What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
zhinxy: I have emailed myself the link to make sure I can read it later.
Roosh? Yes. That’s bordering on predatory at the minimum. Ick. His description of the sex with the drunk girl was…yeah it wasn’t good sex not for either of them, but I guess he was happy since he boned her.
Wow, that Roosh site is filled with rapists/potential rapists.
“Never ask a woman for advice on anything besides maybe fashion, and never let a woman influence you with her flawed and shockingly incomplete body of knowledge. Seek out a woman for her beauty, femininity, sexuality, and pleasing, low-maintenance personality, but not for her intelligence. The more of it she thinks she has, the more pompous bullshit you’ll have to put up with.”
From here: http://www.rooshv.com/never-listen-to-a-woman
Where in our “culture”, besides maybe idiot MRA websites, do people believe that you cannot withdraw consent at any time?
Virtually everywhere.
I’ve worked with a support group for rape and sexual assault survivors, and am one myself, and all of them tell the same kind of stories of what happened when they tried to tell people what happened to them. Nearly every person who was assaulted by someone she was romantically involved with was told, usually more than once, “Of course you consented, he’s your husband!” (or boyfriend, or girlfriend, etc.) They have stories about being told that their attackers “must have just misunderstood.” They have stories of being told that it’s just “unreasonable” to expect a man to stop what he’s doing if he’s turned on, and “unfair” to ask it of him in the first place. They have stories of being told – by people they love, people they trusted – that they simply cannot be telling the truth, based on nothing at all but the speaker’s discomfort at the idea of knowing a rapist. They have stories of being laughed at, of being treated horribly by law enforcement, and of better cops telling them, “I sympathize, but realistically, you don’t want to put yourself through this – it’ll be hellish, and the rapist is never going to get convicted, anyway.” They have stories of losing friends, losing family, losing jobs because they dared to admit to having been victimized. They have truly horrible stories of being raped repeatedly by family members and having the rest of their family be entirely aware and unwilling to intervene, because it was easier just to pretend nothing was happening. They all have a story like this – except for a few whose story is “I never told anyone at all till now, because I was too afraid.”
You don’t see it. Fine. But reality is not confined solely to things that you, personally, see. Talk to a rape survivor. Ask her (or him) if she has felt like society has supported her. Ask her if she feels like the prevailing culture is one in which she was confident her rapist would be held accountable for his crime, and that she would not be blamed for his actions. Ask her if she feels like she can state openly that she is a rape survivor to everyone she meets, or if she has been made to feel that this is something she should be ashamed of. Ask her if she has ever been so worn down by the common cultural perception of rape that she starts to wonder if maybe she really WAS asking for it, if she really DID deserve it for wearing that skirt or dating that guy or drinking that beer or just being somehow, undefinably bad. Ask me. Ask any of the others here who’ve discussed being assaulted. And consider that maybe, just maybe, our reality is just as real as yours, and somewhat more relevant to the discussion at hand.
I’ve never been to China. If I went only by things I’ve personally seen, I could argue that China doesn’t exist – but instead, I trust that the millions of Chinese people out there probably have some idea what they’re talking about when they say that China’s existence is eminently real and obvious to them.
And that’s the problem. Sex isn’t about mutual pleasure, or even really his own. It’s about winning, putting marks on a scoreboard. Which is a real problem, seeing as how “winning” is defined as “getting past the woman’s resistance”.
@lj4adotcomdan
“Where in our “culture”, besides maybe idiot MRA websites, do people believe that you cannot withdraw consent at any time? ”
some examples:
the discourse surrounding the Julian Assange trial:
http://video.feministing.com/2010/12/20/jaclyn-friedman-and-naomi-wolf-debate-assange/
or this:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2006/10/narrow-window-when-no-means-no.html
The most depressing part is this:
That speaks not so much volumes as encyclopedias.
@lj4adotcomdan
Here’s another personal example I’m going to give you about how our culture believes that consent cannot be withdrawn during sex.
When I had sex ed classes in junior high/high school, I remember learning many times that the “withdrawal” method for preventing pregnancy was not effective. What was the reasoning behind this? “because sex feels so good, you cannot reasonably expect a man to actually ‘stop’ in the middle of it.”
So basically, once a woman engages in sex, she cannot reasonably expect a man to stop. Her body is his until he ejaculates.
THAT is rape culture.
It’s less that rape culture is comprised of a bunch of things that rape victims have to deal with, and more that it’s comprised of a bunch of things saying that rape is okay (or at least totally understandable) in certain circumstances, and that a “perfect victim” looks like this (white, sober, attractive, female) and a “perfect rapist” looks like this (stranger, weapon, monstrous) and anything less than that isn’t “real rape.”
This isn’t true, though. This may be what you think is true, but if you do any research on what juries think, you’d see differently. Juries are random people pulled from society, and I’d say they represent well what society at large thinks. It’s very difficult to change jury members’ minds and make them see that just because someone has a girlfriend and a job, or the victim wasn’t bruised and was drunk, that a rape still could have happened. There is a reason that all these ideas are called rape myths. Myths are widely held and factually incorrect. You may be totally educated, well-read, and aware of the realities of rape, but most people are not.
I’m not linking to anything, since you don’t have time to read it, but please, if you want links on juror misconceptions, I’ve got plenty.
So maybe that’s one example, because it feeds into this idea that rape is something that happens between a bad guy/stranger and an innocent sober attractive woman. He just couldn’t help himself! Same with Tara and the British vampire who kidnapped her and raped her (although she had had sex with him willingly, previously). Of course, Jason was raped repeatedly by the werepanther women, and surprisingly called it “rape” and didn’t try to play it off as something that was awesome because what normal red-blooded male wouldn’t want to have sex with a bunch of women. And Sam’s girlfriend was raped by his brother, who shifted into him, which they didn’t deal with as rape at all.
And of course there are literally thousands of TV shows and movies that show Rape in one context (a stranger with a knife! bad!) and rape in a completely different context (she says no repeatedly and tells him to leave, he kisses her despite her trying to fight him off, finally she is seduced, and sex happens). Those small-r rapes are generally described in reviews as “love scenes.” And yet there’s no rape culture? Seeing this thousands of times doesn’t normalize it? There’s kind of a gross quote from Judd Apatow re. “Observe and Report,” where he’s describing writing the rape scene between Seth Rogen and a very intoxicated woman, and Apatow says, “I wanted to show the one thing that could happen that would make this OK,” and he comes up with the woman briefly regaining consciousness and saying “Don’t stop,” so Rogen cheerfully continues to rape her unconscious body. But that makes it OK. In Apatow’s mind, and in many, many others.
Please know that we’re talking about a culture, about a shared viewpoint, about common experiences. So if your argument is always going to be, “But those are just a bunch of examples of things, and not” — oh, I don’t know what you’re thinking would be really great evidence of a cultural theme — “and not a contractual agreement signed by everyone in the world” or “and not a class that we all take in junior high” or whatever, then I guess you’re not going to understand culture. But understand that even though the commenters here are pointing to 5, or 10, or 20 examples of things that contribute to or illustrate rape culture, the components of rape culture are virtually infinite. We just don’t have time to type out millions of examples for you.
@Bee: We just don’t have time to type out millions of examples for you.
And because, based on what he’s said here, he would reject all millions as individual quirks believed by some people not him and nobody he knows and still he would BELIEVE BELIEVE BELIEVE that no rape culture exists.
Because he’s so deep into denial and apologies about rape culture that it’s beginning to verge on creepy, plus he’s even worse than the majority of my first year students for seeing how different attitudes about sexualities, genders, and behaviors can connect, so denying that X is rape culture because it’s not literally about rape.
I’m just reading that Roosh site, and there’s tons of examples on there.
More examples for you, lj4adotcomdan:
“I met a Brazilian girl at a dinner party. We kissed quickly (no surprise), and then I made her a strong drink which sent her to the edge of unconsciousness. I escorted her home, weaseled my way into her room, and tried to get things going on the bed. Unfortunately she was too drunk, so it felt like I was trying to reanimate a corpse, but I didn’t care because I wanted to get laid. An American feminist would’ve considered my actions attempted rape, and I admit it was creepy as hell.”
From here: http://www.rooshv.com/theres-no-punishment-in-going-for-sex
Also, this just sprang to mind right now. An article titled “10 Ways to Fool a Sorority Girl into Bed” that was recently taken down because Jaclyn Friedman (author of “Yes Means Yes”) came across it and tweeted about it, and so a lot of feminists heard about it and clearly there was a lot of outrage. The article was actually from Oct 26, so it really says a lot about our culture that it didn’t get taken down until feminists actually found out about it and were outraged. But basically, the article gave advice on how frat boys can date rape a girl: feed her drink after drink at a party, until she’s too drunk to stand, and then lead her to your bedroom so that she can “lay down”. Then, rape her.
Even though the article has been taken down (I know there are screenshots somewhere, but can’t seem to find them), you can read the comments here. A lot of people don’t seem to think that feeding drinks to a girl until she’s too drunk to know what’s going on, and then leading her into your bedroom to have “sex” with her, is rape.
http://www.campusbasement.com/mizzou/maincampus/articles/3729/10-ways-to-fool-a-sorority-girl-into-bed
In that scenario, most people would blame the girl for drinking too much, rather than putting the blame where it actually belongs: the rapist.
Rape culture is excusing rapists’ behaviour, shrugging it off and saying “boys will be boys”
Holy shit.
“Rape Game: Used for when a girl is acting either difficult or prudish. Drag her to your place and tell her you’re going to have her way with her and there’s nothing she can do about it. Throw her on the bad, rip off her clothing, and do what you promised while ignoring her fake protests. With some girls you need to simulate rape conditions to get the bang, but be careful because rape game correlates highly to unprotected sex. The last thing a girl cares about when getting fantasy raped is using a condom. Also, you might want to use a fake name and safe house when running rape game in a Western country.”
– http://www.rooshv.com/16-different-types-of-game
HAHAHAHA, Ithiliana, welcome to the Regular Who Some Idiot Thinks is a Troll Because You Think They’re Full of Shit Club! We have cookies!
lj4adotcomdan, now I really think you’re dumb–almost as dumb as He Who Shall Not Be Named–he doesn’t believe in culture either.
Oh dear god, that Roosh guy is an awful, awful human being.
Stephanie: That reminds me of David Lisak’s interviews with undetected rapists — men on college campuses who had said, basically, that they had forced women to have sex with them, that they had had sex with women who were passed out or didn’t consent, without admitting to “rape.”
One of them talked about how he and his frat would invite freshman girls to their parties, make a really strong, sweet punch, encourage them to drink, and then take them to what was basically a “rape room” and have sex with them after they passed out or were too drunk to fight them off. It was totally premeditated! And encouraged! The guy recounting the tale was actually bragging about how he would plan this rape for a week, and how he’d pull it off.
@Bee
That’s sick. And lj4adotcomdan still doesn’t believe that there’s a rape culture.
RooshV has always been rapey, this is no surprise. It is in his name ffs (say it out loud a few times…it sounds like “roofie”).
Bee: I had to skip over much of your Tru Blood related post because I think you have some spoilers in there. (I am only halfway through season 2).
I guess the problem I am having, and some people just think I am an awful terrible person because I am daring to question people about it, is that many people here are saying that a majority of our culture agrees with those things and I do not see a majority of our culture agreeing with those things.
I am open to seeing it. I really am (even though some people want to insist that I do not mean the words that I actually say). That is why I ask questions. That is why I want to find out more. It is unfortunate that some people here just assume I am some vile woman hating anti-feminist MRA because I question one concept. But they call me the troll.
Stephanie: That IS sick. I have another sick story. I was going through freshman rush. I had chosen the fraternity I wanted to be a part of. This fraternity was basically a group of guys who were all friends who lived in a house. They consistently had the highest GPA on campus and they didn’t judge people for not drinking and not “scoring” as many “chicks” as possible. However, my school required me to to go at least 5 frats to make sure I made the “right” choice. I went to one for lunch and the guy pulls out a keychain with a whistle on it. The conversation between the two brothers went as follows.
Brother A: Hey man, why do you have a whistle on your key chain.
Brother B: I don’t know. I figured I would use it for our volleyball game on Friday. It is really loud. It is kinda like a rape whistle.
Brother A: What’s that. Do you blow it while you are raping a girl so you can’t hear her scream?
I asked them to just sign my card, I got out of there, and I never went near that house again.
I have told A LOT of people that story. Not one found it to be a funny joke and all were repulsed by it.
If our culture accepted such things, I would think that I would have at least gotten back some responses of people who found it funny or who saw no problem with what was said.
Now, if one was to say that our country has a rape subculture, I would probably agree. There is a sick and twisted subset of our culture who do not believe that all forms of legal rape are actually rape. They do believe things like what was said in groups like you cannot be raped by your husband or you cannot revoke consent. But to say that these people represent the culture as a whole, I am not there yet.
hellkell:
Considering Ithiniana has taken many of my comments out of context and has made many false assumptions about me, it is clear that Ithiliana is full of shit.
Ithiliana is more than welcome to prove me wrong and go read those posts I linked to.
stephanie:
I don’t wish to pry about your age, but how long ago were those sex ed classes? And in what area of the country did they take place in?
And how many sex ed classes do you believe teach that you cannot expect a man to stop in the middle of sex?
Yes, it is an HORRIBLE lesson to teach children. Every person should know that at any point any party involved as the right to stop because every person has the right to body autonomy.
@Hellkell: COOKIES! NOM NOM NOM! (imagine Cookie Monster munching down MONSTROUS GOOD COOKIES!!!!!!!).
Thank you!
@LJ4: You read the top five posts I linked to in my Rape Culture search, and I might consider reading some of yours.
There will be a quiz, first, though I warn you.
klopbop: Oh wow, I just read what you posted. Yes that was rape and yes he is a dangerous person because as others said, you do not know how many others he did that with. I am very sorry you had to go through that.
Ithiliana, you’re welcome, and your orientation packet is in the mail.