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How to creep out the entire internet, lovelorn banker edition

Try dressing as a nun. Then maybe he'll go away.

Dating can be tough. It can be especially tough if your personality is a mixture of petulance and insecurity. And even tougher if you think you can argue someone who’s not interested in you into a second date with an angry, accusatory, sometimes hilarious, sometimes deeply unsettling 1600-word email. And no, I’m not speaking hypothetically here.

The email in question, written by a young investment banker named Mike to  an unfortunate woman named Lauren after one less-than-great date, was posted on Reddit a couple of days ago, and has already gotten a lot of internetty attention, but some of you may not have seen it, so I thought I’d give it a little fisking anyway. Settle in; it’s going to be a long and bumpy ride. (Note: What follows below is most of the email; I’ve cut out a few passages here and there.)

Hi Lauren,

I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.

Well, we’re off to a not-so-good start. Perhaps she is, as they say, just not that into you?

FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email.

Gosh, I wonder why Lauren didn’t get back to him.

By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.

Google-stalking – always a nice touch. There’s no better way to charm a nice lady than by tracking down her personal information online.

I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.

Uh, what? She’s ignoring you, dude. She doesn’t want to go out with you. Seems to me she’s sending you a pretty unmixed message here.

Should she have responded to your voicemail and/or texts? In an ideal world, perhaps, but she may have sensed that you’d react precisely how you’re reacting now, and didn’t want to have anything more to do with your creepy, entitled bullshit.

And now Mike the banker makes his, er, “case” for why she should go on a second date with him:

Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:

-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.

You were flirting!! Hair-twirling = sex! If you don’t realize it you can google search it!!!

-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.

Eye contact is an Indicator of Interest. IOI! IOI! If you didn’t want to bear my children why did you look at me, with your eyes????

-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.

Well, not really. This is what people say to be polite at the end of a disappointing date, when they don’t want to see you again.  If she wanted to see you again, she would have said something about making plans for a second date.

-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.

We had a conversation! You did not flee in horror! Therefore you must have my babies!!!

In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.

And sending someone who clearly wants nothing to do with you a long, creepy, accusatory tirade is polite?

Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship. 

Dude, you do understand that she has to actually like you too in order for there to be a relationship?

I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.

You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.

Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you.

Gain utility? Really? DATING IS NOT MICROECONOMICS!

In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.

Well, banker dude. You’re getting some feedback now. All over the internet.

If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind. In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.

So your argument is that she should go out with you, even though she doesn’t want to go out with you, because life isn’t perfect and you’re probably the best she really deserves?

Way to sell yourself, dude.

If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.

Well, she’s not really responsible for you thinking that every woman who twirls her hair in your presence wants to have your babies.

We have a number of things in common.

Oh dear, sounds like we’ve got another “logical” argument coming up here.

I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part.

Um, what?

I have no clever remark to make here, other than that Lauren is probably going to have to avoid going to the Philharmonic ever again, on the off chance she might run into banker Mike.

According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age.

YOU ARE RIGHT AGE. INTERNET SAYS SO. THEREFORE YOU MUST DATE ME.

 I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common.

Also, you both require oxygen to live. Lauren, can’t you see that you and banker Mike are soulmates?

I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.

Banker Mike: You said you wanted feedback. Here is some feedback. She was apparently not horrified by your physical appearance. It may be your horrible personality that needs some work.

Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.

You’re fighting a losing battle here, dude. Just as you cannot argue someone into liking you, you cannot argue someone into being impressed that you manage your parents’ money.

In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.

And I’m the Queen of Denmark.

That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you.

Oy. As if this email wasn’t stalkerish enough already.

I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.)

This last bit I have no trouble believing.

I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens.

I suspect that Lauren has already played out various scenarios in her head already, and that none of them end well.

Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too.

So now you’re being noble and “open minded” for trying to pressure a woman who wants nothing to do with you into a second date?

If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.

Now you’re just making my skin crawl.

I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.

Here’s a solution, dude: How about she never goes on another date with you, ever. Then you won’t ever have to worry about her being late ever again.

If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.

I hope you find the feedback that the internet has now provided you to be helpful.

If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals).

Now we’re back on this again.

In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.

Damn you, foul strumpet, and your devious hair-playing ways! Google it! GOOGLE IT!!!

I would like to talk to you on the phone.

I think you’ve pretty much guaranteed that this will never, ever happen.

Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.

Not much to misinterpret here, Mike. You’ve made it absolutely crystal clear that you’re an undateable creep.

Let me be serious for a moment. Forget about Lauren. Hell, forget about women in general for a while, and work on yourself. Get some therapy; you can afford it. Work through your bitterness, your petulance, your highly unattractive mixture of entitlement and insecurity. Stop being a “Nice Guy” and learn to be genuinely nice.

And don’t ever, ever, ever write another email like this one.

 

 

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Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

If you’re trying to make me say that virgins are lesser people or that celibates must be miserable, not gonna happen.

If you actually need explanation of what’s so bad about organized persecution (up to death sentence), you fail so much as being-a-decent-human 101 that I don’t think you are worth anybody time, including mine.

*awaiting terrible comparison to bestiality or pedophilia (but what if you reeeeeally love this 13 yo?)

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

Of course, but the point was, that we’re making fun of an uncontrollable libido and other threatening behavior.

THAT THE MGTOWS KEEP TALKING ABOUT. WE’RE MAKING FUN OF IT BECAUSE THE MGTOWS KEEP BRINGING IT UP AND BEING SAD ABOUT IT AND IN THE NEXT BREATH SAYING HOW MUCH THEY HATE WOMEN.

In all analogies that I use (and most people use) the original thesis A is compared against a very exaggerated and extreme thesis B, otherwise the analogy wouldn’t be clear and we might not have a consensus about B.

That’s … not an analogy. Sorry.

I don’t understand that at all.

Then let me slowly and painstakingly explain. If a MGTOW is jealous of women because women have vaginas, it is because the MGTOW wishes that he had a vagina … to stick his dick in. Since women have vaginas but do not themselves have penises to put inside the vaginas, the MGTOW’s jealousy is misplaced.

I doubt anybody sits in his chair and thinks “Ok, I just think I might now start to hate women!” (because then he already hated them).

Probably not that exact ridiculous situation, no, but misogynists on some level decide to hate women. They could not hate women — or they could hate women. They’ve made a choice, or a series of choices, really, that leads them to believe that hating women is the correct thing for them to do. ON SOME, PROBABLY SUBCONSCIOUS, LEVEL. I REALIZE THAT THEY DO NOT SIT DOWN AND WRITE OUT A PROS/CONS LIST.

So, Kyrie said:

A lifetime denying and/or hiding your identity and any of your feeling of love is horrible.”

And Lian said:

“Why is it so horrible not to have sex or to express your feelings of love?”

Conveniently ignoring the denying or hiding your identity part. Conveniently ignoring the fact that this is upon penalty of death. Dude. It is horrible to live in a society that wants to kill you because of who you are/inborn characteristics beyond your control. It is horrible to be killed because you had sex. Its horribleness is magnified because there is a fucking history of oppression against people because of their sexuality throughout the world. I can see that you’re trying to make some sort of connection between LGBTQ in Uganda and MGTOWs in the US (both don’t have sex! both don’t have partners! See????), but it is NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL. AT ALL. A person in the US who really, really wants a girlfriend or boyfriend and cannot find anyone to date — I feel sorry for that person. Perhaps they can do something to get what they want; perhaps not. An LGBTQ person who will be killed by their government if they are caught in a same-sex relationship — that is a human rights violation. There is literally nothing they can do to get what they want. AND their government has a policy that would kill them. So NO, actually. NOT THE SAME THING.

Do you really not understand this? I can see that you are extremely stupid, but this is milkslave levels of stupid here.

Lian Li
Lian Li
8 years ago

OK, now it’s slowly starting to get fun, second round, the popcorn is already in the microwave (bad habit, it really ruins my keyboard… stupid scissor-switch, you can’t even clean them.)

Then let me slowly and painstakingly explain. If a MGTOW is jealous of women because women have vaginas…

Well no… it’s about the asymmetry in the attraction; in the animal kingdom you have all varieties of mating systems, sometimes the sexes attract each other equally, but mostly that’s not the case, it may be so extreme, that the only form of sex a species knows is rape, and in rare cases the role of the sexes are reversed, like in the phalarope, where the female aggressively pursues the male. We probably, very, very probably have such an asymmetry in humans, too, and this asymmetry is very prone to cause ‘friction’ and envy.

Probably not that exact ridiculous situation, no, but misogynists on some level decide to hate women. They could not hate women — or they could hate women.

Can you prove it? Because unless you believe that people with depression decide to be mentally ill, you see that it is very possible to end up with harmful mental states as a result of experiences, external influences and disposition?

They’ve made a choice, or a series of choices, really, that leads them to believe that hating women is the correct thing for them to do. ON SOME, PROBABLY SUBCONSCIOUS, LEVEL. I REALIZE THAT THEY DO NOT SIT DOWN AND WRITE OUT A PROS/CONS LIST.

Interesting, normally feminists tend to blame external influences for everything and deny ‘unconstrained free will’, whether it’s not becoming an engineer or being a hot chick.

Conveniently ignoring the denying or hiding your identity part.

What does “hiding your identity” mean, why is that necessary and so horrible?

Conveniently ignoring the fact that this is upon penalty of death.

No, I don’t ignore that, it’s not about if the law is horrible or excessive, it’s about the situation of homosexuals. The examples for excessive punishments in history are uncountable, in the eighteenth century it was written on gold coins “Clipping this coin means death”. So the law might have been horrible, draconian, excessive, because coin-clipping is only a very minor offense, but the situation of wannabe-gold-clippers wasn’t horrible, because they could simply abstain from debasing the coins.

Dude. It is horrible to live in a society that wants to kill you because of who you are/inborn characteristics beyond your control.

You don’t get punished for your orientation, you get punished for your sexual activity, which is, as you say, something you can control, that’s a huge difference.
It’s similar to pedophiles in the US, we don’t punish somebody for being a pedophile, we punish them when they molest or assault children.

It is horrible to be killed because you had sex.

But it’s not something they don’t know beforehand.

I can see that you’re trying to make some sort of connection between LGBTQ in Uganda and MGTOWs in the US (both don’t have sex! both don’t have partners! See????), but it is NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL. AT ALL.

😀 trust me, it’s important to work this trough. 😉

A person in the US who really, really wants a girlfriend or boyfriend and cannot find anyone to date — I feel sorry for that person. Perhaps they can do something to get what they want; perhaps not. An LGBTQ person who will be killed by their government if they are caught in a same-sex relationship — that is a human rights violation.

If the Ugandan parliament passes the “Anti-Homosexuality Bill” (wow, right to the point, the name of this law), Uganda will violate Article 17 of the ICCPR, which it has signed. But it’s not clear, if the UDHR does protect you against laws that criminalize homosexuality, so it’s wrong to say that it’s a human rights violation.

There is literally nothing they can do to get what they want. AND their government has a policy that would kill them. So NO, actually. NOT THE SAME THING.

Oh, Bee, you have a wanton imagination, I didn’t compare them, that’s your twisted idea. Everything I said about the criminalization of homosexuality, was to proof how important it is for people to be able to have sex and/or get a partner.

Lian Li
Lian Li
8 years ago

That there are actually gays who are executed, though they clearly knew the danger, really shows how strong and uncontainable this desire must be – which, I’m sorry, I find unsettling. So it seems, it’s not like craving for chocolate, right, and to speak of a ‘gap in perfection’ is a bit of an euphemism? 😀

And now, to sum everything up, If there’s a considerable asymmetry in the attraction and priorities, mainly the sex drive (something we don’t doubt, it’s admitted on this very site, e. g. fewer female than male incels), a good deal of compromises are necessary. Compromises can soon get out of hand and end in manipulation (like being in a relationship just for sex, feigning romantic interest) and worse. That some guys rant about women online, is, honestly, the most unsurprising thing ever.

Do you really not understand this?

😀 No. 😀 😀

I can see that you are extremely stupid, but this is milkslave levels of stupid here.

Milkslave?

And don’t use the word stupid, it’s called cognitively impaired, and I’m sorry, Bee, it’s not my fault, if I’m born that way, don’t be that mean to me!

ithiliana
8 years ago

@LL: Obvious Troll is REALLY Obvious, and downright ignorant (NOT the same as stupid) of rhetorical ability of Manboobzers to spot obvious dickbiscuit Troll.

Why don’t you go hang out with LJ? It’d be a match made in Troll Heaven.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I’ve been so good this year, I really want better trolls for Christmas.

Lian Li
Lian Li
8 years ago

No, ithliana, don’t underestimate me, you don’t know the whole story.

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

Well, good luck with that “thinking” thing you were planning on doing, Lian. Hope that works out for you! Although, like I said … baby steps. That way you won’t be disappointed when you can’t do it all at once!

Lian Li
Lian Li
8 years ago

I won the argument, hah!

katz
8 years ago

New rule: No using smileys when talking about how you don’t see what the big deal is about executing people who are different from you.

Lian Li
Lian Li
8 years ago

Dear katz, answer me one question, why do those people feel entitled to have sex?

Fatman
Fatman
8 years ago

Liam Li, I know you asked katz, but I might be able to help. Perhaps they feel entitled to have sex because they have consenting partners. You cannot have sex with out a consenting partner. If you tried to do so, in stead of having sex you would be committing rape.

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

Because they have found a consenting adult who wants to have sex with them. Two consenting adults who want to have sex with each other!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I, Lian Li, will now get femninists to admit that they don’t really believe that no one is entitled to sex, they just hate beta males. Watch as my cunning plan to get them to show their beliefs through cunningly placed troll questions plays out. I am such a genius! My plan cannot fail!

…Oh.

katz
8 years ago

Way ahead of me, Bee and Fatman.

ithiliana
8 years ago

LL: you don’t know the whole story.

Don’t know, will never know (who can ever know anybody’s else’s whole story!), don’t give a fuck, am still calling troll, especially with the homophobic nastiness you’re spewing.

Lian Li
Lian Li
8 years ago

Ah, ok, I’m sorry, that was my mistake, thanks that you pointed it out, Bee and Fatman! It was the consenting part I forgot… shhh… you know, I’m a little… I suffer from neurovariance… or to be blunt, I’m a bit dull! 😉

Still those gays really, really have an uncontrollable, raging libido, I mean to face the death penalty and they still can’t live celibate. Whoppa! Frightening!

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

or to be blunt, I’m a bit dull! 😉

Ah, no … you’re a little … I mean … you’re deeply stupid! LOLOLOLOLOL

If you had a coherent point that you weren’t ashamed of, you would’ve made it by now, wouldn’t you? 🙂 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 :):) 🙂 🙂 🙂

Don’t worry … shh … we’ve figured it out! You can go fuck off now!!! LOL!!!!!! Wheeeeeeee!

Monsieur sans Nom
Monsieur sans Nom
8 years ago

For all of you ladies and gents here trying to destabilize my contentment with my singleton status:

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

“Can you prove it? Because unless you believe that people with depression decide to be mentally ill, you see that it is very possible to end up with harmful mental states as a result of experiences, external influences and disposition?”

You don’t decide to be miserable, I should know something about that. What you decide is to spend your days reading MRM, PUA or MGTOW websites. You decide to blame all your personal problems on women or feminists and to insult both. (even people with Tourette syndrome are in control of what they write) You decide not to seek help, because blaming is easier. You decide to troll endlessly feminists forum. You decide that your feelings are rational and do not need to be changed. You decide to take a specific experience and pretend it’s the rule of the world (eg: a woman hurt me, all women are evil)
Unless you want to argue that every misogynist has hallucinations of god telling them to hate women.

It’s maybe just me, but I prefer “women are the worst thing there is, queers are gross, I’m the king of the world” trolls than “please explain me why it’s worse to kill gays than arrest weed users and gold thefts, ain’t I the funniest and smartest person in the world” ones.
They’re soooooooooooo boring. I don’t even want a better troll, just this one to be gone.

Dude, get a hobby. Far from here.

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