Consider the plight of the poor, horny Man Going His Own Way. He may have convinced himself that women are icky monsters out to highjack his sperm and steal his money. He may have convinced himself we live in a femi-fascist gynocracy out to destroy men and civilization generally. Yet his disobedient penis can’t stop thinking about sex with these evil, filthy women.
And so he turns to his fellow MGTOWers to ask for help: what can I do, my brethren, to stop popping so many boners? Ed1974, a newbie on MGTOWforums.com, puts it this way in a plaintive recent post:
[M]ore than almost anything I want to be woman-free and contentment to live a woman-free life. For more or less all of my adult life I’ve played in to society’s demands that I have to have a woman, and preferably a pretty woman, in my life. I’ve done a lot of Internet dating and every friggin time I get involved with a woman I regret it. Either I just want to get some ass and the woman wants a lot more than that and makes a mess out of my life when I leave, or I end up spending way more money than I ever wanted to spend just to have her grace my life with her presence, or something else that fucks up my life. The bottom line is I sincerely want to live a life without the desire to have a woman in my life.
So Ed is taking steps to quell his desire:
1. I downloaded a firewall blocking all dating sites.
2. I’m going to read as many books on misandry that I can.
3. I’m going to take myself out of situations where I can get in trouble, such as bars.
4. I’m going to fill free time that I would normally spend out with some woman with something productive.
I also want to remember the bad times where I’ve had women who I’ve tried to get out of my life end up stalking me for months on end. And to be perfectly honest, I want to remember the time I got the clap from some skank. I also want to remember that I should be thankful that I’m not a baby daddy and I’ve never had any false rape charges against me.
Alas, but poor pretty Eddie is afraid that this won’t be enough, and begs the assembled MGTOWers for “other steps I should take.”
Site admin Nacho Vidal suggests he go another way entirely:
My advice would be to scrap the ‘steps’ you’ve taken and take your wanking up a notch! Also, have you looked into hiring a whore or two once a month?
Others jump in to endorse the masturbation-and-prostitute strategy, and encourage him to cultivate his hatred of women by reading from the ample selection of stories on the site about evil, depraved, disgusting women. As fairi5fair puts it:
I go to college and still get the biochemical reactions that play into the mate-spawn-die script when I see a 20 year old with a candy apple ass and perky tits, but my growing understanding of women in general helps to make it less urgent and more negligible everyday.
A few others have more novel advice. Our friend womanhater suggests a trip to the mall:
Sit in the food court, and spend a good three hours there. Leisurely sip on some coffee, and simply watch.
See all the soulless men being dragged around by cupcake holding her bags. You’ll see the total absence of hope in the eyes of men in this trap. You’ll see his brain calculating the immense debt being run up, and yet he knows he’s fucked.
Pay attention to the stupid whores in training aged 15 or so, and simply listen the absolute shit running out of their mouth. Watch their behavior and internalize that every twat you see aged 25 was doing the exact same shit a decade ago.
Every time I start to feel my ghosting resolve start to slip, I go to the mall for a few hours. Clears my fucking head every time.
NewWorldMan suggests a sort of mind-over-boner strategy:
Sounds like BS, I know, but telling myself (actually saying the sentence in my head at the moment of attraction): “I control my dick, my dick doesn’t control me — actually works for me.
Frederick326 suggests an anatomy lesson:
Read up on vaginas. They’re fucking disgusting.
And fairi5fair also links to the (somewhat NSFW) video below. I’m not sure what exactly it’s supposed to accomplish other than to remind us that Japan leads the world in baffling entertainment product:
RocketFrog: Like I said, I don’t think there is an easy answer. If you’re not fundamentally “wired” for a sexless life, then there are always going to be times when living one makes you unhappy.
I don’t honestly think avoiding women altogether is a particularly helpful answer. (And, in fact, that’s not generally an accurate representation of the monastic life – a small subset of monks and nuns do live in seclusion, but most are still active within the larger community, and encounter members of the opposite gender on a daily basis.) If anything, I’d suspect seclusion would be a more frustrating situation, since it’d be cutting yourself off from a world full of opportunities for friendship, conversation, social activities, and other things that are as good as or better than sex in their own right.
May I ask why you think pursuing celibacy is something you might need or want to do? You’ve mentioned that you don’t see yourself as particularly attractive and that you have a neurological disability, which sounds like you mean to imply that romance is off the table because of those things – but even just within my personal experience, I’ve known people with severe deformities and people with severe mental and physical disabilities who have had romantic relationships. Sure, the pool of people who are willing to date them might be smaller than the pool of people who are willing to date a gorgeous, non-disabled, neurotypical person, but it’s definitely not nonexistent. If “I will never find someone anyway” is your line of thought, I think it’s one you should try to abandon, because it doesn’t sound like a path that will lead you anywhere happy, and it’s not particularly likely to be true.
Bagelsan writes: “You can’t know that you won’t find someone you like”.
I hope you do not find this offensive, and that you will forgive me if you do, but (as a GENERAL, but not universal, observation) this seems to be one of the big differences of perspective between sexually frustrated women and sexually frustrated men. Women cannot find someone they like, and men cannot find someone that likes them. Perhaps this is a function of the bizarre sexual economics of our culture, where sex is generally viewed as something women give to men, and something men take from women.
I would not be able to look back at a perfectly sexless life in my dying minute; I have had sex in my past. Nor would I consider sexlessness a success criterion for a life well lived. However, circumstances are as they are, and it would be nice to live a satisfying life without excessive frustration and misery, despite it being mostly or entirely devoid of sex or love.
I don’t mean to be cruel, RocketFrog, but I think that you’re asking a question that can’t be answered, and also asking the wrong people. You’re the only person who can resolve this issue in a way that will work best for you – how can anyone else outside your situation, who’s not in a similar situation themself, tell you what’s going to work for you?
Also, the fact that you’re asking it of a bunch of mostly female commenters on a feminist blog is problematic. Do you think it’s our job to resolve this situation for you? How could it be resolved, by someone outside yourself? Because the logical answer is “by women having sex with me”, and I think you already know why that’s not something that can happen in an ethically acceptable way unless the women themselves want to, and if they did you wouldn’t be asking the question, so…
It just seems to be skirting rather close to the idea that women owe men sex so that the men won’t be unhappy, and no one here is going to have much patience with that idea.
This just isn’t true; it’s a stereotype, and a very poorly-thought out one. Maybe women have a slightly easier time finding someone willing to stick a dick in them than men have finding someone to stick a dick into, but that’s not your goal anyways (nor is it mine.) And I promise that if you had zero standards you could have all the sex you could handle, just like a woman in your situation could. So honestly that stereotype about how women all have the option of getting fucked by someone is irrelevant here, because you have that option too and you have probably rejected it just like most women do.
Because presumably the kind of love you want is mutual, just like most everyone of every gender wants. And frankly if you say “men cannot find someone that likes them” it sounds like that includes themselves. For some women, “women cannot find someone they like” includes themselves too because people are really hard on themselves and we’re often shit at loving ourselves. So maybe it sounds trite or too armchair-psychology but if you liked and loved and found yourself sexy that would bring your number of people who thought that way up to “1”, and would probably make it more likely that that number could climb even more. Someone who loves themselves is obviously proven to be loveable to someone, right? That’s not a bad first step.
Xanthe:
“It seems the MGTOWers aren’t interested in women for companionship, and the desire for sex isn’t compelling enough for them to submit to working at a relationship with another human being who may have different priorities, desires, and goals from them.”
Personally, I think many of the ones that write about MGTOWdom on the internet seem completely obsessed with the companionship of women. Why else would they spend so much time and energy writing about it?
“If they have gone their own way, what companionship do they get? A nightly trip to the pub after work? Their only intimate encounters with another person then happens to be the short hour spent with the hooker they visit once a month? If that asceticism is by their own choice, when they do actually crave these things, then I think it’s a manifestly sad existence to lead.”
I agree, although I do not really associate trips to pubs or prostitutes with asceticism.
Although there’s a caveat: If they actually enjoy that life, then who am I to decree that their existence is a sad one?
“I think it is unhealthy for someone to attempt to suppress natural sexuality, whether that is a religious fundamentalist trying to “convert” homosexuals, or the practice of celibacy imposed from without or by the person.”
It probably is. In the best of all worlds, every human being so inclined would have great sex with willing partner(s) of their choice, and everyone involved would enjoy it. Also, frogs would have wings so they don’t bump their asses when they land. But in this world we live in, there are people who are sexual creatures but not sexually attractive, and sex is not a human right (although refusing sex *is* a human right). Therefore, there will be people who do not have sex, despite a wish to do so. And since nobody is entitled to anyone else’s body, this is an unfortunate but natural consequence of not living in the best of all worlds.
“In both cases there must be repression of their own feelings and urges.”
Yes, you’re absolutely correct. I am asking (as did Ed1974, the MGTOWer this thread is about) how and *if* this can be done without excessive misery and frustration.
RocketFrog, maybe it can’t be done without misery and frustration, but it sure as hell can be done without misogyny.
“RocketFrog, maybe it can’t be done without misery and frustration, but it sure as hell can be done without misogyny.”
Also, to repeat my previous questions more clearly – why is it the job of feminism/feminists to solve this problem, and/or why is it a problem that women should be expected to solve for the men in question? The act of asking that question of a group of women implies that you expect them to solve the problem, and again, there’s no way to do that without forcing some women into sex they don’t want.
@CassandraSays: No kidding; at the very least I would be a total femi-supremacist bigot and try solving it for the similarly-afflicted but totally ignored women first. :p
It frequently sounds like the wrong sort of companionship though – the oft-expressed preference of MGTOWers for non-Western women reflects a desire for a totally submissive woman who won’t insist on the man making compromises to remain with her, as opposed to someone who will expect the man to equally pull his weight at making the partnership work.
Anyway, to get to your question about involuntary celibacy and whether it can be done without excessive misery and frustration: the answer would surely have to be different for each individual, since none of us are stamped out from a cookie cutter. Polliwog’s suggestion of finding interests and pursuits that can be made an alternate focus of energy would perhaps work for many, but not necessarily all. (For some, such pursuits might exacerbate feelings of loneliness.)
I imagine where there are cases of excessive misery and depression, cognitive therapy and possibly some forms of medical intervention might be better options. I’m sorry but this is not something I’m familiar with, aside from the aspects of depression which I have on a chronic basis.
Hellkell: “RocketFrog, maybe it can’t be done without misery and frustration, but it sure as hell can be done without misogyny.”
Quoted. For. Truth.
CassandraSays:
No problem, I did not perceive you as being cruel (why would I? You didn’t write anything cruel.)
I bring this up because I have been reading Manboobz for a while, and this thread started out as being about a MGTOWer who asked a legitimate question that is close to my own mind, although he covered it in not-so-legitimate misogynistic blatherings. I read through the thread at MGTOWForums, and found that it – unsurprisingly – was full of more misogynistic blatherings. But since I think he asks a genuinely legitimate question, I think it is a question which deserves more than misogynistic blatherings for an answer.
Perhaps I did not explain myself well. I do not think that it is the “job” of strangers on the internet to do anything at all with respect to other people’s personal issues. I *certainly* do not think that the solution to the problem “a man is sexually unattractive and unhappy in his involuntary celibacy” is “women should have sex with him”. I do not believe that anyone *owes* anyone else sex, which is the entire reason WHY I am interested in how to live a celibate life without excessive unhappiness.
But at a less personal note, the MGTOW, Incel and similar communities are an indication that a significant number of people are unhappy in involuntary celibacy. It is impossible to ethically end involuntary celibacy (as that would logically reduce to forcing someone to have sex with someone they would not want to have sex with on their own accord, which would be a violation of their human rights), but perhaps it is possible for such people to not be too unhappy anyway.
Thing is, how can anyone answer that question unless they’re involuntarily celibate themselves? Those who are not celibate can’t, since they don’t have the relevant life experience, and those who’re celibate by choice can’t, since they actively chose that path.
I wouldn’t characterize MGTOW et al. as “involuntary” celibacy, though. Most of those guys have absolutely made their own beds, regarding not having women who like them in their lives, and are just whining about having to lie in them. They want things that do not exist (perfectly subservient and ageless hot women they can own) and refuse to settle for actual human beings, and they are throwing a tantrum about this reality. There is no cure for that kind of dumbassery.
RocketFrog, I don’t know if your question is answerable. I don’t know if the answer is maybe, sadly, “no” there is no way to live happily with involuntary celibacy. But I do know that those misogynists David quotes on this blog aren’t even asking that question — they are asking how to learn to hate women enough that they can suppress the urge to fuck us. Please don’t debase yourself by including yourself among their ranks. :p
It’s probably not the kind and helpful advice you’re looking for, but Amanda over at Pandagon has done some pretty excellent posts debunking the myth of the Unfuckable John — she’s seems to be in the camp of “no one is completely unfuckable, and certainly not the assholes who whine about how women owe them sex” which I think shoots down the MRA bullshit about how haaaard it is to be a heterosexual man. She also has a few posts about how to become more loveable, but it’s basically what Polliwog already said upthread about cultivating interests and living your life.
Exactly. MGTOW are celibate because they’re not prepared to deal with the compromises that everyone has to make in order to sustain a relationship. Like Meller, the reality is that robots that resemble women actually are the only viable answer for them. Actual women are not an option because we are people, not machines designed to serve their every whim.
Hellkell:
“RocketFrog, maybe it can’t be done without misery and frustration, but it sure as hell can be done without misogyny.”
Certainly! In my opinion, that is pretty much the difference between MGTOWers and celibate men in general. The latter group may or may not be misogynist, the former invariably are (in fact, when I just started reading this site, I had trouble understanding what your beef with MGTOWers was – that lasted right up until I read the hateful blatherings those people actually exude!).
I think the tendency for some male involuntary celibates to become misogynists is *precisely* due to a (more or less consciously held) view that they, as men, are entitled to sex with women. Apart from being a misogynist stance to begin with, it is also one that will inevitably lead to disappointment. Ironically, their misogyny probably makes them *less* attractive to women; people generally don’t want to have sex with (or even hang out with) people who genuinely hate them. This leads to even more disappointment, spin the vicious cycle a few times and you get the quintessential hateful MGTOWer.
Personally, I know women I despise, women I adore, and (mostly) women I’m indifferent to. The idea of a “woman-free life” – as described by Ed1974 on his MGTOWForum post – is an abhorrent thought to me; personally I have female friends and family members that I wouldn’t want to give up, and professionally I have female colleagues whose work I wouldn’t be able to do without.
It appears to me that asking whether someone can be happy with not having sex when they want sex is stupid; the answer is it is at best tolerable, and frankly, it doesn’t seem likely you’d actually be happy with that state of affairs (Though people do learn to enjoy less than ideal lives, so you probably can be happy with life *generally*).
But frankly, use of the phrase ‘involuntary celibacy’ leads me to believe you are part of the problem, unless youar e using the phrase to refer to a dry spell. Yes, the fact that there are unverbalized rules for dating is stupid, but those rules are learnable if you care, and pretty much anything that could possibly matter for dating strikes me as “If this is a problem, you need to correct it regardless of whether you’re dating” like hygiene.
I do dislike that phrase. The way it’s constructed implies unfairness, ie. that the person thus described shouldn’t have to be celibate, but they are, therefore someone is responsible for that state of affairs and should fix it. The phrase is steeped in the idea of entitlement to sex. I don’t think it’s an accident that MRAs chose it.
Bagelsan:
“So honestly that stereotype about how women all have the option of getting fucked by someone is irrelevant here, because you have that option too and you have probably rejected it just like most women do.”
I probably explained my point poorly, because that wasn’t what I meant. The “option” of having sex with someone that one sexually repulsed by is, in practice, a non-option. But, at least in my own experience, there does appear to be a difference in perspective. I’ve usually thought that it was probably a function of the “cultural sexual economics” in western culture, where sex is often viewed as something women give to men and men take from women (which always seemed bizarre and nonsensical to me). But perhaps it is because men generally are less likely to verbalize their standards than women are? I am not sure.
“[…] people are really hard on themselves and we’re often shit at loving ourselves. So maybe it sounds trite or too armchair-psychology but if you liked and loved and found yourself sexy that would bring your number of people who thought that way up to “1″”
I think quite a lot of people in this world do not love, or even like (in fact not even respect, accept or even tolerate) themselves. Many humans wish for themselves to be perfect, and reality will invariably disappoint.
I do not know if this is common for heterosexual men in general, but “feeling sexy” has always seemed a completely alien concept to me, for reasons I described upthread.
CassandraSays and Rutee Katreya:
I was not aware of those connotations of that term – and I also wasn’t aware it originated in the so-called Men’s Rights movement. In particular, I had just thought of the “involuntary” component to mean “something a person has not chosen for him- or herself” and nothing more. Is there a better term that does not carry those connotations?
“Single”? Really, I think that viewing it as a permanent state is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Bagelsan:
“[…] But I do know that those misogynists David quotes on this blog aren’t even asking that question — they are asking how to learn to hate women enough that they can suppress the urge to fuck us.”
You are right. It seems incredibly bizarre to me. If they hate women, why would they even *want* to have sex with women? If they want sex with women, then why would they want to hate them?
Perhaps I read too much into Ed1974’s post, but I thought there was a legitimate question hiding under all the misogynistic rantings.
It freaks me out a bit the Ed1974 is round about my age, going by the name. I tend to expect that kind of ranting from either very young or very old men – you’d think that men my age would be old enough to have acquired some wisdom about how to relate to people, and young enough not to be Meller.
CassandraSays:
I did not use “single” because it does not necessarily carry a “celibate” connotation – many single people have sex all the time. I was trying to be more precise.
(I started out using the term “living asexually”, but when Polliwog used the term “celibate” I chose to use that, since I do not wish to offend asexual people.)
I’m still sort of baffled as to how you came to the conclusion that there was a valid point underneath all Ed1974 sexist babbling, to be honest. And still not happy about any suggestion that this is a problem for women/feminists to solve. For the women who’re in that position themselves, sure, on an individual basis, but bringing it up here carries an unmistakeable suggestion that we should solve that problem for the men complaining about it. Which is not OK.