What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
ithiliana: Do you remember what page it is on?
lj4: go find it yourself.
What IS IT with the clueless yet overentitled dudes who come up in here and demand things, up to and including education? They’re never original or funny (except inadvertently).
hellkell: I was just asking. Sheesh. And I did go find the page with the link before I read your post.
Because I ask questions I am clueless and over entitled? That is just laughable.
@lj4adotcomdan
I’m 24. These classes would have started in grade 7, which was in 2000. Not that long ago. And I live in Toronto, which is an extremely liberal, progressive city…. I can only imagine what goes on in some states in the U.S., where they have abstinence-only education (they do not have that here, at least in my school board).
I don’t have any statistics to tell you about “how many” different sex ed programs teach that. The point is that this is one example of an attitude that comes from a culture which believes that women cannot withdraw consent once sex has started.
@lj4adotcomdan
regarding your story about the frat boys with the rape whistle…
what would you say if I told you that 10% of college aged men will admit to rape, as long as the word “rape” isn’t used? There’s been over a dozen studies on this. Thomas from Yes Means Yes talks about one ( http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ ) but there are many more that have estimated there are a lot more rapists than in the study he looks at. I can’t seem to find the link at the moment.
Those frat boys that you’re speaking about are part of that 10%. Yet they don’t think of themselves as rapists.
So 10% of men are going around raping people, 1 out of 4 women are raped by the time they are in university, yet you still don’t believe in a rape culture?
Oh, here’s a list of all the studies that have estimated that 5 – 15 % of university-aged men have raped:
http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/RAPE_FACT_SHEET1.pdf
Dan, I’m totally baffled, then. You say you’re open minded to proof that a rape culture does exist, but you just don’t believe it because you think that most people don’t blame victims, don’t think that a woman is asking to be raped just because she has been intimate with her rapist in the past, is drunk, is wearing a low-cut blouse, etc. But the fact that studies on U.S. and British juries and the U.S. and British public show that these beliefs are prevalent doesn’t have any impact on you, and apparently you think that watching TV shows and movies, reading books and news articles and blogs about how the victim should have known better/really wanted it and how boys will be boys — none of that has any impact on the viewer and on their attitudes toward rape and rape victims.
I hope you’ll forgive me. I’m starting to feel like you’re not as open minded as you say.
Or maybe you don’t know what culture is? Do you understand that not everyone needs to actively endorse a thing in order for it to be an insidious part of our culture? Do you know what rape myths are? I feel like you’re saying that rape culture doesn’t exist based on the fact that there are feminist sites that call out rape culture and disagree with rape myths, or that victim advocates endorse the idea that no one “asks” to be raped. But these are reactions against rape culture.
I’m trying to think of an analogy. Just because I’m an atheist and my boyfriend is an atheist and most of my friends never talk about religion doesn’t mean that there is no judeo-christian culture in the U.S. Just because I don’t eat hotdogs and hamburgers or watch baseball doesn’t mean that there’s no such thing as American culture. Just because lots of Americans hate violence and don’t own guns doesn’t mean there’s no culture of violence in the U.S. What aren’t you getting here?
“I don’t wish to pry about your age, but how long ago were those sex ed classes? And in what area of the country did they take place in?”
You didn’t ask me, but just to corroborate, I am 25, and I was taught the exact same thing in health classes between the sixth and tenth grades (so a number of different teachers) in an extremely liberal suburb of Boston. No student ever said, “hey, that’s totally crazy and not in line with what I have been taught about who is in charge of what happens to women’s bodies,” and no parent ever complained. The idea that it’s unreasonable for a woman to revoke consent when it is inconvenient for a male sex partner is pretty pervasive, to the point that most people can’t even see what a gross, rapey idea it is.
Ok, going to the Marshall site that came up high in the search:
Rape is not prevalent. Most women will not be raped. http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims (1 out of 6 women will either be raped or be a victim of an attempted rape). This number is, of course, far to high and rape would be just as wrong if it happened to 1 in 2 women or 1 in 100. So I am not trying to trivialize the 1 in 6 number as that number is hardly trivial. But I am making the point that 1 in 6 does not satisfy the dictionary definition of prevalent.
As such, rape is not normalized.
There are examples of rape being excused in the media and popular culture. There are also examples of rape being condemned in the media and popular culture.
I can agree with that.
Most people limit behavior based on the existence of many other crimes. I do not walk down the street at night in a bad neighborhood because I am afraid I might get murdered. This does not mean we live in a murder culture.
I do have to get some other things done today so I will have to continue the reading later. But I have saved the search for future reference and study.
And yet there is only one state with a statute that recognizes that consent can be withdrawn after penetration, and seven states with case law that recognize withdrawal of consent. Nope! No rape culture here!
1 in 6 isn’t prevalent? What is the dictionary definition of prevalent?
“prev·a·lent (prv-lnt)
adj.
Widely or commonly occurring, existing, accepted, or practiced. See Synonyms at prevailing.”
Yep I think that fits. Rape is commonly occuring. 1 in 6 fits that definition.
@lj4adotcomdan
Please go read the sources I redirected you towards before. Maybe when you read them you will understand rape culture better. Everybody is telling you what it is, but these conversations are going in circles. Just read the books first.
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-3/#comment-95901
Approximately 1 in 6. Like, 17% of women. Not prevalent. Yeah okay good talk. Props to everyone actually willing to engage here, because I’m imagining it’s something vaguely akin to repeatedly running into a wall head-first.
LJ#4:
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=rape%20culture%20site%3Aedu&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&fp=6b7d8689dc994193&ion=1&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6b7d8689dc994193&biw=1280&bih=939&ion=1
Rape culture plus site:edu (meaning USian universities). Check ’em out.
@stephanie
The frat boys I spoke of openly admitted that they would use it while raping a woman.
Is the RAINN statistic wrong? Because RAINN says 1 in 6 are raped. Of course, as I said previously, 1 in 100 or 1 in 2, either would be too much.
According to the Marshall university definition, you have a “rape culture” where rape is “prevalent”. The definition of “prevalent” implies a majority. A majority of women are not raped.
I have another question but i am going to save it for a new post as it is for everyone.
lj4adotcomdan
If 1 in 6 (or whatever statistic you want to use) isn’t prevalent, would it be prevalent if you replaced the word “rape” with “murder”?
If 1 in 6 women were being murdered, and 1 in 10 men were murderers of women (and less than 10 percent of the time were actually reported to the police), would that be a prevalence of murders?
How would that NOT be a gendered genocide?
“Is the RAINN statistic wrong? Because RAINN says 1 in 6 are raped. Of course, as I said previously, 1 in 100 or 1 in 2, either would be too much. ”
Different studies have come up with different numbers. The most prevalent I’ve heard is 1 in 3 (if you’re not including the 1 out of 2 in South Africa), and the least prevalent is 1 in 6. I just say 1 in 4 because I think that’s the statistic that I heard first, many years ago. Plus I honestly believe its more than 1 out of 6, knowing how many of my friends have been raped.
Questions for everyone: Do I need to agree that there exists something called a “rape culture” in order to stand up against injustices done towards victims of rape?
Can I deny that our culture is a rape culture while concurrently seeking to:
A) Educate people on the different forms of rape that they might not consider rape
B) Empower victims to increase the numbers of rapes reported and the number of rape kits collected so that they come forward and lock up a rapist before the rapist can rape again?
C) Increase funding to law enforcement so that more rape kits can be processed and not sitting on shelves
D) Train law enforcement to treat people making an accusation of rape with integrity and respoect
E) Educate people on what evidence is relevant in a rape trial and what is not relevant?
F) Taking any other steps to punish rapists and prevent future rapes?
AND
Can one be an activist to both help educate people on the realities of rape as listed above while also speaking out about the issue of false accusations of rape and how they not only hurt the falsely accused but they also hurt actual victims of rape?
Yeah, now that he claims 1 in 6 doesn’t meet the definition of prevalent, he’s losing whatever scant credibility he came in with.
“The definition of “prevalent” implies a majority.”
No it does not. I literally quoted a dictionary definition before, But here is another (Oxford):
“Widespread in a particular area or at a particular time.”
Prevalent does not necessarily mean ‘majority’. It means widespread.
I’m going to say not effectively, because you’re acting like rape happens in a vacuum and that attitudes about it aren’t influenced by the culture at large and vice versa.
So, because a university website describing rape culture to its students used the word “prevalent” when describing rape, and only one in six U.S. women is raped (although some are raped multiple times), and Dan thinks prevalent = majority, rape culture clearly does not exist! Well, *wipes hands* my work is clearly done then. I shall retire.
1. The Marshall website is one site that one university created. Who created it? Why? What training did they have? We don’t know, but Dan knows that this is the Best Definition of Rape Culture Ever.
2. “Prevalent” according to the dictionary means common or widespread. But Dan knows better. It actually means a majority, and since less than 50% of all U.S. women get raped, and Marshall’s website on rape culture said rape is prevalent, therefore there is no such thing as rape culture.
3. All other websites and descriptions of rape culture can go suck eggs. Because Marshall has a website that describes rape culture, and it said something that was worded incorrectly according to Dan’s understanding of the word “prevalent.” It’s misstatement negates all other definitions and descriptions of this thing that he’s really, really open-minded about and would like to believe, if only someone were able to describe it to him.
Logic x 3!
stephanie: I would say that prevalent would potentially be the wrong word as most of the dictionaries I am seeing seem to imply a majority.
Again, this is not to diminish or in any other way discount or dismiss the numbers as being trivial (as I am afraid some here (not you) might assume if I just leave it at the first sentence alone).
Looking at the numbers another way, 5 out of 6 (or 3 out of 4) women are not raped and 9 out of 10 men do not rape. To me, that is not enough to say that we have a “rape culture” and other evidence would be needed.
…so this is what talking to a brick wall is like.
lj4adotcomdan
What about sexual harassment? Almost every single woman I know has been sexually harassed.
Like this:
http://www.leftycartoons.com/street-harassment/?ref=nf
Street harassment, groping, stalking, any sort of unwanted, threatening sexual attention… almost every woman has experienced that.
If you think of rape culture as a continuum, all those forms of sexual harassment are PART of rape culture. Women’s bodies being treated like property IS rape culture. It doesn’t necessarily have to lead to rape in every instance, but it CAN.