Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, cheester warns all of us dudes about an especially insidious form of anti-male oppression: the racks of women’s magazines that lurk near the checkout counters of grocery stores everywhere!
can I get some feedback on womens magazines at the grocery checkout? Every issue states “new tricks he doesn’t know in bed” and shite like that. It’s obvious porn for the gals but why is it so accepted by everyone that it has carte blanche to be within a two foot reach as I pay for my food? If a magazine for men had on the cover: “20 Ways To Make Her Squirm Like A Fish”….there would be a national outrage.
Yeah, it’s not like Men’s magazines ever run anything like that.
Church groups and womens rights would say it demoralizes women and have the publication banned or put behind censored racks in seedy smoke shops.
Yeah. It’s not like this ever happens to women’s magazines.
But the womens mags are right there as a last shop item in the flourescent lit, sterilized, family atmosphere where every mother parades her toddlers and kids right past the 3 letter word in big black block letters;SEX on the cover of every flashy colored womens mag that comes out each month.
Not only is this oppression of men, it’s oppression of all toddlers who can read and know what the word “sex” means.
Also, feminists have never criticized women’s magazines in any way. “Ten Ways to Make Him Squirm” articles are the distilled essence of feminism! And most of them are written by the ghost of Andrea Dworkin.
NOTE: Does this even need a “sarcasm” tag?
Quackers The MRM is a legitimate movement. The average men’s rights activist (MRA) is hostile to feminism. And yet he also agrees fundamentally with the feminist agenda.
This leads to the odd situation of feminists arriving at MRA websites, liking what they read, proposing a grand alliance with the MRM, before being angrily chased away by the MRAs.
Quackers why the MRA movemment can be perceived as angry at feminism? They see individual feminists proposing an equal feminist agenda but she still retains the traditional gender role if she wants. For example. the onus is still on the man to pursue and risk rejection to ask the woman out.
Men must register for the draft in the USA. Women do not. That is not equal. Women should be drafted as well.
Heroicman, we are not going to go over MRA talking points 101 with you. We are also not interested in reading the same regurgitated quotes over and over again.
The average MRA does not fundamentally agree with the most basic principles of feminism. In fact, most MRAs are fundamentally opposed to those principles. You may be stupid enough not to realize this, but we are not. You may realize it very well and think that we should overlook it, but we are not going to.
(You may also just be trolling, in which case please at least try to be vaguely entertaining. Right now you are boring the crap out of me, and I suspect I’m not the only one.)
Cassandra, at this time in the wee hours of the morning here on the East Coast, I am not trying to entertain. I was just pointing out to quackers and others that the MRM is diverse and I linked a good article for reference. Cassandra I will continue to believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. I am not trolling I am serious, if I was trolling you would find me entertaining. Night Night.
I very much doubt that you are capable of being entertaining, honestly.
Also, that was not a good article. It was in fact an article that in many ways illustrated the things about the MRM that you’re trying to deny.
@heroicman
I’ll reply one last time but that’s it. I need to go offline anyway.
I’m pretty sure feminists don’t actually like what they read, because much of your movement’s writings are anti-feminist and blame feminism for everything. In addition to that there’s a lot of misogyny.
Exactly how if feminism picking and choosing certain gender roles? there are traditional people out there (the blog you linked for example) and traditional families and that’s the couple’s decision to make, but the majority of families these days need 2 parents working. Most women work and want to work. But if you look at a recent article that David covered on the Spearhead, the writer basically said women having careers is pointless because they don’t do a good job and women are just stealing jobs from men. Exactly how is that a call for true equality? able bodied women have every right to support themselves as able bodied men do as well as having the opportunity to follow career goals.
Yes it’s true that men are still expected to ask women out, but that is changing. I’ve read on feminist websites encouragement for women to ask men out. I’ve even been encouraged by friends of mine to ask men I like out. My issue is shyness and also fear of rejection (yes women fear rejection too, believe it or not) so I don’t do it. It’s NOT because I expect men to do it, and I fully accept the consequences that not asking men out will drop my chances at meeting someone, but until I battle my shyness I’ll have to live with it. Do realize also that if women are too forward when they pursue men, they have a high chance of being perceived as a slut. That’s our double standard we are trying to change.
Also there is no draft. Yes women should be required to enroll for selective service. Many men don’t want this though. I’ve read many arguments about it online and there’s a strong opposition to women fighting in combat. The military doesn’t want it. Also the National Organization of Women opposes only conscripting men http://www.now.org/issues/military/policies/draft2.html but ultimately they are against registration for both men and women. Seeing is how there are women in the military though, I wouldn’t be surprised if women end up being required to enroll for selective service in the future. In my opinion though it would be better to end selective service for everyone.
heroicman:
That’s a misunderstanding of what we’re about. We want both women and men to have the freedom to choose the role they want to live by and to be able to change it if they choose.
Of course a woman can retain the traditional gender role if she wants. So can a man. Or they can swap. Or change their minds. These things should be decided by the individual or the couple. If a man wants to stay home and raise children that should be perfectly OK, if a woman wants to do a job traditionally done by men, she should be permitted to do so. We don’t just want this flexibility for women, we want men to have it as well. In fact, we can’t really have it unless men have it too.
The reason why lots of women don’t ask men out is really pretty simple. It’s dangerous. If she is raped or assaulted by her date she has buckley’s chance of getting anyone to take her seriously if she fronts up to a police station to report it. Asking a man out is seen as sexual consent. Get rid of that perception and you’ll see a lot more women making the first move.
I was not aware that the US has a draft but I disagree with them anyway, except in the case of imminent invasion when everyone is needed, male or female, as a kind of national version of self defense. That being said I think it’s essential that women should be able to enlist as volunteers on the same terms as men and that’s what many feminists have been working towards for decades, so blaming us for this is hardly fair.
Heroicman:
I also think your seriously mistaken if you think that women like what they see on MRA websites because very often it’s the stench of the misogyny there that drives us off. I’m not talking about masculists (that’s what we call the left wing “let’s help men, work with feminists, build shelters, agencies for men and run campaigns focussing on men’s health etc” groups where I live), they’re genuine activists and I, for one have a lot of time for them. I’m talking about the right wing/sometimes libertarian MRA. The ones who talk about forcing women back into their old roles or even literally enslaving us. But the most obvious thing from our POV is that MRAs aren’t really about helping men, they’re about punishing and controlling women. If they were about helping men and not just whining about evil women and how we’ve “dun ’em wrong” we’d be a hell of a lot more sympathetic.
Heroicman @1.03am:
“Good Point SaruGoku. I feel the same way about Chivalry. So many young men grow up in this culture to please a woman, and get the pretty girl. Also men are conditioned “not to cry”, to be strong so he could protect his woman.Men have been conditioned to seek woman’s approval from a young age. I guess we both are on the same page SaruGoku just switch the genders.”
Most of us don’t like chivalry any more than you do. It was a lie when it was created and it’s a lie now. In a lot of ways we are mirror images of one another, which isn’t surprising since we were all raised in the same culture with a system that oppresses both to an equal degree but there are important differences. Women, for example, are far more likely to be victims of domestic violence and controlling behavior. They are less likely, if they live in a traditional relationship, not to have their own income and therefore are more easily controlled, particularly an abusive relationship. Until very recently they didn’t have the same access to jobs or education or of status that wasn’t derived from their husbands. They are also, even today, less likely to be believed if they go to the police if they’ve been raped or abused. So while there are certainly some similarities in some ways please don’t try to suggest that men have had it just as bad because that isn’t true.
“They have been particularly burned when it comes to relationships. Some of them have lost out in the divorce courts. Some of them are men whose female peers have been “liberated” to waste their 20s chasing a few alpha guys. For these reasons they are not very trusting of, or sympathetic toward, women.”
Look at this boilerplate misogyny right here. Look at it. Fuck this, fuck you.
Sorry, editing problem!
The second sentence of my last reply to heroicman should read:
In a lot of ways we are mirror images of one another, which isn’t surprising since we were all raised in the same culture with a system that oppresses both to some degree but there are important differences.
I need to remember to re-read when I’ve been editing my responses!1
SaruGoku
I understand where your pov is regarding women liking what they see on various MRA sites. Some MRA sites such as The Spearhead and A Voice for Men does exhibit misogyny. You have to understand though SaruGoku, a lot of these bitter at women MRA men have been hurt by women in their lives. They are just angry. I am not excusing these angry guys but just let you know. Some of theses MRA guys get less angry as you get to know them as people.
I have perused a few MRA blogs and there are some women that post on The Spearhead and A Voice for men. However, those blogs do have misogyny there but blogs like The Spearhead do give men who are angry a place to vent against women.
For years men who complained about women were either labeled as wimps, or having no chivalry which was considered a negative thing.Men had no venue, With the rise of the internet, now men have a place to criticize women without being labeled wimps or told by society “your a man. never let them see you sweat-suck it up.
The ones who talk about forcing women back into their old roles or even literally enslaving women I would not even label MRA. I would label that Right Wing Fundamentalism. Those same people who say they want to enslave women also want to enslave men by reinstating the draft and having innocent men soldiers killled in wars.
There are a few MRM sites that are considered “moderate” and you can check out.
http://mankindproject.org/ http://ncfm.org/ http://www.nomas.org/
Dr. Warren Farrrell is also very good. Now be aware MRM is just a label as is Feminism. It is a broad umbrella. So there are various perspectives amongst MRA”S. The Spearhead and A Voice for Men are pretty extreme but some other sites like http://www.warrenfarrell.com/ are more moderate. Check em out.
I’m sure there are easier ways to sugar up for your man-scaping!
I’m always amused by how “savvy” MRA defenders always seem to think that MRA’s asserting things ad nauseum are somehow equivalent to actual studies done with scientific rigor.
False equivalency! Ignorance of scientific method! Inability to comprehend how statistics work! Look! I’m being savvy and above it all!!!
Stop bringing facts and methodology to support your point!
Misandary!!!!
“With the rise of the internet, now men have a place to criticize women without being labeled wimps or told by society “your a man. never let them see you sweat-suck it up.”
I didn’t know that locker rooms, bars, the break room at work, cars, public sidewalks and living rooms did not exist before the rise of the Internet.
You obviously don’t read many MRA sites. Or just have confirmation bias.
Not to get all biblical on you, but check the log in your own eye before complaining about the mote in another’s.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
Go away until you can point to non-misanthropic MRA’s being norm, not the fucking outlier.
You don’t even read the fucking posts, do you?
No true Scotsman!!!!
Again, fuck off until you’ve fixed your own house.
Pish. Shows how many brains you’ve removed if you can call it “easy peasy.” Hurt too many neurons and your analysis gets wonky data.
😀
Yes, and monkey will fly out of my ass while we ice skate in hell. What planet are you from?
Can’t we all come together and agree that Christina Hendricks is awesome? Plus, she’s a size 14! How cool is that?
(Sorry. I really have nothing to add here.)
@captainbathrobe: I don’t know her very much, but I’ll agree because FIREFLY!!!!!1!! ^_^
It’s funny that our “moderate” MRAs are now trying to dissociate themselves from A Voice For Men. Not too long ago, Elam was consistently cited, along with Farrel, as a “moderate and reasonable” MRA. Well, progress not perfection, I suppose.
DKM:
He’s ahead of Slavey, who I suspect is coming from a similar position but obscures it by denying the very concept of sources.
Brandon:
By what measure is the time you’ve spent typing that not “wasted”? Also, what makes a study fair and unbiased?
@Heroicman: what we mean by MRA glossing over the realities of DOmestic Violence is what you are doing by saying “it is equally incorrect” for men to hit women and women to hit men. First off “incorrect” is a ludicrous understatement of the nature of the act (when it is not a consensual one between two partners, and second “equal” in MRA minds seem to imply “the same.”
Women do abuse men. People on this site know it. But the vast majority of reported abuse is men hitting women. There are real issues about men not reporting domestic violence, but FEMINISTS are not the reason men don’t report domestic violence.
Now, just like DKM and Brandon, NO MORE TALKING until you’ve read the fuckingass long post I gave a page or so ago on the FAST FACTS about Domestic violence, copied from a prosecuting attorney’s web site which has a dedicated “men as victims of Domestic Violence” section.
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/01/new-form-of-anti-male-oppression-discovered-womens-magazines-in-checkout-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-91360
You telling US that women hit men, as if it’s something we don’t know, don’t care about, or refuse to acknowledge (like the MRA refusing to acknowledge domestic violence as anything more than “uppity woman wanted it) is trolling. If you knew anything about the discusisons on this site, you’d know it (we have one maybe two posters who work with victims of domestic violence including male victims).
So fuck off until you’ve educated yourself, and stop telling ducks that water is wet.
This. This. This.
If all it took was more shelters to stop DV, I’d be out at a construction site right now. DKM has a very flawed understanding of the reasons and motivations behind DV if he thinks that the feminist “fix” is therapy and shelters. He’s assuming that everyone thinks of domestic violence as simplistically as he does. Telling people to “just go to therapy” is just as simplistic, shallow, and stupid a response to DV as telling women to “just learn to submit.”
Though, in my view, therapy is at least a start. But there’s no “justs” about it and without understanding DV in an in-depth way, with specific regard to the individuals involved (their personalities, histories, etc.) it is exactly the band aid measure SaruGoku mentions.
HellKell wrote The MRM is a legitimate movement. The average men’s rights activist (MRA) is hostile to feminism. And yet he also agrees fundamentally with the feminist agenda.
Yes, and monkey will fly out of my ass while we ice skate in hell. What planet are you from?
Hellkell get ready for figure skating in hell with simians. I am from earth. You?
Hellkell just as posters here have criticized me and DKM NWO Brandon for not reading posts fullly, I say to you HellKell Don’t you read the damn post? It mentioned that it is indeed an odd situation where you have MRA’s and feminists who while may be hostile to each other have a lot in common;here is the rest of the excerpt which explains your concern:
“How has this situation come about? It seems to me that there are two major wings of the MRM. The first is a liberal one. There are now plenty of men involved in the MRM who describe themselves not only as “very liberal” but even as being radically left-liberal.
These men, understandably, don’t like the way that men are portrayed as being privileged oppressors (i.e. bad guys) on the mainstream, feminist left. Rather than rethinking leftist politics, they respond by pointing to areas in which it is men who are treated unequally.
There’s the usual range of liberal attitudes amongst these men. Some of the more right-liberal ones limit themselves to calls for procedural equality. But others are more radical and want to follow through more consistently with the liberal ideal of making gender not matter.
It’s therefore often assumed at MRM sites that masculinity is an oppressive construct; that the aim of the MRM is to liberate men from masculinity; that society should be strictly gender neutral, including in parental roles and in having women drafted into combat roles; and that feminist countries like Sweden are the models for the rest of the world to follow.”
To add: even well-done therapy won’t actually undo the violence (obviously). I think that well-done therapy can do wonders to help people move on, but it is terrible when done poorly. Hell, bad therapy is more like grinding salt in wounds than a band aid.