Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, cheester warns all of us dudes about an especially insidious form of anti-male oppression: the racks of women’s magazines that lurk near the checkout counters of grocery stores everywhere!
can I get some feedback on womens magazines at the grocery checkout? Every issue states “new tricks he doesn’t know in bed” and shite like that. It’s obvious porn for the gals but why is it so accepted by everyone that it has carte blanche to be within a two foot reach as I pay for my food? If a magazine for men had on the cover: “20 Ways To Make Her Squirm Like A Fish”….there would be a national outrage.
Yeah, it’s not like Men’s magazines ever run anything like that.
Church groups and womens rights would say it demoralizes women and have the publication banned or put behind censored racks in seedy smoke shops.
Yeah. It’s not like this ever happens to women’s magazines.
But the womens mags are right there as a last shop item in the flourescent lit, sterilized, family atmosphere where every mother parades her toddlers and kids right past the 3 letter word in big black block letters;SEX on the cover of every flashy colored womens mag that comes out each month.
Not only is this oppression of men, it’s oppression of all toddlers who can read and know what the word “sex” means.
Also, feminists have never criticized women’s magazines in any way. “Ten Ways to Make Him Squirm” articles are the distilled essence of feminism! And most of them are written by the ghost of Andrea Dworkin.
NOTE: Does this even need a “sarcasm” tag?
Meller: Slavery and arraigned marriages are not the answer to all of life’s problems.
You heard it here first, folks! Victims in abusive relationships are pathetic! Also, women choose abusers on purpose, for mysterious ladybrained reasons.
DKM, said
Here’s the deal, DKM. Abusers are oftentimes very good at hiding their true natures when they begin a new relationship. I had an abusive ex who pulled the wool over my eyes and fooled many of the people I know. How could my friends and family warn me about him if they didn’t see the warning signs either? You just said that abuse gets worse as time progresses. In the beginning, though, things can seem normal and happy. You can’t tell at first glance who is capable of being an abuser or not. Some abusers can put on a very convincing public persona of being kind and sweet. Victims are oftentimes trapped by the time they realize how bad things are.
Also, just catching up on this thread and … NOMAS is part of the MR movement? MRAs regularly denounce NOMAS as a bunch of feministy manginas; look at my debate with Paul E about DV; he spent what seemed like half his time bashing NOMAS instead of dealing with my arguments/evidence. .
I didn’t move in with a “bad boy,” DKM. I moved in with a man who would appear to anybody to be a shy, gentle, friendly geek of a man, who was well liked. The abuse didn’t start right away. The abuse didn’t start for YEARS. The abuse crept up on me, and this was a person I had grown to love and trust over years of my life. As for why I didn’t leave, well, he threatened to kill himself, he called me a traitor, he said he needed help for his bipolar disorder. He said he loved me. He’d loved me for years. I began to believe I was indeed provoking him. There would be quiet times. There would be times when it was just like old times. And there were times when it was very clear to me that if I tried to leave, I would be dead. And when I left, he began stalking me, and harrassing friends of mine, and had we not been separated by an ocean, who knows what could have happened. The fantasy of the girl running off with the hot bad psycho, who treats her like crap is just that, the fantasy of MRA’s. And that sweet loving man, well, you don’t always know what he’s capable of. So why did I stay? Stupidity? Masochism? Or just that an abusive relationship messes with your head, that I think I very well may have been killed if I’d left at a different time, and that abusive relationships don’t START as abusive relationships?
Also, you know, arranged marriages are never abusive. Didn’t even you claim that in arranged marriage a woman’s responsibility at being the more emotional one should come into play to avoid being hit? Is it your postion that in virtually EVERY man is someone who may abuse “Even if they don’t WANT to!” and that all women should try their best to mollify this? If so, then what’s the difference if she runs of with that bad boy, anyway? Just that the good man takes LESS pacification?
Considering I cited a number of points you raised in your post, e.g. “… that the severity of abuse tends to increase over time” , this doesn’t say much for your post, Ilitiana, if upon reading it correctly, you still find my comment unsatisfactory.
PS–While you mentioned that “…boys or girls raised in an environment where they were likely to observe abuse were more likely to become abusers in adult life…” It still didn’t even begin to explain the question that I asked, namely, why, with millions of good men or women available as possible mates, did abuse prone partners choose abusive ones, sometimes over and over again, against all advice? As far as my reading comprehension goes, I couldn’t comprehend anyting in your post to answer the question, because you never even asked it!
What do you suppose YOUR reading comprehension is, of SaruGoku’s point, and of my reply?
fail!
dkm, i’m going to pretend for a second that youre actually serious about getting answer. surprise surprise, we actually know a whole lot about why people dont leave their abusers and why people partner with abusers in the first place
to answer the first: a lot of times abusers have total financial control over their partner, and leaving can be difficult. abusers level very realistic threats against their victims. they also can sound very convincing, and sorry about their abuse when they arent in the abusive phase. in addition, victims may genuinely love their abusers and believe the relationship can be repaired, even against all evidence. people who are victims of serious abuse don’t tend to be in the most rational mindset, because systematic abuse does that to you.
as to why people partner with abusers: nobody goes around advertising that theyre an abuser. its naive to think thats the case. most abusers exhibit a lot of the same qualities as sociopaths- theyre outwardly very charming and good at impressing people. this is also why a lot of abuse goes unnoticed by the community. a lot of the behaviors that abusers engage in, like the obsessive need to know where the partner is and what they’re doing, may at first seem like extreme concern and devotion, and may make the victim more attached to their partner not less. this also ties into another reason victims dont leave their abusers- theyre afraid everyone else will believe their partner and not them.
shocking- ‘it’s the victims fault’ turns out not to be a good explanation for any of these things.
Jesus fucking fuck, Meller. DV victims are often encouraged by their friends and family to just stay with their abuser. “It’s not that bad.” “It’ll get better” Etc. And in periods and places where women had less self-sufficiency and did end up in arranged marriages, guess what? Some of them were still abused!
The rest of what you typed sounds like the whinging of a so-called Nice Guy. We already know you’re not nice, Meller. You’re a simple-minded, asshole who hates women and dreams of having power that exceeds his abilities. Why would any woman be with you when she could be alone? Your lack of empathy alone makes you a very dangerous person, in my eyes.
to reiterate-
I don’t know, you don’t know, ilithiana–despite her voluminous source material on DV posted here, doesn’t know–and nobody knows! We can guess, but most of our guesses, in the absence of peoples’ experiences, are incomplete at best, and probably wrongheaded at worst.
this istotal horseshit. we actually know a lot about these questions, dkm just doesnt want to know because it might mean a feminist was right about something, and that’s intolerable.
Jesus fucking fuck, Meller. DV victims are often encouraged by their friends and family to just stay with their abuser. “It’s not that bad.” “It’ll get better” Etc. And in periods and places where women had less self-sufficiency and did end up in arranged marriages, guess what? Some of them were still abused! –
I know of a family that literally refused to take in their abused daughter and forced her to stay with her husband because of his money. Fully aware of what was going on.
You didn’t Zhinxi, but a LOT do, and refuse warnings even when they are offered. I suggested a way in which, admittedly in a very different kind of society and gender relationships, how sometimes the victims family, along with her Conflict Resolution/Arbitration intstitution, could address these problems better than outsiders, or the individual abuser and victim, but again, nobody seemed to like it.
I hope that you’re not going to say that the status quo is so perfect that no alternatives can possibly lead to improvements, if not solutions. But understanding–NOT blaming–is the first step toward such improvements.
At any rate, the fact that they don’t start as abusive relationships is helpful and probably, along with improved understanding of the many other sexual, psychological, and perhaps hormonal/neurological phenomena that determine human attraction, maybe a crude but servicable “early-warning system” (if LISTENED TO) would be helpful to a lot of couples, and their families and friends!
Jesus, Meller, these abusers don’t wear fucking signs that say, “Get abused, ask me how!” They look JUST LIKE YOU. You disingenuous freak.
I win an internet! Yay! hi, Samuel! Not so good to have you back.
“Also, I have to say, “heroicman,” that your screen name demonstrates a singular lack of insight. It’s not intended to be ironic, by any chance, is it?”
If I started signing all my comments to him as SacredYoniWoman do you think he’d get the joke?
Meller: So much fucking victim blaming. Why don’t we collectively put the blame on the actual abusers?
Hey, DKM, I wrote a very big post about reasons someone might stay with their abuser:
http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-does-she-stay-with-that-jerk.html
There’s a lot of reasons and “guess they just like it” isn’t one of them.
You’re being very inconsistent, Meller. Are abusers provoked by their partners’ willful ways, in which case the victims should be more submissive and stop having opinions? Or should victims leave their abusive relationships, and in failing to do so they’re inviting more abuse?
Can you not at least choose a form of victim blaming and apply it consistently, instead of holding two contradictory victim blaming stances?
Meller – I hope that you’re not going to say that the status quo is so perfect that no alternatives can possibly lead to improvements, if not solutions. ”
I previously offered Roderick Long’s Beyond Patriarchy, a Libertarian Model of the Family as a starting point, remember?
http://praxeology.net/libertariannation/a/f43l2.html
In that is the start of a libertarian solution to dv and other family rights issues that makes way more sense than your supposedly libertarian “family subsumes the individual” model. I am thinking about these things, Meller, so don’t be disengenuous.
Yeah, that’s what I learned by watching Lifetime movies too, Meller.
SHOCK: Lifetime movies =/= real life. Might want to look into that.
dkm, again, if youre really serious about ending dv, thats great. its a very positive step for you. but before you start throwing out solutions, you need to make an effort to make yourself knowledgeable on the subject, and you dont seem to have any interest in doing that. until you do, your desire to help is not going to be appreciated.
@ Bee – It’s baffling. If the herbivore guys were American you know MRAs would be calling them emasculated and manginas, so why are they suddenly to be admired when they’re from outside the US? Also, do you think MRAs are aware of the carnivore girl counterpart?
I’d kind of like to see a debate between an herbivore guy and an MRA actually, just for the lulz.
Herbivore guy – Hi, welcome to my home. Would you like some cake?
MRA – Cake? It has little sprinkles on it! What are you, a mangina?
Herbivore guy – A what? I’m sorry, I don’t understand, and you seem very angry.
MRA – Forget the cake, let’s talk about women. Evil bitches, aren’t they?
Herbivore guy – …Um, no? Not in general. Were you thinking of someone specific?
MRA – THEY’RE ALL EVIL BITCHES WHO WANT YOUR MONEY AND YOUR BODILY FLUIDS
Herbivore guy – Oh, wait, I think I saw that movie.
MRA – MAGINGA!!!
CassandraSays – ROTFL
Herbivore guy – I was going to take a scenic walk, would you like to join me? It’s very relaxing.
MRA – I AM RELAXED! IT’S THOSE CRAZY BITCHES WHO WON’T LET YOU RELAX! AND I DON’T GO ON LONG WALKS WITH NO GUYS! OR DO ANYTHING WITH BITCHES!
MRA – Why can’t you stop eating cake and playing with cats and be a Real Man, huh?
Herbivore guy – Ugh, you’re just like my Dad. This is exactly what I was trying to get away from. This meeting is over!
MRA – MAGINGA!!!
…okay, so I get that this is a typo, but I really think it should become a thing. Can “MAGINGA!” now be shorthand for “generic MRA-shrieking-and-using-words-that-don’t-mean-anything”?
Example: “You’re a pussy-whipped beta facial-omega who is secretly controlled by the Rothchilds! MAGINGA!”
DKM, you’re talking about early warning signs of DV, but I’ve seen a lot of MRA’s railing against the Duluth Wheel of Power and Control. The Duluth wheel does give a good list of early warning signs for abusive relationships, but MRA’s try to take it out of context and claim that dv advocates call the use of logic abusive. It’s another case where victims can’t win. If a victim stays in an abusive relationship in spite of some warning signs, no matter how sublte, zie is to blame for staying. If zie leaves at the first sign hir partner is controlling, though, then zie is overreacting to “feminist propaganda”.
Ilithiana (remember her) cited a number of studies, of varying degrees of authenticity and reliability, which spanned the years from 1989-2007. It is possible that the ones published in ’89,( almost 20 years ago!)were a bit dated even then, so we may fairly say that your way has been tried for the past quarter century, with strong support from the law and “mental health professionals”, the medical profession, the constabulary, the news and mass-entertainment media, and the general public. Have we seen any improvement? Have we seen any striking breakthrough, to the gratitude and relief of abuse and perhaps rape victims everywhere, and the people who care about them? NO!!
Every word of my critics here could have been written in 2000, in 1989, and probably long before that. You feminists, despite Sherculese;s and Bees insolence and arrogance, have NOTHING to show for over a quarter century of work! I’m the first to admit that I had,and have, a lot to learn, but all that I get from any of you is circular repetition (woman good– men bad!) “blame-the-victim” feminese for look at both sides, and look at where she could do something to improve her own life, without making the same mistake twice, and more feminese-“We know ever so much about DV, and you’re just afraid of being wrong and seeing a feminist right…” Sherulese; Holly Pervocracy, citing an example “why does she stay with him”, which could have been posted in 1975 without altering anythng substantial, and youall tell me that YOU have all the answers. Viscaria sort of throwing two observations of mine, each valid when addressing its particular situation, and again reverting to feminese, rather than English, “blaming-the-victim”, and so on etc.Bee, with her usual “mellerphobic” attack on my “lack of empathy”, when I at least try to look at where they are going wrong, adn she, on the other hand, turns ‘broken record’ on everyone with the same stuff she spewed out for months before. All of your “empathy”, Bee, won’t help a single person in such a fix!
I’ll go home happy, knowing that if you always do what you’ve always done…you’ll always get what you’ve always got!
Have fun!!