What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
I looked at several definitions of prevalent. Some did mention widespread but also implied that it also had to be dominant or generally accepted.
And yes, hell kell, I would like to see why 1 in 6 meets your definition of widespread. 5 in 6 would. 3 in 6 would. Not sure 1 in 6 qualifies.
Look at the root: late 16th century: from Latin praevalent- ‘having greater power’, from the verb praevalere (see prevail)
caraz: Brick walls do not talk back. Brick walls would not admit that they might be wrong. Brick walls are not interested in learning via debate of the issues.
So no, it is not.
Agree with hellkell on question 1. And would add that the fact that you are so oblivious to what rape culture is and does, and so intent on denying it, shows that you really don’t understand rape, rape myths, what rape victims deal with, how rapists use these myths to hide their crimes, etc. An effective advocate would have some working knowledge of these things, or at least a willingness to learn.
Why? Are you thinking that you want to pursue anti-rape activism as a career, or volunteer work?
Well, listen. My professor actually did a really great job on this when one of my classmates started talking about false accusations. She acknowledged that it’s a problem, that it exists, and that it hurts everyone. But she quickly turned the conversation back to rape, and how one of the rape myths that harms victims is that women frequently lie about being raped, that they lie about it because they regret consenting, and that this is a commonly held myth that rapists rely on if they’re accused. I think she addressed it by saying something like this: Yes, false accusations happen, and research shows that it’s infrequent. Most reported rapes end up not going to trial; most of the cases that go to trial end up being acquitted; most of the cases that aren’t acquitted result in less than two years of jail time. So, while it’s unfortunate that any false accusations are made, its important to see them in the larger perspective of how rape accusations are treated in the legal system. And then she continued with the class.
It’s another thing to let false accusation talk derail the conversation. If false accusations are your “thing” and that’s what you really want to focus on, then focus on it. Too often talking about rape ends up in a derailment about false accusations, and, frankly, that says a lot about this rape culture that you think doesn’t exist.
lj4adotcomdan, do you get that rape culture isn’t something that operates on people’s conscious reasoning, and that its participants are generally completely unaware that it exists? You seem to be really resistant to the concept because you know that most people do not self identify as pro-rape (which is true) but that is orthogonal to what people are discussing here. Do you understand that?
Honestly the only one that doesn’t apply seems to be the talking back thing. In some ways I see that as an advantage of the wall.
@Bee: At one time in one of the last Troll Discussions of “omg how horrible false accusations are they hurt so many men,” someone here (Pecunium I think! but don’t quote me) had a really good post about the percentage of false rape accusations (i.e. they are no more prevalent than the false accusations of other crimes), so to single them out as somehow MORE prevalent and MORE painful and MORE likely to end up with the innocent men in prison, is, as we say in academia, problematic (meaning wronger than shit and stupid dickbiscuit move). When he (or the person who did post it if I’m wrong) joins us again, he might be able to repost. It was a useful post.
But yes, given how MANY MANY discussions among women about rape get derailed by MALE TROLL SHITHEAD barging in to blather on about false rape accusations by horrible, evil women (as opposed to the VERY REAL ISSUE of men raping men), against innocent men, then yeah: it’s rape culture, it’s sexism, it’s patriarchal ideology (“the man is always the most important person in the discussion), and often, it’s nasty and triggering as hell to the women involved.
So: Troll Dude wanders in pretending to be equally concerned about rape (but no such thing as rape culture exists), and false rape accusations (against men).
When presented with lots of evidence about rape culture and its omnipresent, institutionalized, cultural elements, he denies it all based on his BELIEF and the fact that it’s not literal rape.
When presented with evidence about “literal rape,” he decides that it’s not “majority” enough to be rape culture, and wants to ask us how he can be an advocate for rape victims and the victims of false rape accusations (again, false equivalency).
And I would imagine Stephanie’s excellent explanation of the CONTINUUM of rape culture will also be met with flatout denial and lack of belief.
Obvious CLUELESSTROLL is obvious in his male privilege, rape apologism, and denial (especially with the semantic quibbling over what statistical minimum would meet the dictionary definition of prevalent).
ithiliana: Yeah, it’s something I’ve done a lot of research on over the years. This is a really good, accessible blog post that kind of lays out the findings about false rape accusations and some of the problems with even trying to define what a “false accusation” is.
Stephanie: I do believe that there is institutionalized sexism and part of that is contributed by the harassment that can occur in many forms.
LJ: have you ever heard of the Innocence Project or related ones that actually work to get innocent men out of prison (majority in Texas are Black of course, because RACIST CULTURE)? Do you contribute in any way to such efforts? Or do you think your best choice to help innocent men who are in prison (often, because of racist white prosecutions and not evil women making false accusations of rape) is to lecture a lot of people (many of them feminists, many of them women) on a blog dedicated to mocking misogyny?
Clue: Get one, plz.
@Bee: need to shop (OUT OF CAT FOOD OMG), but will check later. I do know that MRA/trollz conflate all cases, including the ones where no conviction occurred, and the ones that are driven by police and prosecutorial misconduct, to make it all (no surprise), the women’s fault!
@Bee
“My professor actually did a really great job on this when one of my classmates started talking about false accusations. She acknowledged that it’s a problem, that it exists, and that it hurts everyone. But she quickly turned the conversation back to rape, and how one of the rape myths that harms victims is that women frequently lie about being raped, that they lie about it because they regret consenting, and that this is a commonly held myth that rapists rely on if they’re accused. I think she addressed it by saying something like this: Yes, false accusations happen, and research shows that it’s infrequent. Most reported rapes end up not going to trial; most of the cases that go to trial end up being acquitted; most of the cases that aren’t acquitted result in less than two years of jail time. So, while it’s unfortunate that any false accusations are made, its important to see them in the larger perspective of how rape accusations are treated in the legal system. And then she continued with the class.”
I really like that approach.
Obvious CLUELESSTROLL also wants to play NWO’s “word root” game. Fuck that disingenuous noise.
@ Stephanie re. Rooshy – Holy shit indeed. Just how is “Rape Game” supposed to be different from plain ol’ rape again?
ithiliana: wow. Again, how you are not considered the troll here is beyond me.
I NEVER, I repeat NEVER… I repeat again NEVER said that I am equally concerned about rape and false accusations of rape. That is YOUR strawman argument that you keep repeating over and over again (ad nauseum) and it is absolutely untrue.
Rape is a much more dangerous and much more frequent crime than the crime of making a false accusation of rape. The crime of rape deserves much more attention and much more of an effort in prevention than the crime of a false accusation of rape. That I believe the crime of false accusation of rape deserves more attention than it currently gets in no way makes me a rape apologist.
AND I EVEN CALLED IT when I said that there would be people who would take my comments about how 1 in 6 didn’t equal “prevalence” and assume that it meant i was discounting or in other way dismissing those numbers. That is why I worded my statements in the way that I did, to make sure that people who bother to actually read comments would know that 1 in 6 is still way too much and that I was not trying to dismiss those who are raped by bringing up that comment. Of course, people like you are either unwilling or incapable of reading entire posts and as such the words were lost on you. But I did pretty much predict your trollish behavior and you proved me right.
right hell kell, we shouldn’t be worried about where words come from and what they actually mean. We should just make up definitions because they sound good.
Like calling an act that eliminates rights as a “patriot act” (as if one is not a patriot if one opposes it.
lj4adotcom, I would really like to hear your answer to my question upthread. I’m curious if that is part of the disconnect here.
It’s cute when one of our trolls tries to tell us words mean something.
Oh yuck, sorry about that, lj4adotcomdan.
Steph and Bee: I do not know the context in which the person brought up false accusations of rape in the classroom.
However, as a victim of a false accusation of rape, it seems like a rather unfortunate dismissal of the topic of false accusations of rape. To me, and maybe I am wrong, but it seemed to say that because it is so rare we shouldn’t worry about it.
See, in discussing the issue of false accusations before, women have come back at me sarcastically saying “oh yes, keep saying that women frequently lie about being raped”.
And no, I do not believe that women frequently lie about being raped. But some do, and it happened to me, and it is still painful to deal with.
Well, and just to reiterate what I said above, I’m not assuming that you’re dismissing the NUMBERS, I’m just amazed that you read one description of rape culture, saw that one of the ways that description referred to rape culture was as an environment where rape was “prevalent,” and decided that since one in six isn’t (in your mind) “prevalent” this confirms your initial belief that the entire concept of rape culture is whack, despite your totally open mind and willingness to learn.
That’s what I find bizarre about your comment, Dan.
mamram: Could I ask you to give me the question again? I would be more than happy to answer it.
Sure:
“do you get that rape culture isn’t something that operates on people’s conscious reasoning, and that its participants are generally completely unaware that it exists? You seem to be really resistant to the concept because you know that most people do not self identify as pro-rape (which is true) but that is orthogonal to what people are discussing here. Do you understand that?”
Or to put it a different way, I’m wondering if you are on the same page as everybody else as to the nature of rape culture: that it’s a set of implicit cultural assumptions that are held subconsciously for the most part, not a deliberate thing. You have made a number of comments that indicate that make me wonder if you are getting that point. So are you?
bee: I am sorry if I wasn’t more clear. I found the Marshall definition of rape culture to be contradictory because it requires rape to be “prevalent” and I guess I find the use of that word typically to mean something that prevails, i.e. is the most likely thing to happen and when it is 1 out of 6 or 1 out of 4, that is far too much but it is not prevalent.
I am not saying that my dismissal of the Marshall definition means that I dismiss all definitions. I was just dealing with that specific definition that Marshall gives and my problem with it.
I hope that is a little more clear.
I will go look at the other sites that ithiliana suggsted, even though I find ithiliana to be a horrid person so far. I will also look at the other links suggested as well.
Tres vrai. But what is your purpose in stating the obvious in reply to what I posted?
Presumed innocence is a fundamental tenet of american criminal law; and the crime of rape is no exception. A person accused of rape for whom charges have been filed does indeed have the right to a fair trial. By that I mean that burden of proof rests on the prosecution to PROVE that the defendant is guilty and NOT on the defendant to prove that he(or she) is innocent!