!) but not the pattern. Maybe you are indeed a feminist, but then you are a feminist than need new glasses.
Prevalent. Words are tricky and language is always a complicated thing. The root of a word can be useful to understand it, but it’s not a definition. (Definitions can change but roots can’t)
Choosing to trust the root of the word (because it is your preconceived knowledge or because it helps your argument) rather than the dictionary definition that was provided is a trollish behavior.
You said you don’t believe we live in a rape culture but in the same time you refuse the widely accepted definition of this term. Which is weird. You seem to accept most facts that are given to you but refuse to call this, put together ‘rape culture’.
You can’t redefine rape culture. Rape culture never meant “half (or more) of all women will be raped in their life and this is officially endorsed” and if you want to argue there is no such thing as “rape culture” it can’t be done by arguing “this thing that you don’t thing fit in the definition is not true therefor you’re wrong”
Nobody who “believe” in rape culture believe it means rape happens to the majority of women. So twisting the definition of rape culture to make it include this part could also very well be seen as trollish.
Advice for internet arguments: don’t accuse your opponent of trolling if they are a regular commenter on the website. (and obviously, not considered as a troll in such place) It will make all your arguments sound weaker to the regular readers, commenters or lurkers.
” So I am not trying to trivialize the 1 in 6 number as that number is hardly trivial. But I am making the point that 1 in 6 does not satisfy the dictionary definition of prevalent.”
1 in 6 isn’t enough for you to consider rape prevalent? What, does it have to be over 50%? 75%?
After that statement I am not engaging with you any further. That was a genuinely disgusting thing to say. In a country with a population of 250 million, that is over 41 million victims. What in the hell is wrong with you that you don’t consider that prevalent enough to be evidence of a real cultural problem?
Not on topic, but about words. I’m trying to get my head around the terms “prevalence” and “incidence”, for work. Would it be correct to say “The prevalence of having-been-raped is 1 in 6 for women” and “The incidence of rape is X women per year.” Have I got that the right way around?
Stephanie: When I brought up the idea of false accusations in this argument, it is when I was questioning the idea of the rape culture.
“I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd”
And when I brought it up, it was only to say that I dismiss the notion that we live in a “false rape society” just to make sure it was clear that I was not coming from the MRAtmosphere. It then spiraled out of control from there. I had no intention of making the discussion of this into a discussion of false accusations of rape.
I am not going to say that false rape accusations are in and of themselves a political issue. However, what I do have a problem with is when people automatically believe that the person must be guilty just because an accusation was made. We, as a society, can both treat people as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law while also treating a woman who makes a rape accusation with dignity and respect.
I also know women who have been raped (or who men tried to rape). My wife even kicked a potential rapist in his nuts when he tried to do something she did not want to do.
On the frequency of false accusations of rape and the relevance, what would happen if the likelihood of being raped was the exact same as the likelihood of being falsely accused of rape? How would you, in that hypothetical situation, react to someone who mentioned that because of the rarity that it shouldn’t be a political issue and that “hardly anyone is ever raped”?
False rape accusations are a small, tiny, miniscule problem compared to the problem of Rape. That doesn’t mean they should just be ignored, that the pain is not real, and that people should go unpunished.
Furthermore, I think the false accusers harm actual rape victims as well. Do you agree the false rape cases of Duke and Hofstra caused harm to real victims of rape who try and get justice?
Okay, so there are a few things going on here that I think you’re conflating. The burden of proof in a criminal case is that the state must prove that the rape happened beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense can claim the rape didn’t happen, it happened but the defendant didn’t do it, or it wasn’t rape it was consensual sex. Due to DNA testing availability, most defendants claim consent as a defense. I believe (though I’m not 100 percent sure) that the jury would weigh the evidence presented by the DA and the evidence presented by the defense to see whether the state has met its burden.
That aspect of a criminal trial doesn’t specifically get to what impact rape culture has on convictions. States have made a lot of changes to rape laws in the past few decades. Notably, marital rape is a crime, there are rape shield laws that say that a victim’s sexual history is generally inadmissible, there is no longer a witness requirement or a utmost resistance requirement. But some of these outdated notions still come into play in a criminal trial. Even though there are rape shield laws, if the defense finds a way to introduce evidence that the victim is a slut, they can discredit her. (See: the Kobe Bryant case, before the victim decided she didn’t want to testify.) Juries are hesitant to convict on marital rape charges. Because the defense consent creates a he said-she said argument that rests on likeability and credibility, jurors look for bruises and injuries to prove nonconsent or force, creating a default utmost resistance element. Jurors are likewise hesitant to convict in cases where the victim was drunk or on drugs — there’s no memory, and besides, why was she out drinking with this guy if she didn’t want to have sex with him?
These are all things that aren’t, strictly speaking, required as a part of the burden of proof, but are a part of most criminal rape cases, and are informed by rape culture and rape myths. Despite all the changes in rape law over the past few decades, the conviction rate remains the same. Society’s ideas about rape remain the same. If you read histories about rape jurisprudence, you read the same fucking things that you read in news articles, see in movies, and read on MRM blogs today. (Hell, if you read histories about misogyny, feminism, gender — same thing — although I feel like that drawing the line between misogyny/othering/denial of autonomy and rape culture is a little too advanced a topic for you today.)
“On the frequency of false accusations of rape and the relevance, what would happen if the likelihood of being raped was the exact same as the likelihood of being falsely accused of rape? How would you, in that hypothetical situation, react to someone who mentioned that because of the rarity that it shouldn’t be a political issue and that “hardly anyone is ever raped”? ”
We’re not dealing with “what-ifs” here, but actual realities. The reality here is that rape is a major problem, and even though false accusations happen, they should not be made an actual political issue the way MRAs make it.
If we lived in a society where false accusations happened as often as actual rape, then it wouldn’t be a rape culture. False rape accusations are estimated to be at about 2% of all rape accusations. Given that less than 10% of rapes are reported, and 2% of those accusations are false, the ratio of actual rapes (reported and unreported) vs men falsely accused of rape would be: 1000:2 or 500:1
(Please correct me if I did the math wrong).
So for every 1 man that was falsely accused of rape, 500 women were ACTUALLY raped, and 90% of those women did not report the rape.
If women were raped at the same prevalence as men falsely accused of rape… rape would be virtually a non-issue. Rape accusations would not be made, because they would hardly be happening. Same with false rape accusations.
Small point, but I want to mention that of course rape can be, and often is the basis for civil law suits.
Although, yes, this:
is … the product of a confused mind.
“Furthermore, I think the false accusers harm actual rape victims as well. Do you agree the false rape cases of Duke and Hofstra caused harm to real victims of rape who try and get justice?”
I think those cases DO do damage because MRAs and other rape apologists cite them in arguments as evidence that “false rape accusations” are happening left, right and center.
Oops, Bee. Making mistakes correcting mistakes, silly me! Thanks for fixing that.
Also,
“However, what I do have a problem with is when people automatically believe that the person must be guilty just because an accusation was made. We, as a society, can both treat people as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law while also treating a woman who makes a rape accusation with dignity and respect.”
I do agree with you that people should be innocent until proven guilty, but you’re misunderstanding how our rape culture works.
Our rape culture persecutes the victim for making such a claim. This is why Rape Shield laws are necessary. Victims’ are NOT treated with dignity and respect. Their personal histories are put on trial, every single one of their actions questioned (“what were you wearing that night? how do we know you didn’t consent? how much did you resist? you had sex with this man before, so why was it rape this time? why were you drinking?” etc.)
re: Rape Culture 101 article.
Oh? Please elaborate what my mind is confused about….
Briefly, if the victim/accuser is the plaintiff, it’s a civil trial, and guilt/innocence doesn’t enter into it. The plaintiff tries to prove the elements of the case; the defendant either argues that the plaintiff didn’t meet the burden of proof or presents a defense. In other words, it’s not that the plaintiff would prove the defendant is “guilty,” but rather that the plaintiff has to establish/prove the elements of the claim, whatever claim was brought (assault, battery, IIED, false imprisonment, etc.).
In a criminal trial, the victim is not the plaintiff; she’s a witness. The state brings charges and must prove the defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
“Furthermore, I think the false accusers harm actual rape victims as well. Do you agree the false rape cases of Duke and Hofstra caused harm to real victims of rape who try and get justice?”
See, that part of the rape culture too. Rape is almost never treated like other crimes. If we were speaking about murder, theft, assault or anything but rape, nobody would ever suggest that false claims harm the actual victims.
So, yeah, it harms real victims in the sense that people feel a little more justified in denying rape.
It should harm them – but it does and more than for any other crime – and it wouldn’t if this wasn’t a rape culture.
polliwog: As I have tried to say, repeatedly, I in no way was trying to say that 1 and 6 was not an abhorrent statistic that is way to high when I was saying that it was not representative of something that is prevalent.
stephanie: See, I disagree with you. If rape happened at the same frequency as false accusations, it would still be an issue and it would be wrong to try and discount the pain felt by those who are raped. Because it is not a matter of how many people are not having autonomy over their body, it is the fact that anybody is being denied body autonomy.
That is why when I am arguing with pro-lifers and they try and claim that only 1% of abortions are because of rape, I tell them “so what?” It is wrong to tell any raped woman that she should be prevented from having autonomy over her own body. (Of course, it is wrong to tell anyone that they do not have autonomy over their own body)
I guarantee you that you would flip out (and rightly so) if an anti-choice embryo lover said that rape statistics in abortion do not matter because they do not happen at a large enough frequency. Right?
So that is why to me, frequency does not matter. If it is wrong, it is wrong.
lj4adotcomdan:
“Are you saying it is all implicit?”
I think, although maybe some people here disagree with me, that it is almost entirely implicit and subconscious. When you say that you have “problems with the idea that we live in a ‘rape culture'” because “most people in our society believe that rape is wrong,” you’re completely ignoring the parts of it that are implicit and subconscious. A person can consciously find rape abhorrent and still subconsciously hold a number of beliefs and assumptions that excuse rape, and this is what rape culture most often entails.
“Do you feel (or have others in support of the idea that a rape culture exists) that the requirements when it comes to the burden of proof to convict in criminal cases makes it hard to convict people who committed rapes and as such contributes to the existence of a ‘rape culture’?”
No, burden of proof is not part of rape culture, and I don’t think anybody is saying that it is. Aspects of rape culture often masquerade as “burden of proof” during rape trials, precisely because they play on people’s unconscious beliefs and biases. When there is video footage proving that a rape took place and jurors still aren’t sure that the burden of proof has been met, that is rape culture.