Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, cheester warns all of us dudes about an especially insidious form of anti-male oppression: the racks of women’s magazines that lurk near the checkout counters of grocery stores everywhere!
can I get some feedback on womens magazines at the grocery checkout? Every issue states “new tricks he doesn’t know in bed” and shite like that. It’s obvious porn for the gals but why is it so accepted by everyone that it has carte blanche to be within a two foot reach as I pay for my food? If a magazine for men had on the cover: “20 Ways To Make Her Squirm Like A Fish”….there would be a national outrage.
Yeah, it’s not like Men’s magazines ever run anything like that.
Church groups and womens rights would say it demoralizes women and have the publication banned or put behind censored racks in seedy smoke shops.
Yeah. It’s not like this ever happens to women’s magazines.
But the womens mags are right there as a last shop item in the flourescent lit, sterilized, family atmosphere where every mother parades her toddlers and kids right past the 3 letter word in big black block letters;SEX on the cover of every flashy colored womens mag that comes out each month.
Not only is this oppression of men, it’s oppression of all toddlers who can read and know what the word “sex” means.
Also, feminists have never criticized women’s magazines in any way. “Ten Ways to Make Him Squirm” articles are the distilled essence of feminism! And most of them are written by the ghost of Andrea Dworkin.
NOTE: Does this even need a “sarcasm” tag?
One of the main problems with the MRM’s approach to male victims of dv is that they use male victims as a rhetorical weapon and don’t actually want to help them. MRA’s don’t want to build shelters for men; they only want to take away shelters for women. They want to push female victims down rather than bring male victims up. The ideas listed at SAVE, an MRM dv website, pays lip service to victims but then advocates for offenders.
In their list of ten principles to reform DV legislation, they emphasize giving legal aid to offenders, accusing victims of making false allegations, and trying to force victims to stay with their abusers (euphemistically calling it family preservation). Some of the goals of SAVE is to end mandatory arrest policies, repeal the VAWA, and change public opinion by portraying female victims as “button pushers” and troublemakers. This is why I do not trust MRA’s that claim to be allies with feminists against ipv.
Ithiliana I will read what you linked me. I am not saying DV specifically man on woman is not a horrific issue. It is a horrible situation for a woman to get abused by a man.
Equally, it is just as horrible for a woman to throw a knife at a man or a sharp object. Moreover, Verbal abuse in a relationship is horrific as well.
While yes the statistics show more cases of male on female dv, it also shows an increase in reports of dv female to male. The problem is people are shamed into reporting that they were abused or raped in a relationship. For men especially, to report that they were abused by a female is risking ridicule. I have heard many men who report dv are not taken seriously
Domestic violence has to stop. Just because there are more cases of male to female violence does not diminish the concerns of female to male dv.
Bionic Mommy commented ” This is why I do not trust MRA’s that claim to be allies with feminists against ipv.”
Bionic Mommy You may want to check this site out http://www.nomas.org/
In my opinion NOMAS would be considered a non misogynistic, pro feminist, Mens Rights group. I do not agree with a lot of their platform but they are a group of MRA’s that are against sexism.
Heroicman
What defines the MRM, at least 90% of it, is incoherant anger. For the more articulate, this anger is directed at “feminists” – this represents a problem. The “feminists” that MRAs talk about range from Bill Clinton (seriously) to any woman who has ever done anything, ever, to help any woman (regardless of their stated political position).
Put simply, most MRAs don’t know what a feminist is – they use the term like George Bush Jr used the word terrorist. it’s a catch-all phrase for an undefinable enemy. If it makes an MRA angry; it’s a feminist.
But many MRAs are so basic that they just rant against women in general – look at the articles linked here.
Another thing that defines an MRA is a need for a sense of belonging – and they find it on the blogs and websites that have sprung up on the net. In a very real sense, this is the tragedy of the MRM. Sad, embittered men find other sad, embittered men who tell each other that the cause of their misery is the evil “feminists”.
Personally, I don’t believe that MGTOW exist.
Heroicman has to be Samuel. I refuse to believe otherwise.
Not only does he have the same… unique… writing style, he even has the same misconception that NOMAS is an MRA group.
If heroicman isn’t Samuel, they’re long-lost brothers or something.
“You have to understand though SaruGoku, a lot of these bitter at women MRA men have been hurt by women in their lives. They are just angry”
They’re not just angry. Angry people get angry at something for a short while and then get over it. These guys hold on to their grudges and wish some sort of revenge on all women everywhere because they have had an unlucky love life. They need to grow up and get on with life.
captainbathrobe | December 2, 2011 at 9:10 am
It’s funny that our “moderate” MRAs are now trying to dissociate themselves from A Voice For Men. Not too long ago, Elam was consistently cited, along with Farrel, as a “moderate and reasonable” MRA. Well, progress not perfection, I suppose,
Elam definitely has some strong opinions.The Spearhead can be extreme as well. But the more moderate sites lie Farrel’s and The National Coalition for Men
@thebionicmommy:
That right there is what depresses me about MRAs and the MRM as a whole. That there’s such an opportunity being lost. Out reach programs to male DV victims, homeless men, teach skills in prisons, or help ex-cons get back on track would all be wonderful projects.
If that time and energy spent hating women and feminists were spent actually building men up who need it the most, what a difference it could make.
The fact of the world is there’s plenty of horrible, cruel things that happen. Wanting to do something, however small, to help is at least a step in the right direction. A handful of pocket change to support Toys for Tots, disaster relief, or a women’s shelter isn’t going to change the world, but make it an incrementally a better place.
What the MRM seems to be riddled with is what I’ve heard “crab bucket syndrome.” That if you have a bucket of small crabs, a few will eventually try to climb out. Those that try end up getting pulled down by the ones still in the bucket. I heard this phrase in a short story about a genius at an inner city school, getting perfect grades. The more he worked and the more he was recognized by the administration (including a $100 gift certificate for straight As), the more the other kids in the school dragged him down, beat him up, and mercilessly bullied him. It’s the classic “If I can’t have it, you can’t either.
The tragedy lies in that if one were to work, it becomes much more likely that one can get what they want, rather than hating others for having it, or trying to stop them from having it.
Hating women’s magazine like Cosmopolitan is common among misogynists (they believe that all women read them) and I think the main reason these guys bitch against these magazines is that these magazines tell women how to please men and no one woman ever wanted to please these guys. They feel left out and believe that it’s useful only for Alpha males.
Happy MRA commented Personally, I don’t believe that MGTOW exist.
Actually, the MGTOW movement is under the radar because a lof of these MGTOW men live very quiet unobtrusive bachelor lives called “ghosting”.
In Japan MGTOW has grown substantially in the last few years. Check these videos out to confirm this.
The second wing of the MRM are the male separatists (who call themselves “men going their own way” or MGTOW).
These are men who have grown up in an age of female individualism. Their experience is of a society which is geared toward maximising female autonomy, whether it’s in terms of education, careers or family.
They have been particularly burned when it comes to relationships. Some of them have lost out in the divorce courts. Some of them are men whose female peers have been “liberated” to waste their 20s chasing a few alpha guys. For these reasons they are not very trusting of, or sympathetic toward, women.
How do men react to female individualism? One way (the traditionalist way) is to criticise a radical individualism, for both sexes, as socially destructive. But the male separatists don’t do this. They respond instead by trying to imagine an individualism of their own.
How can men lead a more individualistic, autonomous life? How, in other words, do men “go their own way”? Above all, by not marrying. The male separatists vary a bit here. Some want to shack up with non-Western women (there is much hostility to white/Western women). Others promote the idea of occasional sexual encounters. Others don’t want any contact at all.
In order to persuade men not to marry, the male separatists push the idea that men are harmed by marriage. They also portray women in very negative terms (gold diggers, sluts etc).
It ends up sounding uncannily like the feminism of the 1970s, but with the sexes reversed. In the 1970s, it was feminists who thought marriage was oppressive to women, who promoted separatist solutions, and who therefore painted men in the most unflattering light possible.
The liberal and the separatist MRAs get along quite well, as both groups are committed to the idea of male autonomy or individualism. The separatists aren’t quite as motivated by the aim of deconstructing masculinity. Even so, they’ve managed to find common ground with the liberals here, since they believe that “manning up” means having to take on the responsibility of being a husband and father – which they fundamentally reject.
Both groups also react vehemently against the idea of chivalry. The liberals see it as being one reason why equality hasn’t been fully implemented; they believe that conservative judges treat women more favourably on chivalrous grounds. The separatists believe that chivalry encourages men to make sacrifices for women, which cuts right across the separatist aim of men living for themselves alone. Conservatives and traditionalists are blamed for perpetuating chivalry and holding back men’s rights.
@heriocman:
Not to downplay the severity of verbal abuse, but it seems like you’re putting it on the level with DV. Verbal abuse isn’t going to land you in the hospital. Verbal abuse won’t maybe get you killed. Verbal abuse won’t make it very dangerous to leave your abuser because zi’ll be more likely to come after you and murder you. Emotional abuse can be very psychologically damaging and it’s also likely to escalate into physical abuse, but to put them on a level like it looks like you’re doing is to dismiss the realities of DV.
But on the subject of emotional abuse: I was never hit, but I did spend most of a year practicing Meller’s formula for ending DV to deal with other issues. Turns out, you can do everything your partner asks you to do, you can apologize for yourself constantly when you “get it wrong,” you can tiptoe around their feelings as much as possible, you can start to think of your personality as bad and try to change it to suit your partner’s whims, and an abuser will still abuse. In fact, it’s a lot easier to do when you’re willing to excuse everything as being a result of your own actions. That’s one way abuse escalates, dumbass.
You want to be an ally? Read a goddamn book.
Holly wrote” Not only does he have the same… unique… writing style, he even has the same misconception that NOMAS is an MRA group.”
As I said Holly, MRA is a label. I believe imo that NOMAS is part of the larger MRM. They do have an agenda to help men’s issues. They are just the liberal end of the spectrum. It’s all different opinions.
@heroicman: NOMAS actually help on men issues. The MRM? Not so much.
It’s not surprising they would attempt to claim the work of people outside their movement to boost their own cred.
Heroicman, do the men going their own way have a healthy diet, including lots of vegetables?
Samuel and heroicman both live in New York too. I’m guessing they’re the same person, and heroicman just got himself a new IP.
So, I read the crap article heroicman keeps linking to, and it turns out it’s crap.
Thing #1: The author says that there are two types of MRAs: liberals and MGTOW. Can anyone anywhere remember hearing about an MRA who leans left of Rush Limbaugh? The MRM appears to be comprised solely of Ron Paul enthusiasts, racists, global warming deniers, warmongers, bootstrap-salesmen, and traditionalists. That is to say, conservatives at least.
Thing #2: The author blames the existence of “both types” of MRAs on women. Liberal MRAs were created by feminists, and MGTOWs by alpha-seeking 20-year-olds.
Thing #3: The author believes in the Greek system.
Thing #4: The author mischaracterizes feminism. Feminists are man haters. All of them. They all want jobs and husbands to stay at home with the kids too. Every last bloody one of them.
Thing #5: The author asserts that MRAs share feminists’ desire for men to stay at home and raise children, do household chores, etc. Perhaps he’s confused the MRM’s desire to punish ex-wives by gaining control over the kids they’ve expected their wives to raise with actual desire to … oh, I dunno, do laundry and sit up all night with a feverish toddler.
I kinda got sick of cataloging all his mistakes, actually, but he seems to be coming from the exact same place any other MRA is, with the exact same dislike and mistrust of women driving him, and the exact same privilege guiding him. The only difference is that he seems to have created out of whole cloth an imaginary MRM to address with concerns that don’t line up with the real world.
Seriously, heroicman (who I have to agree with Holly sounds just like Samuel, IP addy be damned, unless there more like him out there, which is a scary thought)? Most MRAs think Sweden is Gyno-Fascist HQ and squeal like scaled cats when you bring it up.
The Zeta Male is the leftiest leaning MRA I can think of off the top of my head.
Seriously, heroic man, this “liberal MRA” segment just doesn’t exist. And please see my earlier linked post when it comes to elements of the libertarian movement who were initially open to the libertarianish side of the MRA backing off in horror.
That was me. That’s still me. I gave MRA a shot, for a while. An honest shot. It got BAD in there. Let me compare my normal political activism – I get that there’s a lot of bad blood between feminism and the libertarian movement, deserved, undeserved, entrenched, whatever. I work on this because I’m a feminist libertarian and it’s worth doing for me. That means working with groups I deeply agree and deeply disagree with and gritting my teeth when my odd-duckness runs me into trouble, and standing up for my beliefs as I can along the way. I don’t require all my allies to be pro-feminist. But the MRA is not any kind of worthwhile political movement anymore, if it ever was. To the extent it’s got a libertarian and/or conservative feel, it shares this with many a fringe group (white pride, the conspiracist set). And there frankly is NO lefty MRA to speak of.
This isn’t two worthwhile and stubborn groups misunderstanding each other. This isn’t a movement I don’t know the history of. MRA is a pit of misogyny, illogic, vengeance fantasy and hate. I gave it a chance.
Wow, heroicman makes me want to headdesk so hard I’ll leave a dent, in head or desk or both. Can I just agree with captainbathrobe and Kyrie that Christina Hendricks is amazing? I had a dream where I was a middle-aged hippie who married her so that she could immigrate here, and though we were very close, it wasn’t sexual because she’s straight.
I also dreamt I married Nathan Fillion once, though I was my real self and age that time. Apparently I just want to get hitched to every sexy person in Firefly.
Oh, god, Christina Hendricks needs to be my personal secretary in space.
Viscaria, I am really jealous of your dreams right now.
About the OP now, in most grocery stores in Joplin, the magazines like Cosmo and Glamour are displayed in blinder style racks. The blinder racks hide the words that are on the edges of the magazine so you can only see the title and the main picture. The group the American Decency Association and local church groups pressure grocery stores to use blinder racks. I don’t know if this is common outside the Bible Belt, though.
I am a mother of small children who “parades” my children through checkout lines. What else should I do when I need groceries but don’t have someone handy to watch them? I honestly don’t think too much of the magazines, and my children don’t pay attention to them anyway. They are more concerned with those danged candy bars they put at children’s eye level at the checkout lines. It’s a good way to sell candy bars, but man does that cause a lot of supermarket tantrums and drama.
Yeah, as a former cashier I can attest to the candy drama at the checkout line. My favorite was when the kids would open the candy and eat part of it before their parents noticed. 9 out of 10 of those parents would sheepishly put the candy bar on the belt to be purchased. But there was always that one douche who would surreptitiously shove the open and half eaten candy bar BACK on the shelf!
Sometimes I swear they thought we weren’t real people. It’s like, “I’m standing right here. I CAN SEE YOU.” LOL. Good times.
Two things:
1) DV is endemic because the root cause is abusers believe their partner is a person it is okay to hit and/or yell at, that’s all. It’s difficult to change for all the reasons it’s difficult to change someone’s mind about anything.
2) I work in an archive dedicate mostly to the lives of women from the early 1900’s to the present.
In the course of my work I read a lot of letters and papers and articles women wrote in different eras and I wish I had a megaphone through which I could shout, “DKM’s view of women in the past is a myth fabricated from whole cloth!!”
Women have never been like that, there was never a time when women were quiet and chaste and demure. What there was were times when people wanted women to be a certain way and produced media to try to convince them to act, and dress, and represent themselves as quiet, chaste, demure, whatever; exactly like there today’s media representation of women isn’t a clear representation of womankind. There were also individual women whose personalities happened to be closer or further from those ideals, exactly like today.
Overall history was messy and complicated and contradictory and really, really interesting. The cartoon representation of it is freaking annoying.
Lol, Blitzgal, that is funny. I am one of the 90% of parents who sheepishly buy the half eaten candy bars. I recently decided to use the strategy of offering a candy bar from the checkout as a reward for good behavior at the grocery store. Yes, it’s bribery, and yes it’s using junk food as a reward, but it works like a charm.
Blitzgal – ROTFL
thebionicmommy – Yes, it’s bribery, and yes it’s using junk food as a reward, but it works like a charm. – Yeah, I admit I ended up doing this too. Grumble. I’m only happy she’s gotten to the tween stage and things are more reasonable now. Sort of.