Dating can be tough. It can be especially tough if your personality is a mixture of petulance and insecurity. And even tougher if you think you can argue someone who’s not interested in you into a second date with an angry, accusatory, sometimes hilarious, sometimes deeply unsettling 1600-word email. And no, I’m not speaking hypothetically here.
The email in question, written by a young investment banker named Mike to an unfortunate woman named Lauren after one less-than-great date, was posted on Reddit a couple of days ago, and has already gotten a lot of internetty attention, but some of you may not have seen it, so I thought I’d give it a little fisking anyway. Settle in; it’s going to be a long and bumpy ride. (Note: What follows below is most of the email; I’ve cut out a few passages here and there.)
Hi Lauren,
I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.
Well, we’re off to a not-so-good start. Perhaps she is, as they say, just not that into you?
FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email.
Gosh, I wonder why Lauren didn’t get back to him.
By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.
Google-stalking – always a nice touch. There’s no better way to charm a nice lady than by tracking down her personal information online.
I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.
Uh, what? She’s ignoring you, dude. She doesn’t want to go out with you. Seems to me she’s sending you a pretty unmixed message here.
Should she have responded to your voicemail and/or texts? In an ideal world, perhaps, but she may have sensed that you’d react precisely how you’re reacting now, and didn’t want to have anything more to do with your creepy, entitled bullshit.
And now Mike the banker makes his, er, “case” for why she should go on a second date with him:
Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:
-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.
You were flirting!! Hair-twirling = sex! If you don’t realize it you can google search it!!!
-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.
Eye contact is an Indicator of Interest. IOI! IOI! If you didn’t want to bear my children why did you look at me, with your eyes????
-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.
Well, not really. This is what people say to be polite at the end of a disappointing date, when they don’t want to see you again. If she wanted to see you again, she would have said something about making plans for a second date.
-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.
We had a conversation! You did not flee in horror! Therefore you must have my babies!!!
In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.
And sending someone who clearly wants nothing to do with you a long, creepy, accusatory tirade is polite?
Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship.
Dude, you do understand that she has to actually like you too in order for there to be a relationship?
I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.
You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.
Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you.
Gain utility? Really? DATING IS NOT MICROECONOMICS!
In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.
Well, banker dude. You’re getting some feedback now. All over the internet.
If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind. In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.
So your argument is that she should go out with you, even though she doesn’t want to go out with you, because life isn’t perfect and you’re probably the best she really deserves?
Way to sell yourself, dude.
If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.
Well, she’s not really responsible for you thinking that every woman who twirls her hair in your presence wants to have your babies.
We have a number of things in common.
Oh dear, sounds like we’ve got another “logical” argument coming up here.
I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part.
Um, what?
I have no clever remark to make here, other than that Lauren is probably going to have to avoid going to the Philharmonic ever again, on the off chance she might run into banker Mike.
According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age.
YOU ARE RIGHT AGE. INTERNET SAYS SO. THEREFORE YOU MUST DATE ME.
I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common.
Also, you both require oxygen to live. Lauren, can’t you see that you and banker Mike are soulmates?
I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.
Banker Mike: You said you wanted feedback. Here is some feedback. She was apparently not horrified by your physical appearance. It may be your horrible personality that needs some work.
Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.
You’re fighting a losing battle here, dude. Just as you cannot argue someone into liking you, you cannot argue someone into being impressed that you manage your parents’ money.
In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.
And I’m the Queen of Denmark.
That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you.
Oy. As if this email wasn’t stalkerish enough already.
I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.)
This last bit I have no trouble believing.
I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens.
I suspect that Lauren has already played out various scenarios in her head already, and that none of them end well.
Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too.
So now you’re being noble and “open minded” for trying to pressure a woman who wants nothing to do with you into a second date?
If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.
Now you’re just making my skin crawl.
I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.
Here’s a solution, dude: How about she never goes on another date with you, ever. Then you won’t ever have to worry about her being late ever again.
If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.
I hope you find the feedback that the internet has now provided you to be helpful.
If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals).
Now we’re back on this again.
In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.
Damn you, foul strumpet, and your devious hair-playing ways! Google it! GOOGLE IT!!!
I would like to talk to you on the phone.
I think you’ve pretty much guaranteed that this will never, ever happen.
Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.
Not much to misinterpret here, Mike. You’ve made it absolutely crystal clear that you’re an undateable creep.
Let me be serious for a moment. Forget about Lauren. Hell, forget about women in general for a while, and work on yourself. Get some therapy; you can afford it. Work through your bitterness, your petulance, your highly unattractive mixture of entitlement and insecurity. Stop being a “Nice Guy” and learn to be genuinely nice.
And don’t ever, ever, ever write another email like this one.
@Lian Li, no one is saying bitterness and misery are an unavoidable result of having trouble finding a sexual or romantic partner. We are responding to the actual bitterness and misery being presented by people like SexBots.
As far as “perpetually dateless,” that is directed at those who have already declared that they have not been able to get a date, but who claim it is the fault of women for being so terrible as to not sleep with them. It’s not a matter of making someone feel bad for not dating – many of the other commenters here are single, and nobody’s jumping up and down to condemn them for it – but an a response to the suggestion that their problem is caused by women externally, rather than themselves internally.
I can’t roll my rs worth a damn, which is so embarrassing as a former French Immersion student.
My r’s used to make my French teacher roll her eyes. I just can’t do them properly.
It’s weird that you’re saying that “it’s possible to have a life that is more than bitterness and misery” is single-shaming and would make you feel insecure. Really? You really think that? If so, I would suggest that you need to reassess something in your own life that would make you feel conflicted about this statement. I mean, can you understand that someone saying “it’s possible to have a life that is more than bitterness and misery” is not saying “Why don’t you get married.a girlfriend/laid, you worthless … ” whatever?
People can be bitter and miserable and married. It totally happens, I swear to you.
People can be happy and satisfied and not partnered. Again, this is on my honor the honest to god’s truth.
However, if I said (and I did) that Frenchy was complaining about how women have the upper hand in dating and should be forced into arranged marriages so that men have the upper hand and all men will have partners (which is false) because that’s something his miserable brain told him to explain his inability to attract a date, this was meant to be an assault on him, a person who complains about women and makes up stories about how his feelings are hurt because women have some autonomy to ask men out, reject them, flirt, etc. This was not meant to be an assault on all single people everywhere. You seem to have taken it this way, and I apologize for that. Please know that I’m not going to follow you around and taunt you for your datelessness repeatedly, as you suggest, and I in fact wish you every happiness, whether single, partnered, in a loving poly family, as a doll-collector, or whatever life brings you.
All of what I described above would be normal and not missing a darn thing.
I hope, however, that even if you don’t find the exact thing that you want, you do not blame all of womankind, feminism, and any strides women have made over the last century, for this gap in perfection. Because that would make you an asshole.
zhinxy: I was in the military. I learned all sorts of tone to the use of sir.
Cassandra: I didn’t find russian grammar, per se, all that difficult; what gave me fits was some of the ways in which that grammar was (or wasn’t) explained.
As to english grammar, it has the difficulty of having different structures,and parallel structure, and some very streamline aspects which are supporting some really subtle aspects.
And it’s a positional language, which allows for changes in position to deal with subtleties of meaning; and it has a huge vocabulary, which also gets used to deal with subtleties of meaning.
Doesn’t Russian present similar challenges vis-à-vis an enormous vocabulary?
@ Wetherby: Without reading the rest of the thread, yes. Russian is an enormous language, compared to most others. Add in the grammar and flexive sentence structure and it’s one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn.
However, I do know about 10 different ways to call someone a dumbfuck in Russian, which is kind of… interesting?
Has anyone else experienced alphabet bleed? Sometimes I’ve accidentally started writing English or Latin with a Cyrillic alphabet…
A possible tip for those who want to learn how to roll their Rs: try doing it while singing before you try doing it in speech. I found it a lot easier, and once I’d mastered sung rolled Rs, spoken ones came shortly thereafter. (Also, when trying to learn, always lead with a vowel sound, preferably an “ah,” before the R – i.e. sing “arra” instead of “ra.” Rolled Rs are easier with a lead-in.)
Polliwog: I’d just end up talking like a pirate all day. All. Effing. Day.
Polliwog: I’d just end up talking like a pirate all day. All. Effing. Day.
…is that meant to be a downside? Because it sounds more like a perk to me, matey. Yaaarrrrr! 😉
Kathleen: then train yourself during Talk like a pirate Day. ^_^
@ Ozy – Not so much alphabet bleed, but I sometimes use words from one language while speaking in another and don’t notice until people start to look at me funny.
@Bee:
Yes I understand that, but the context that made it very clear how it was meant.
I think that I feel much happier when I’m single, I can extrapolate that from a lot of experiences. It still makes me insecure when somebody writes such stuff, don’t know why. Here you can find many articles and posts which are mocking “MGTOW”, and too many of them have a tone like “what a miserable life they lead”, “they avoid relationships with women but haha they give them boners haha”, terms like “disobedient penis”, which are also an insinuation that men can’t control their sex drive and how extremely difficult (bordering on impossible) it is for some men to live without women.
I don’t do anything like that, but don’t you think that to be envious of a group one doesn’t belong to is a very common emotion? Is that already enough to qualify as an asshole? Even on this site you can read claims that there “there are also a few female incels”, which means “a lot less”, now, if somebody like ‘Monsieur sans nom’ reads that, what will he think? Perhaps “I was right after all!”…? Statistical differences between groups can be very real, and envy is a common emotion, only a few people are free of it, maybe it’s better to accept that (I think at least in extreme cases you would probably agree with me, if a third worlder is angry, bitter and envious of the people in Switzerland isn’t that a bit understandable? Certainly he’s not an asshole and also it doesn’t help much to point out that there are surely some Swiss people who suffer bitter hardships).
Also I don’t think “gap in perfection” is the right term, it’s probably much more for a lot of people. If for example you are forbidden to have the relationship or the sex you want by pain of death, like gays in Iran, many people wouldn’t just describe that as a “gap in perfection”, they can just live with.
I know a lot of men who are single and happy about it. Some of them are my friends.
None of them spend their time writing hateful screeds online about how they’ve dropped out of dating because Western women are spoiled by teh feminizts.
That’s why I do feel confident in saying the MGTOW are leading a bitter, miserable life.
You understand that every single bit of that is based on stuff that MGTOW themselves write about themselves, right?
This actually isn’t analogous to an American MGTOW (or single misogynist, no matter whether he identifies as MGTOW or not) who has decided that he hates all American women, though.
You’re right. I was generally talking about people in the West, in particular, about straight cis misogynistic men in the West. If you are LGBTQ and in Iran or another country where you cannot partner without fear of death, I apologize, and I am very sorry for your situation, because that is horrible.
“I don’t do anything like that, but don’t you think that to be envious of a group one doesn’t belong to is a very common emotion? Is that already enough to qualify as an asshole? … (I think at least in extreme cases you would probably agree with me, if a third worlder is angry, bitter and envious of the people in Switzerland isn’t that a bit understandable? Certainly he’s not an asshole and also it doesn’t help much to point out that there are surely some Swiss people who suffer bitter hardships).”
…..Simon is back?
@Bee:
Yes, but it’s a question how you will interpret this. You could either say, that what they say is just an exaggeration (which could be true!) or you could say that it’s a proof how difficult, bordering on impossible, it is for some men to consciously control their libido. Of course in case of the MGTOWs there are clearly other solutions than controlling their libido, but sometimes there aren’t. At least it’s not something I find even remotely funny (more like scary).
Why not?
And how can somebody decide to hate women?
And where would you draw the line? Is it already evil and abnormal to be a bit envious of women?
I thought that you were talking about me, maybe I am straight and cis, but I am definitely not misogynistic.
But why is that so horrible – it is totally excessive, of course! But to be horrible it just has to seriously lower your quality of life. I think for example that smoking weed is pretty harmless and shouldn’t be illegal, but I also think that a life without weed is perfectly liveable and enjoyable so it’s not a ‘horrible oppression’ that it is criminalized.
@CassandraSays:
Who is Simon?
So, once again, if someone on a MGTOW site says, “I hate Western women because they give me boners and I refuse to treat women like actual people, but I am mad that women don’t want to be in relationships with me,” I think it’s OK to acknowledge that this is a strange and utterly mockable viewpoint.Just because I’m a woman, it’s not my job to help them get over their fear of women.
It’s only analogous to a person who believes that, as the Swiss have a better quality of life, more money, better health care, etc. than the average person living in Sierra Leone, so do women have more pussy than men, and thus men would be right to be jealous of women’s monopoly on pussy. That’s just a fucked up point of view. Do you think this? Do I have to explain why this is fucked up?
Hint: This is not something I have. This is my body.
How would someone decide to hate women? I dunno, are you suggesting that no one hates women? Or that no one decides to hate women — that it’s just natural?
Why is it horrible that two people who love each other cannot show their feelings toward each other without fear of death? I mean, look — I totally agree that marijuana should be legalized, but this is not even in the same ballpark as the kind of discrimination against homosexuals that’s going on in, say. Uganda. If you can prove that a desire to smoke pot is something that one is born with, and that a desire to smoke pot is analogous to one’s sexual orientation, and that the punishment for smoking pot is death, maybe you have a point.
I dunno. Is the punishment for smoking pot death, where you live?
Who is Simon?
Precisely what Simon would say!
If Simon is a different user here I can assure you that I am not him.
Not that it would matter. CassandraSays doesn’t like me for because I’m boring, so it doesn’t surprise me if she continues with such silly posts.
If Simon is some funny insider codeword here you might enlighten me?
Of course, but the point was, that we’re making fun of an uncontrollable libido and other threatening behavior.
In all analogies that I use (and most people use) the original thesis A is compared against a very exaggerated and extreme thesis B, otherwise the analogy wouldn’t be clear and we might not have a consensus about B. Now the important thing about analogies is that while thesis A and B are very different in both the same reasoning is used. That’s how analogies mostly work. Probably you know the teapot analogy, I think it was mentioned in this thread. It would not be a good rebuttal to say “How can you compare God with a teapot, is that analogous to you?”, because that totally misses the point, the goal of the analogy was to show the flaw in the reasoning of “I might not be able to prove God’s existence, but you cant disprove it!”.
I don’t understand that at all. The examples where people are envious of others are uncountable, and can also involve something else than their property, as their body (like beauty, youth) or their intelligence. If a cleaner in a university feels a bit envious sometimes, that others are gifted with more intelligence, is he an asshole? I just think some issues can never be resolved.
Just because it’s not decided it doesn’t mean that it’s natural. Dependent on ones experiences and character a person can develop different beliefs. I doubt anybody sits in his chair and thinks “Ok, I just think I might now start to hate women!” (because then he already hated them).
Also, for example, people with depression (which is classified as a disorder and so not “natural” or physiological) often believe they are worthless and they certainly don’t consciously decide to feel worthless.
The problem is: What exactly is horrible? That the Ugandan government wants to punish harmless behavior or the situation of homosexuals in Uganda? It can’t be the latter, because they could simply chose not to break the law which is perfectly possible, it might be sad, but not horrible, that is a word I reserve for something else.
I lived in Singapore for quite a while and, yes that was nearly the case. OK, the death penalty only for a huge amount like a couple of ounces. But long prison sentences for very small quantities.
“That the Ugandan government wants to punish harmless behavior or the situation of homosexuals in Uganda? It can’t be the latter, because they could simply chose not to break the law which is perfectly possible, it might be sad, but not horrible, that is a word I reserve for something else.”
Go fuck yourself. If death penalty for having sex (or display affection, I don’t think kisses fly under the radar) with a consenting person is not bad enough to be qualified of horrible, nothing short of genocide must be then.
Not smoking weed won’t hurt you at all.
A lifetime denying and/or hiding your identity and any of your feeling of love is horrible.
Why is it so horrible not to have sex or to express your feelings of love?