How to get 800 upvotes on Reddit: Offer an evo-psych explanation of why vaginas are icky, preferably including the phrase “wet hole.” Here, watch a master at work:
Well, that proves it. It’s SCIENCE!
We Hunted The MammothBucking the Backlash
We Hunted The MammothHow to get 800 upvotes on Reddit: Offer an evo-psych explanation of why vaginas are icky, preferably including the phrase “wet hole.” Here, watch a master at work:
Well, that proves it. It’s SCIENCE!
You can go fuck yourself with that comment.
You know, I don’t know many feminists who have anything against tattoos and piercings
A blatant misunderstanding of the objection. Feminists protest the cultural narrative that women only exist to be attractive (a narrative that is intimitely connected to your above comment about “weiner receptacles”), and so are required to jump through a myriad of hoops to suit men’s preferences. Men, of course, are not required to go through such pains to suit women’s preferences.
The double standard is not “men have different standards of grooming than women”. The double standard is that women are pressured to adhere to cultural standards of grooming, or else risk shaming and mockery, and men experience no such pressure.
I don’t expect everyone to accept me exactly as I choose to be. I DO expect people to not be assholes if they are not attracted to my body
That’s starting to change. And this time I don’t think it’s porn that’s to blame — although those guys are hairless these days, too. But even guys on basic television programs and movies have waxed chests. Don’t see much of the Burt Reynolds look anymore.
The expectation of complete female hairlessness appears to be amongst younger men — middle aged guys don’t give a shit, in my experience. They might appreciate some sort of trimming, but they don’t need things to be completely bare. And some of them think it’s creepy.
Also, there are basic physical traits that men feel social pressure to emulate — washboard abs, full head of hair, the right amount of body hair (no back hair, no sweater vests). Clearly Nom has no problem with women who reject men on the basis of back hair or baldness. After all, “you can’t expect everyone else to accept you exactly as you choose to be.”
In principle I think it’s fine to reject people on the basis of any physical trait that you don’t find attractive. The only cases in which that becomes problematic is those in which the person refuses to accept that other people have the right to be equally picky in return.
Cassandra: Or when people refuse to acknowledge that they’re might be other people who don’t care about the certain traits or, actually, may find them attractive (which I think you’re implying).
Personally, I find people of all levels of body hair from hairless to Sasquatch equally attractive…
But yeah. “I don’t want to fuck Ozy, because zie has hairy armpits” is fine. “Ozy shouldn’t have hairy armpits because hairy armpits are gross” is not fine. “Alice is not allowed to not want to fuck me because of my hairy armpits, because guys shouldn’t have to worry about that” is even more not fine. #2 and #3 combined approaches the Not Fine Singularity.
But I got to be a picky Pickerson, I guess 🙂
That too! Like MRAL’s constant rants about height. I know some women who actively prefer short guys, because they are tiny themselves. My friend R, who is 4ft10, does not want to be dating men over 6ft tall. “All women/men like/dislike X” is almost always a factually incorrect statement.
I do think it’s a male entitlement thing, that inability to comprehend the idea that’s one’s preferences are not univeral. What’s funny is that it even extends to people’s ideas about what other men like. But for sure, it’s a guy thing.
Like for me, part of the reason I don’t want a Pittclone is that he’s too muscly for me. If I was to put together a list of the 10 hottest men on earth, in my opinion, not one of them would be over 150 pounds. And yet I am quite able to understand that many other women do not share my preferences, and most women are totally OK with dating men more heavyset than the ones I prefer. This “oh hey, I am not the cosmos” attitude seems to elude a lot of men, especially if they’re really sexist.
I just found this site a couple days ago, and have been perusing through the posts…and wow, I mean I used to think that MRAs were just misguided and had a strange, inverted view of power… but now I think they are absolute jokes. The kind of crap that comes out of their mouths is making me LOL (literally).
Exactly!
Dude, you shouldn’t say “exactly” until you gain the ability to understand what people are talking about.
And do you shave your nads?
So … yeah. It’d be cool if there were some kind of continuity between this general statement:
And the one that agreed wholeheartedly with:
It seems like … Frenchy kinda wants to agree that he can be picky and other people also can be picky, but in his mind everyone has to be picky about wanting a partner with no pubic hair. There kinda seems to be no acceptance of the fact that different people find different things of things sexy — and that’s okay.
Also,
Yeah, do you, Frenchy?
I personally am not a huge fan of a lot of body hair (of course, as a bi person, it is worth noting that women by and large have far less of it on average). I second what other said, the issue isn’t a personal preferrence in your partners, but that you standardize it/enforce it against everyone. “I prefer people without beards” is not the equivalent of “people with beards are repulsive and hideous and no one will ever want them”.
I think we’re allowed to have preferences. One thing that hasn’t really been said in this thread is: there is a female sex organ whatever you might call it which is a constant within porn which mra’s live on as a replacement for real sex . The same guys who think it is icky are also jerking off it in one way or another to actually hopefully somewhat normal porn sex.
The problem with the internet is, if you want to view gang bang rape porn it’s just a click away isn’t it? You could get in trouble if the woman or child is under-aged, Not so likely unless you are a politician. it’s a bit like going 70 in a 60 zone. As long as it’s legal you don’t have an issue dude.
Dude.. you can legally view gang rape on some drugged out chick online and jerk off. Congratulations.
I was sent a video of two asian girls taking ells or some kind of snakes up the ass a few years ago as a enema. They were so drugged it’s pretty much been an image that makes concerned about the world consent. There is no way that these girls made this eel/anal porno without digress. The world can be a sick place.
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Kavette, what do you want to do? Ban porn, like feminists groups want to do it in Norway?
It’s not legal to produce porn showing real rape, I don’t know if it’s legal to possess it, certainly not in the UK.
Regarding the eel porn, please, 99.99% of porn is not such a bizarre stuff, it’s internet sensationalism and websites like ED, that make it seem as if such stuff were common, it’s probably one single clip that is going around for years and spread to everyone.
Porn with simulated rape is scary, of course, but the sad truth is that this is just the symptom. For whatever reason sexual fantasies with elements of violence are pretty common. That seems pretty sick to me, but what can you do against it?
That would not solve the problem of women and children being exploited in order to produce this kind of thing. It could possibly make it worse because it drives the entire industry underground.
But yeah, it’s a symptom of a sick culture when 14 year old runaways are picked up by pimps to be doped up and forced into prostitution just like it’s a symptom of a sick culture that others are forced into porn. As Kavette said, in some of the videos it’s pretty clear that the young women are either not fully aware of what’s going on, or are outrightly disgusting by what they’re doing and don’t want to be there. Very unsexy.
Although someone told me that there’s a whole genre of fake rape porn in which the woman is only pretending to not be into it. I don’t know if that’s better or worse — on the one hand, the woman is probably consenting if she’s just acting. On the other hand, we live in a culture where rape porn is necessary because there’s a market for it.
It seems to me that these guys are choosing women with poor feminine hygiene.
@Aeris (blitzgal):
Where is the evidence that this is caused by culture? Sexual preferences are especially resistant to cultural influences. Also, don’t you know how common violent sexual fantasies are (and that’s even true for women)?
These mra’s give women too much credit. Hell, they make it seem like women have some kind of special powers over the world. If this world is run by men as they like to say, how in the hell women are to blame for everything? The government is mostly run by men and I got to ask these mrs’s how is it that American women was so tricky as to get all these men running our country to give them special treatment? It makes no sense. No offense to you women because I love ya’ll, but the these mra men give women too much power. Seems to me the mra are too lazy to see that the whole freaking world got a set of problems to bitch about and they aint’ the only ones with a bag of complaints.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Nature and nurture are inextricably linked, but do not pretend that rape is completely a biological imperative. It would make no sense for a highly social animal like mankind to depend on rape for procreative purposes, not when we depend so much on cooperation for our survival.
Here’s a link you all might be interested in about evolutionary arguments about women’s attractiveness to men, waist-to-hip-ratio in particular:
http://psychsciencenotes.blogspot.com/2010/09/brief-rant-about-waist-to-hip-ratio.html
The comments are pretty good as well– they break down the difference between “average reported preference for an imaginary female partner” and “ideal woman” (one of which is a description about men’s preferences as an aggregate, which is OK and scientifically useful, and the other of which is a normative judgment, which is neither). They also have a good discussion of what “universal” means in psychology and why it’s tricky to declare any human trait universal.
Lian Li wrote: “Sexual preferences are especially resistant to cultural influences.”
It depends on what you mean by sexual preferences. I’m probably one of the oldest commenters here and when I became sexually active in the late 70s, there wasn’t the push for women to shave their pubic hair that there is now. Maybe most men really wanted women to shave, but I never saw or heard of it. Legs and arm pits, yes, pubic hair, no.
When I read on a blog’s comments that a young college woman went to her GYN and the GYN commented favorably on her not shaving off her pubic hair because so many of her young patients do, I have to think that things have changed quite a bit.
That said, if people want to shave, that’s certainly their right and I don’t think they’re less of a feminist if they do.
FWIW, I like body and facial hair on men and wouldn’t expect my partner to shave unless he wanted to. I do prefer beards or clean shaven to beard stubble, but that’s because my skin is very sensitive and stubble burns.
Oh and here’s a good one taking down some stuff about the adaptiveness of rape: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/evolutionary-psychology-for-the-masses/
And PZ Myers’ take on the same article: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/01/the_evolution_of_rape.php
I wouldn’t throw out evolutionary psychology entirely– I’d personally be surprised if we *didn’t* have any evolved psychological “mechanisms” or whatever. The real reason why a lot of evo psych fails is that it often never bothers to justify its hypotheses by actually going out and finding out whether people with X trait are more fecund than people with Y trait instead or whatever. It’s more like: “let’s do some interviews with undergrads. do they agree??? ok, sounds plausible!”
Here’s another great summary of some of the empirical failures (rather than just moral failures) of the most MRA-ish claims of evo psych:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/06/19/why-do-we-rape-kill-and-sleep-around.html
The major problem I see with EvPsch is the complete lack of testability, combined with a very narrow set of baseline assumptions; which all tend to be on the order of, “this cultural behavior must have a deep-seated evolutionary cause.”
It’s not that psych can’t be tested, it’s that projecting culture to the past fails; and can’t be tested.