What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
I’m sorry, klopbop. That was rape. The blackout, the freezing, the lack of memories — that’s trauma. I’m sorry you experienced so much trauma.
I will say, although I totally agree with your assessment of what would happen if you reported him, I totally disagree that he’s not dangerous. I suspect that you’re not the only person he’s raped, or will rape. That said, it’s remarkably common for rape survivors not to report, and your primary focus has to be on helping yourself get through the trauma. Hugs if you want them.
klopbop, I’m so sorry.
Damn klopbop, I’m so sorry you had to go through such a thing 🙁
Hugs to klopbop. And yes, that’s definitely rape. Premeditated too, it sounds like.
I second Bee’s comment though – given how clearly manipulative his behavior was I’d be very surprised if you were his only victim.
lj4adotcomdan
“I know that there are many ways in which our system has failed victims of rape. But for it to be classified as a Rape Culture/Rape Society that would seem to be to require it to be purposeful instead of just flawed. ”
No. NO NO NO NO NO! IF THAT’S THE PROBLEM STOP RIGHT THERE. Many malignant social orders occur without any purpose or planning, and this is one of them. There’s a really, REALLY wonderful explanation of this here, as relates to rape (And I love it all the most CAUSE IT USES THE HAYEK! OMG! AND THE BROWNMILLER!)
Malignant Spontaneous Order. It’s all about no-purposeful, systematic flaws. Just… please, please read it, listen to it it’s one of my favoritest things ever. You can get it in zine form, blog post form, or youtube lecture form! I fangirl this so hard.
Will you please give it a chance and see how it can happen without anybody intending it? 🙂
http://radgeek.com/gt/2008/05/16/women_and/
BLOG POST
http://charleswjohnson.name/essays/women-and-the-invisible-fist/rpa-2010
PAPER, PDF
Just please, pretty please? I mean, I have seen with my own eyes that this argument has actually managed to get actual libertarian dudes who really weren’t bad sorts and honestly did have an open mind to stop worrying and love .. or hate… or accept the idea of Rape Culture.
klopblob. I am so sorry. *hugs*
[trigger warning: sexual assault]
klopblob, that is terrible and I’m sorry.
Earlier in this thread one of our resident MRA douches said that he “doesn’t see” rape culture, therefore it doesn’t exist. Well, part of it is this cultural idea that once a woman has sex with a man, he owns her body and she is unable to say no to him on subsequent occasions. Or, that even if she tells him “I do not want penetration” but fools around with him, that it’s not rape if he ignores her request and penetrates her.
Yes, people get to say how far they are willing to go, and if the partner goes beyond that line, it is rape. Yes, a person gets to withdraw consent once it’s been given. And if the partner ignores that, it is rape. For example, in the first episode of the television series Shameless (both the US and UK versions), the main character is an alcoholic ne’er do well who latches on to a neighbor woman once he finds out that she gets Social Security payments for her agoraphobia. He does this by clumsily “seducing” her, only to find out once they get into the bedroom that her kink is to use a gigantic dildo on her lovers. But he doesn’t find this out until after she’s already tied him up. He clearly doesn’t consent to it, but she rapes him with the dildo anyway. And in the next scene he’s shown in physical pain. There’s a similar storyline with the brother on the show Weeds. It’s not funny; it’s assault.
I use that example to show that feminists do actually apply these rules of consent to *everyone*. Everyone has the right to stop and to say no. Anyone who ignores that request is a rapist.
NWO [email protected]:
Please provide a cite for this either from the FBI or a reputable news source. I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere that the term ‘consent’ has been dropped from the FBI definition.
Sorry about my last post folks. It’s late and I’m ill.
NWO [email protected]:
“@Bee
Fine schpeil there, except the word “consent” is not listed in the FBI definition. Consent now has nothing to do with rape. Removal of the word force means even sex that is consented to can be considered rape on the say-so of a woman. Oddly enough all women really aren;t paragons of virtue.”
Heaven only knows how you came to that conclusion. It’s still quite common for perpetrators to use other methods of coercion than force, dropping the term “force” simply recognizes that and allows rapes using blackmail, drugs, threats and duress to be recognized as rapes. It’s the victim’s freely given and informed consent that is the issue here, not whether the rapist beat the crap out of them in order to subdue them.
“Say 1/10th of 1% of women are screwed up enough, vengeful enough, or just need some sort of excuse to take advantage of this new definition. In a nation of 190 million women that means in a year as many as 190,000 men could possibly be falsely accused, lose their jobs, be ostracized by society, some beat up or killed by white knights, and so on. Every year. I know they’re only men but what the hell? Toss in a little preponderance of evidence and we got us one serious problem.”
The “preponderance of evidence” pertains to one college policy, not to either state or federal law. It’s just a red herring you’ve thrown in there in an attempts to obfuscate the matter. Even if the plaintif was lying s/he would still have to convince a jury and in a he said/she said kind of trial the victim would need to actually be able to provide evidence. Men don’t just get locked up on za woman’s word. Last time I checked the American legal system still propounded the presumption of innocence and due process.
What is this thing about NWOSlave having a thing for children? I’m new here so I’m just trying to catch up. Does he really?
Every time age of consent comes up as a topic of conversation, he starts talking about how much of an injustice it is that men can be punished for having Completely! Consensual! sex with a fourteen year old.
Of course, adults would also be punished for letting a fourteen year old drive or providing them with beer or cigarettes. There are plenty of things that adults have a responsibility under the law to stop fourteen year olds from doing. But I guess refraining from fucking a fourteen year old who dresses all slutty (a term he refuses to define) is different somehow.
(Trigger warning for underage horror)
Seraph: I’ve seen other MRAs openly argue that the age of consent should be lowered to 12 because girls are “sexually mature” and able to “accommodate a penis” then. The lack of empathy is staggering.
Manbooberz-
Just a quick question for y’all…
Do you think some PUA’s like Roosh V are bordering on rape?
Here’s a link to one of his “lay reports”….
http://www.rooshv.com/i-dont-want-you-to-get-raped
This is why I took offense when people suggest I sound like an MRA. That is just disgusting.
@Seraph
Wow. His ideas about feminism are laughable, but that is just disgusting.
I take it I am being lumped in that group. I am absolutely a feminist. That I am not agreement with one label of our culture does not make me unsupportive of all other feminist ideas about rape.
“I’ve seen other MRAs openly argue that the age of consent should be lowered to 12 because girls are “sexually mature” and able to “accommodate a penis” then. The lack of empathy is staggering.”
Oh my god. When I was 12 I was not “sexually mature”, and I would have been horrified if I heard that some grown man was thinking about me like that.
lj4adotcomdan: Well, not everyone who align themselves with men’s rights say stuff like that. Some people who fight for men’s rights are feminists too.
Sadly, the whole underage girl thing is pretty common on MRA blogs, though.
stonerwithaboner: All I get when I click that link is a YouTube video? But I’ve read some of Roosh’s posts before, and yes, some of his “lay reports” border on “rape reports”. I vaguely recall one post where I talk about penetrating someone while they were still asleep (after a one-night stand). He also seems to care nothing about pleasuring his sexual partners and brags about never giving head. Sounds like a real catch.
LJ4: I am absolutely a feminist.
AHAHAHAHAHAH.
*sporfles*
Yeah, you and Sarah Palin, baby.
Question to all: NWO has made it clear that he has – as Kyrie pointed out – an Old Testament view of rape: if the victim (who can be a man, NWO) isn’t beaten badly enough (“enough” to be decided by him) or physically wrestled down and penetrated, and if they don’t fight back enough (see above), then it doesn’t count as rape. Counting anything that doesn’t put the victim in the hospital as rape just opens the door to a flood of false rape accusations. With that in mind, are we continuing to argue with him and provide examples of how, yes, other things count as rape (thanks for your courage, klopbop) for it’s own sake, or to educate the lurkers?
Bee: I am not ignoring the other things. I have said that I will go read them. I cannot promise I will get them read by today or tomorrow though. So some of those points are going to have to wait.
There are people in our society who blame the accuser and/or who think absurd things like a person who was raped might have enjoyed any of it. That is without a doubt. That is also wrong of those people to do. But I am not sure that enough people do that to justify the labeling of our culture as a “rape culture”
What I am seeing, and perhaps with more research I will prove myself wrong (and perhaps not) is that there is a patchwork of horrible things that victims of rape have had to deal with in this country. That patchwork is being used to form a “quilt” to cover the country under the label that a rape culture exists. But when I glanced over the first link given to me, several of the “patches” I saw in that link specifically had nothing to do with rape (even tangentially). Those patches may still be bad (like not protecting people who are not “straight” with equal protection under the law). To me, that makes the “quilt” not one of a “rape culture” but something different.
Does that mean I believe the patches should not be fixed? No. The problems like rape kits not being processed or inadequate training on the part of police officers on how to best handle people who are accusing others of rape should still be fixed.
Mind you, I fully believe that educating the lurkers is a perfectly good reason to keep going. I just don’t understand why some of y’all are trying to explain how consent works to him as if we’re using the same language.
When discussing politics with conservatives (either when I call in to conservative radio shows or when I debate conservatives on the internet) I never expect to change the mind of the person with whom I am speaking. The points being made are almost always meant to educate others who might be listening and/or reading who have not made up their minds yet on the issue at hand so they can see why the person I am arguing with as wrong. If I am arguing with a birther, I never expect them to admit Obama was born a citizen of this country and as such is a natural born citizen qualified to be our President. But I put the arguments out there so others can hear why the birther is wrong. When I debate the health care bill, I never expect a conservative to get why the mandate is really just a tax and that if we eliminate pre-existing condition clauses that mandates are needed to prevent anti-selection. But I put those arguments out there so other people who have not made up their minds on the issue can understand these things.
Anybody who thinks that NWO will change his mind because someone will give him a euphoric moment of clarity is delusional. However, responding to him is still important because such dangerous points should never be left unchallenged. It is also important so that lurkers can see not only why he is wrong but how they can deal with others who make such absurd claims in the future.
ithiliana: Sarah Palin is a moron.
I want to educate you on some of my other blog posts. Actually, much like NWO I think you are also the actual troll here so I doubt you will read them. But for the benefit of others who have some sort of character.
Here are two posts with the specific label of “women” from my main political blog: http://blog.lj4a.com/category/women/ (I am sure there are many others that could have gotten the tag, not sure why I only tagged those two)
Here are some posts I made about abortion rights on my blog: http://blog.lj4a.com/category/national-issues/abortion/
Here are some blog posts I made about Sarah Palin: http://blog.lj4a.com/category/sarah-palin/
Again, I don’t expect ithiliana to read any of that. Trollers gotta troll. But for anyone else who might question my support of feminist ideas, give those blog posts a look.
Blitzgal: I am assuming you are referring to me as the MRA douche since I do not believe that we have a rape culture. Right?
Yes, I currently deny that a rape culture exists because I believe a supermajority of people in this country rejects those things you just said. There is no “cultural idea” that a man owns a woman once they have sex and that they can never say no. SOME people believe that, but it is not a cultural idea. There is no “cultural idea” that a woman cannot fool around without consenting to penetration. SOME people believe that. It is not a cultural idea. Most people within our culture would call anyone who thinks those things are ok a bunch of assholes.
Where in our “culture”, besides maybe idiot MRA websites, do people believe that you cannot withdraw consent at any time?
And I reject the idea that because something happens on TV that it is part of our “culture”. I was watching Tru Blood the other day. Sookie almost got raped. That is not proof we live in a rape culture because it took a fictional vampire to step in and stop her.