Well, here’s a new twist. We all know, from reading the endless tirades on the subject scattered all over the manosphere, that women are evil, selfish and ungrateful creatures whose primary goal in life is to leech off of men and make them miserable.
In a recent post titled Playing Career Woman, manosphere blogger Dalrock takes on some of the most evil and selfish ladies of the whole lot of them: upper middle class ladies who insist on going to college and getting jobs, then later leave the workforce to raise their children.
You might think that these ladies would deserve some props from traditional-minded manosphere dudes for supporting themselves instead of leeching off of men during their twenties, then settling into a more traditional housewifely role once they have children.
Oh, but you don’t realize just how evil and disruptive and oppressive their phony careers are to the men of the world. After all, these aren’t women who need to work to support themselves. No, according to Dalrock, these are “women who use their education and career as a way to check off the box to prove their feminist credentials before settling down into an entirely traditional role.”
According to Escoffier, a commenter on Dalrock’s site whom he quotes with approval, in the good old pre-feminist days:
Women who pursued careers (apart from traditional female roles such as teaching … ) were considered at best sort of harmlessly odd … but we know that family life is superior and more important.
Then came feminism:
Now it’s “You MUST do this for own sake, not to do it is to not realize your potential.” …
The way the [upper middle class] has “solved” this problem is to send girls to college, let them launch their careers–whether in soggy girly stuff like PR or crunchy stuff like business and law–and then they marry late (~30), have kids a few years later and drop out of working at least until the kids are grown.
This answers a couple of needs, not least the need for two incomes to accumulate assets so that the couple can eventually buy into a UMC school district.
Oh, but these women aren’t really earning money because they need it to, you know, pay bills and shit:
[T]he real importance of this solution is to her psyche. Getting the education and career are a way of telegraphing “I am a complete person, not some drone like June Cleaver. I am just as smart and capable as any man. In my altruistic concern for my children, I choose not to use my talent in the marketplace but to devote myself to them.” In other words, she needs that education and early career to mark her as better than a mere housewife, even though she will eventually choose to become a housewife.
According to Dalrock, such women are far more evil than the feminist women who get jobs and stick with them. (Emphasis added.)
Men and women who work hard to support themselves understand that they are in it for the duration. There is a determined realism to them. … These aren’t the women we are talking about. The women Escoffier described see having a career as a badge of status to be collected on their way to their ultimate goal of stay at home housewife. They aren’t really career women, they are playing career woman much the way that Marie Antoinette played peasant and Zoolander’s character played coal miner.
In the comments, someone calling himself Carnivore explains just how unfair this all is to the poor innocent working men of the world:
When men get a degree or go through a vocational program and then land a job, they’ve normally got 40+ years to contribute to increasing the wealth of society. Women “playing” career damage society:
1. They displace men for positions in college or vocational school.
2. Upon landing a job, they displace other men for the job position.
3. The increase in the labor pool drives down wages (supply & demand).
4. While in the labor pool, women are less effective and less productive than men.
5. Because they are in the labor pool and cannot compete with men, women support labor laws to enforce “equality” which burden businesses and can cause men to get fired due to some infringement or just to meet quotas.
6. When they leave the labor pool after becoming bored, there is now a hole than can be difficult to fill because the men who would normally fill it have been displaced for all the reasons above.
Carnivore places part of the blame on the feminism-infected parents who taught these women the wrong things:
Women do NOT know what they want. They have to be guided. Most parents have so bought into feminism that they don’t see any other way. It’s a riot – or sad – talking to parents when they go into all the detail about choosing a college, going on campus visits, making sure she gets into the best school, etc., etc. You would think these parents would spend their time and energy on prepping their daughters for the most important life decision – choosing a man for marriage, how to make a husband happy and how to raise healthy children.
The commenter called Ray takes it one step further:
i was in the workplaces during feminism 1.0, and it had nothing to do with fairness, equity, egalitarianism, or any other positive attribute
in fact, it was a slaughter, resulting in the vast disenfranchisement and destruction of millions of american men — there were dozens of ways men could be hassled, RIFd, and forced from employment, and they were (all to chants of Equality and Empowerment)
this resulted in the massive unemployment of the very men needed to create, invent, and revitalize the culture. and to be fathers to sons . …
no female should be employed, or educated, if it means a qualified male must be excluded
Women, stop leeching off men by paying your own way!
NOTE: This post contains SARCASM.
@thebionicmommy: Yes, you want to give women options at the expense of men. At least women have an option to either work or stay at home. Do you realize that doesn’t really fly that well when you switch the genders.
I wish I could find someone to financially support me, while I stay at home.
I and others here (Pecunium, I believe) have been stay-at-home dads at various times. In my case, my wife had a better job than I, whereas I had more experience working with kids. If we didn’t need the money, I would do it still, since I really don’t like the idea of my youngest being raised at daycare. There are some damn good reasons, from the perspective of child development, for one or both parents to stay home at least part of the time if they are able. Sadly, increasing numbers of parents are not able to do this. Not really a good thing, in my book.
Once again, Brandon, you are full of shit. Color me totally unsurprised.
@thebionicmommy: Yes, you want to give women options at the expense of men. At least women have an option to either work or stay at home. Do you realize that doesn’t really fly that well when you switch the genders.
…except for when it does, as in Wetherby’s life or the example I gave you. You know who is fighting for greater social acceptance of stay-at-home dads and less discrimination against women in the workplace so that they are just as likely to be the primary breadwinner as men? Hint: it begins with an F and rhymes with “schmeminists.”
I wish I could find someone to financially support me, while I stay at home.
The go look for someone like that! I can assure you that there are a not-insignificant number of women out there who’d find, “I really want to be a stay-at-home dad someday” to be a turn-on.
CB: I and others here (Pecunium, I believe) have been stay-at-home dads at various times.
For some value. I have been an au pair. I have also been the stay at home partner, but we didn’t have kids.
@Herp: Ya, what is the rate of vasectomy failure? .0001%. Plus you can get tested to verify you are “shooting blanks”. So even if it doesn’t work the first time, you can fix it.
@thebionicmommy: No, I just don’t buy into the notion that being a stay at home parent is 1) insanely difficult and 2) it is “the most important job on the planet”
Stay at home parents work but there are lots of other jobs that are 1) need more intelligence 2) more physically demanding.
Let’s get one thing straight. They are not my children…they would be OUR children. A mother has just as much responsibility in taking care of the child. You think being a stay at home mom is 1) what you want to do and 2) where you will be most beneficial…right?
Well, the child still needs food, clothing and shelter at a bare minimum. Better get working! Oh wait…you can just force a man to do all the grunt work you don’t really want to do…how nice!
@everyone:
I think slutty women are indulging in a very shallow activity because they think it will make them happy. Basically they are trying to find an external object/source to make them happy.
I think this behavior is similar to how drug addicts seek out drugs. They use them as an external object that can make them happy (at least in the short term).
The problem with that is happiness doesn’t come from an external source, it comes from within you. Addicts are trying to cure an internal problem with an external problem.
This shows 1) she is impulsive and 2) she has no self control. These two things alone is enough of a red flag to not consider a woman as a potential wife. At best she is a short term fling.
Yes, I know. Men aren’t held to exactly the same standards. Well, why don’t you try teaching women to view men that sleep around a lot are bad news and should be avoided? Wait…you don’t want to change women’s behavior…you want to normalize bad behavior.
Of all of the people in the world to complain to about society stigmatizing stay at home fatherhood, why are you complaining to feminists? Feminism is about giving people options beyond the traditional gender roles. I respect stay at home dads, and wish other people in society would treat them better for their choice. Feminists are much more likely than traditional, conservative women to take on the role of the breadwinner while their husbands stay home to raise the children. Complaining to us about traditional gender roles is just preaching to the choir.
If you honestly wanted to be a househusband, then you need to find a woman who wants to be a breadwinner and have you stay home. I do hope you realize, though, that running a household and raising children is hard work. I also know you say you’re getting a vasectomy, so it might be harder to convince a woman to be your provider if you won’t have and raise children for her.
“Basically they are trying to find an external object/source to make them happy.”
People who aren’t sluts or addicts never go to movies/plays/concerts/sports games for entertainment. They don’t watch television or have hobbies or read books. External sources of fun are for the sluts.
So, women are basically wrong no matter what they do? That seems to be the theme of the “manosphere”.
Well, the child still needs food, clothing and shelter at a bare minimum. Better get working! Oh wait…you can just force a man to do all the grunt work you don’t really want to do…how nice!
Like the 4 a.m. feeding, and the earaches, and the lunches, and the diapers, and the laundry, and the trips to the doctor, and the clothes shopping, and the puke in the carpet, and the cuts and scrapes and bruises, and the parent/teacher conferences, and the colic that lasts all day, and the daiper rash, and the “helpy” that takes all the pans out of the cupboard, “to clean them mommy1” and the sweeping up the broken plates, and, and, and.
Add the meals for the adults, and the grocery shopping and dealing with the plumber, and the cable, guy, and travel to playdates, and soccer, and little league, and scout meetings, and all the other things you are still ignoring from the last time this subject came up.
Because it’s all days of wine and roses when you spend your days, 24/7 with children.
@Bathrobe: Yes, and what stigma is often placed on men that aspire to be stay at home fathers? That he isn’t a man.
1) If being a stay at home father was more important than you looking good in front of your male buddies, then you would do it regardless of what they thought.
2) However, most men do not aspire to be stay at home fathers.
Also, you just proved my point earlier on. The way society is going, it is becoming harder and harder for one parent to stay at home while the other works.
I find this funny to talk about. Men working and women staying home…what is this? Did we go back to the dark ages?
@Polliwogs: Why would I support more stay at home fathers? I don’t even support stay at home mothers. The notion that it is an actual option needs to change. Luckily for me, society is moving in that direction anyways.
I was actually being sarcastic. I don’t want to stay at home. Also, the women that I am attracted to aren’t usually “pro stay at home daddy” women.
Brandon: @everyone:
I think slutty women are indulging in a very shallow activity because they think it will make them happy. Basically they are trying to find an external object/source to make them happy.
Better, but still not a good operational definition. A woman who is with one partner all her life might be doing the same thing.
What is the observable behavior which you define as slutty/promiscuous? Once we have that (and you get to define it. No committee you have to get to agree with you. These are your ideas. This one is all about you) then we can begin to discuss the rest of it.
Until we have an actual definition, one we can measure against, then we can talk about it.
Until then, you are just blowing smoke.
Well, the child still needs food, clothing and shelter at a bare minimum. Better get working! Oh wait…you can just force a man to do all the grunt work you don’t really want to do…how nice!
Brandon, you keep saying these things that make me wonder if you are aware that children are not actually toys. They do not go into some sort of “standby mode” when you don’t happen to be around them. Children need food, shelter, and clothing. They also need someone to take care of them 24/7/365 until they are old enough to take care of themselves. Your options when you have a kid do not include “provide kid with food and clothes, then wander off and assume kid will be fine on its own.” They include only “take care of child 24/7/365 yourself” or “get someone else to do the work of taking care of kid during the times you’re not around.” You claim that you’re aware that child care is work, and then you come right back and explain that a stay-at-home parent needs to “get working” to take care of their child’s needs, totally ignoring that someone looking after the child IS one of the child’s needs.
Is it just that you find the idea of someone trading labor for money super-confusing? Because, um, that’s pretty much the entire concept of “a job” in the first place. Why is it okay to trade the labor of taking care of a child for the money to pay your bills if you’re a nanny or a day care worker or a babysitter, but magically totally different if the child in question came out of your uterus?
What!? You mean feminism isn’t like the KKK but against men?
Sigh. Back to the drawing board!
I find this funny to talk about. Men working and women staying home…what is this? Did we go back to the dark ages?
No. But we are the ones arguing for options. You are the one saying, “It should be this way; anything else is stupid, and wrong.”
Pecunium:
You asked the question, if I read your post correctly, what do I think of Paul Ryan, and his tax cuts. I replied,(in a fairly “Democrat-friendly” way, I might add) that I didn’t think much of them, or of him, and I proceeded to give you some reasons as to why.
If i just posted my opinion of Ryan without this, you would probably have just asserted that my opinion was without foundation and demanded sources, references, and notes ad infinitum. All I wanted to do was explain why Paul Ryan was unimpressive even as a tax cutter, and go on from there.
I hoped that my comparison between him (and the GOP people who support him() and RP (and the GOP people who HATE him) would have laid the basis for a more favorable view of Ron Paul, given the financial emergency the USA—to say nothing that the rest of the world–is facing now, but it is obvious that RP is simply someone whom we must “agree to disagree” about.
If you think that my effort at answering your question was “a bunch of boilerplate talking points”, then, Pecunium, I am sorry to have wasted your time!
Brandon: Vasectomies can fail years and years after they’re performed. The generally established rate of failure is 1 in 2000. So as long as you keep getting tested — regularly for the rest of your life — to make sure you stay sterile, then you’re good.
@AmandaMarcotte:
How nice of you to visit. I always wanted to talk to someone “famous”.
By the way, most men can also tell you that women put them in scenarios they can’t win. Hence the expression “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
It’s not men, or the patriarchy, or the matriarchy, or the manosphere….it’s people. People place high, often conflicting expectations on others. The point is why do you care about other people’s expectations?
Brandon, I don’t think you have any idea how much work parenthood is. It is a 24/7 job. There is no lunch break or clocking out. Children need constant care. It doesn’t matter if you’re sick or tired, you have to suck it up to meet the children’s needs.
When my children were babies, I had to get up two or three times a night to breastfeed them and change their diapers. They would cry and I would have to work out the puzzle of why because they couldn’t tell me they had gas, or needed a nap, or wanted to look at a toy. Then there is potty training, and believe me, it is no cake walk. After the tornado, my husband was at work, so I was alone to take care of the children, deal with contractors and insurance agents, and manage a household living in a construction zone. I wouldn’t change a thing about my life, but I will object if you say it’s easy.
Well, the child also needs feeding, bathing, teaching, playing, healthcare, a clean home, emotional support, and physical safety.
If a woman is doing that grunt work, that has value. It’s something that you would otherwise need to spend either money or time on. You can’t write it up as a zero on your relationship ledger.
Brandon thinks he can argue with Amanda Marcotte?
Let me get my popcorn.
Yet another clueless misogynist who has no idea how farm life works, I see.
@Lauralot: There is a difference between going to see a movie and allowing another human being to sleep with you.
@Pecunium: There is no objective definition. I basically watch how a woman behaves. Is she sleeping with a lot of people? What kind of people are they? Are they assholes? Do I know if they have an STD? etc..,
It’s not like there is a set number and voila…a slut is born!
@Polliwogs: Why would I support more stay at home fathers? I don’t even support stay at home mothers. The notion that it is an actual option needs to change. Luckily for me, society is moving in that direction anyways.
I was actually being sarcastic. I don’t want to stay at home. Also, the women that I am attracted to aren’t usually “pro stay at home daddy” women.
Oy. Yes, I know. Let me just recap this conversation for those following along at home:
Brandon: Being a stay-at-home mom is unfair because being a stay-at-home dad isn’t an option! Women have options that men don’t!
Me: Men do have the same options. There are stay-at-home-dads in the world. If you really wanted to be a stay-at-home dad, you could.
Brandon: But I don’t WANNA be a stay-at-home dad. So no one should be able to be a stay-at-home parent!
I mean, dude, even for you, thinking this is somehow a defense of your argument is asinine. All it is is yet another example of how, to you, What Brandon Wants not only defines What Everyone Should Want, but apparently determines reality itself. Stay-at-home dads, you no longer exist, because Brandon doesn’t want to be you!
You could say the same thing to hikers. Why do you need some damn mountain to make you happy? Happiness comes from within! Yet you don’t seem to think of hikers, or movie fans, or foodies, or people who use some sort of stimulus to make themselves happy (which is everyone) as dirty and degraded.
If a woman has sex using birth control and contraception with carefully selected partners, that’s not out-of-control. That’s just a lot of sex. Someone can have a lot of partners and yet be quite careful with each of them.
We don’t want everyone to be equally miserable. We want everyone to be equally free.
If behavior that gives pleasure and can be done with a low risk of negative consequences is “bad,” that’s a new and exciting definition of the word.
Women worked in the Middle Ages, too. They planted and harvested, spun and wove cloth, cooked and cleaned, were guild members and heads, captained ships (some legally with letters of marque, other not so much), served in armies (as washerwomen or soldiers in disguise), served in religious orders, were scribes, painters and sculptors. Some were even independent rulers or explorers (look up Aud the Deep-Minded sometime, she was pretty kickass).
In other words, it is a blanket term for women Brandon disapproves of. By definition, not marriageable (to Brandon).