Consider the plight of the poor, horny Man Going His Own Way. He may have convinced himself that women are icky monsters out to highjack his sperm and steal his money. He may have convinced himself we live in a femi-fascist gynocracy out to destroy men and civilization generally. Yet his disobedient penis can’t stop thinking about sex with these evil, filthy women.
And so he turns to his fellow MGTOWers to ask for help: what can I do, my brethren, to stop popping so many boners? Ed1974, a newbie on MGTOWforums.com, puts it this way in a plaintive recent post:
[M]ore than almost anything I want to be woman-free and contentment to live a woman-free life. For more or less all of my adult life I’ve played in to society’s demands that I have to have a woman, and preferably a pretty woman, in my life. I’ve done a lot of Internet dating and every friggin time I get involved with a woman I regret it. Either I just want to get some ass and the woman wants a lot more than that and makes a mess out of my life when I leave, or I end up spending way more money than I ever wanted to spend just to have her grace my life with her presence, or something else that fucks up my life. The bottom line is I sincerely want to live a life without the desire to have a woman in my life.
So Ed is taking steps to quell his desire:
1. I downloaded a firewall blocking all dating sites.
2. I’m going to read as many books on misandry that I can.
3. I’m going to take myself out of situations where I can get in trouble, such as bars.
4. I’m going to fill free time that I would normally spend out with some woman with something productive.
I also want to remember the bad times where I’ve had women who I’ve tried to get out of my life end up stalking me for months on end. And to be perfectly honest, I want to remember the time I got the clap from some skank. I also want to remember that I should be thankful that I’m not a baby daddy and I’ve never had any false rape charges against me.
Alas, but poor pretty Eddie is afraid that this won’t be enough, and begs the assembled MGTOWers for “other steps I should take.”
Site admin Nacho Vidal suggests he go another way entirely:
My advice would be to scrap the ‘steps’ you’ve taken and take your wanking up a notch! Also, have you looked into hiring a whore or two once a month?
Others jump in to endorse the masturbation-and-prostitute strategy, and encourage him to cultivate his hatred of women by reading from the ample selection of stories on the site about evil, depraved, disgusting women. As fairi5fair puts it:
I go to college and still get the biochemical reactions that play into the mate-spawn-die script when I see a 20 year old with a candy apple ass and perky tits, but my growing understanding of women in general helps to make it less urgent and more negligible everyday.
A few others have more novel advice. Our friend womanhater suggests a trip to the mall:
Sit in the food court, and spend a good three hours there. Leisurely sip on some coffee, and simply watch.
See all the soulless men being dragged around by cupcake holding her bags. You’ll see the total absence of hope in the eyes of men in this trap. You’ll see his brain calculating the immense debt being run up, and yet he knows he’s fucked.
Pay attention to the stupid whores in training aged 15 or so, and simply listen the absolute shit running out of their mouth. Watch their behavior and internalize that every twat you see aged 25 was doing the exact same shit a decade ago.
Every time I start to feel my ghosting resolve start to slip, I go to the mall for a few hours. Clears my fucking head every time.
NewWorldMan suggests a sort of mind-over-boner strategy:
Sounds like BS, I know, but telling myself (actually saying the sentence in my head at the moment of attraction): “I control my dick, my dick doesn’t control me — actually works for me.
Frederick326 suggests an anatomy lesson:
Read up on vaginas. They’re fucking disgusting.
And fairi5fair also links to the (somewhat NSFW) video below. I’m not sure what exactly it’s supposed to accomplish other than to remind us that Japan leads the world in baffling entertainment product:
You mean the way you dismiss and mock anything ever said by MRAs? We’re just coming back to what I originally said, that you are utterly incapable of considering anyone else’s reality or point of view except your own. When men complain about anything, you laugh at them, yet you expect them to empathize with you and take everything you say seriously. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way.
They’re the same thing. I’m not going to engage in a semantics argument with you, so take your tedious nitpicking elsewhere.
Of course there are. They just aren’t very common, and when they do happen, are roundly condemned, as you say.
Nope. I believe that they think it happened (for the most part). I just don’t agree.
And that just kills you, doesn’t it? 😛
Wait a second… you’re not using personal anecdata, are you?
For those examples, yes. But count how many times something like that actually happened, as opposed to “this guy was totally standing in my personal space!” or “eww, some creep said hello to me when I didn’t want to be bothered!”
Heroicman:
Surely the latter is a good thing, given the sentiments expressed by the people quoted in the OP? I’m being facetious, admittedly, but not much.
And yet many of these men decide that it’s all the women’s fault and end up writing the kind of drivel that’s rightly mocked on this site – and self-defeating drivel at that, as it so clearly leads them smack into a brick wall instead of opening up options that might actually improve their lives.
Success with women has nothing to do with being ‘alphas’, ‘betas’ and ‘omegas’ and everything to do with how much you regard them as human beings of equal value to yourself, and how much your behavior towards them demonstrates that you genuinely think this (because it’s not too hard to detect ulterior motives).
If you only regard women as passive dolls or ‘meat holes’ (and often it’s pretty obvious that you hold those attitudes even if you’re not so indelicate as to express them outright), you really shouldn’t be too surprised if they look at you and decide “no thanks”. After all, what on earth is in it for them? The guy behind Omega Virgin Revolt (or whatever its new name is) can whine all he likes about being a virgin at 33, but you only have to spend twenty seconds on his blog to realize just why women seem to give him the widest possible berth – he appears to regard them as literally subhuman.
How irrational do you think women are? I don’t think I could operate this keyboard if I was that stupid.
Do you have some sort of mental filter where when a woman says something like “he used the address on my check to follow me home,” all you hear is “he said hello and I like totally get to decide who says hello to me”? People have described numerous specific incidents and none of those were the prissy-princess stuff you’re talking about.
Subway groping is a known phenomenon. It happens so frequently that many large city police forces have to enact special programs to go after offenders, many of whom have been arrested dozens of times for the behavior. I recall reading about one guy in New York City who’d been arrested 53 times for rubbing his genitals against women on the subway. The majority of women who are groped on public transportation do not report it.
Broseidon: They’re the same thing. I’m not going to engage in a semantics argument with you, so take your tedious nitpicking elsewhere.
No, they aren’t. You don’t want to be correct in your use of language (I can see why, when people keep you to defending your original position, the specious nature of your claims is plain), fine, but the “it’s just semantics is a cop out, and as specious; and tendentious, as grammar copping otherwise comprehensible comments.
Words have meanings, and; before you were so plaining being schooled, you were more than willing to talk about what people did; now that you are being given examples and evidence that your original position isn’t really defensible, “it’s all semantics.”
Which is another form of moving goalposts
Of course there are. They just aren’t very common, and when they do happen, are roundly condemned, as you say.
Nope. I say they are not. I even gave a personal example (as have others here). You are responding with, “I don’t see it, so it must not be really happening; but I’m not saying you are lying, just oversensitive”.
Wait a second… you’re not using personal anecdata, are you?
Yep. Because in this case it’s relevant. What I’m not doing is using it to generalise. I’ve used it to illustrate that this thing you say isn’t happening (because you’ve not seen it) is happening. As such it’s topical, relevant and even valid: in that you made a fact claim; this sort of behavior is so uncommon that it’s pretty much only oversensitive [or man-hating] women who see it, and then it’s not really all that bad, or men would intervene to stop it.
This, like your claim on semantics, is diversionary. I note that you have actually disengaged from the topic (that harassment is common) and now are trying to divert it to methodology.
When, however, people tell you that they have had such things done to them, and no one has said shit about it, you say, “well then it must not have really happened.”
Nope. I believe that they think it happened (for the most part). I just don’t agree.
Way to have the courage of your convictions. You won’t call them liars, outright, but when they give you examples you, “Believe they think it happened,” which is to say you don’t think it happened. In short they are wrong. That is to say that, you have determined they are speaking an untruth.
A left handed accusation of lying.
You’ve got it pegged exactly. It’s confirmation bias.
That particular guy seemed to be on the clueless end of the spectrum, and would probably have been surprised to know that I was terrified of him — even though he called me five times in an hour and knocked on my own door not twenty minutes after I’d picked up my food. Other guys, particularly the ones who press their crotches against me on the bus, or lick their V’d fingers, very clearly know exactly what they are doing.
Honestly, I think you’re giving yourself too much credit. We tend not to notice threatening or creepy behavior when it’s not directed at us. Even women downplay stuff that has happened–I had a conversation with a male friend where I mentioned that I’d only been inappropriately touched once since I arrived here (this guy caressed my hair on the bus–trust me, not ambiguous). Later on in the conversation, I mentioned a date where this guy hadn’t heard my several nos, and really upset me, and he was like, wait, you said once, and I said, oh, yeah, but that was someone I knew. Many women will say that nothing serious has happened to them, but if you draw them out, you’ll hear about a lot of pretty serious and scary stuff. I used to say that, until I realized that someone who had a stalker who required police intervention at sixteen probably shouldn’t.
And women aren’t talking about stuff like, “This guy was looking at me funny.” They’re saying stuff like, “This guy said I had nice tits.” That’s not subjective. Either the guy commented on your tits or he didn’t. You agree that that’s an unpleasant thing to hear, right?
And yeah, chalk me up as one of those daily-basis people.
The thing is, men tend not to do this where other men can see and intervene. And I have never, never been harassed when I’ve been with a male friend or partner. They do it when women are alone, and they often do it quietly. It’s plausible deniability. You remember playing “I’m not touching youuuuuuuuu….” with your siblings during car trips? It’s like that.
I can tell you that I currently get at least several catcalls a day as I walk around the city center, usually from much older men. They’re a local variety: quiet, in passing, a few words muttered over your shoulder. It’s not just a creepy feeling–older men do this when I walk by. I can also tell you that my male friends are absolutely shocked that this happens constantly and even more shocked that old guys are the ones doing it. They know that catcalls happen, and they’re okay with the idea, but they think that it’s nice young men like themselves complimenting beautiful women on their appearance. They’re incredulous when they hear about the Creepy Grandpa Goodwill Army. Because they’ve never heard it themselves.
They don’t tell me I’m lying or just not hearing the creepy grandpas correctly, though.
Shorter Pecunium: “Here’s an essay about how when you do something you’re wrong, but when I do the exact same thing I’m right.” Anyway, tl;dr.
The fact that most men who engage in harassing behavior wouldn’t do so in front of another man doesn’t figure into it at all for you? Huh.
Bingo
Nope, I already said I agree some things do count as harassment. They’re just not as grave or as common as you make them sound. Why is it that some women see creepiness and harassment everywhere, while others experience it so rarely they don’t even think about it? There’s confirmation bias here, but not on my part.
Broseidon: Shorter Pecunium: “Here’s an essay about how when you do something you’re wrong, but when I do the exact same thing I’m right.” Anyway, tl;dr.
The tl:dr, is why you are wrong. Showing that we did two different things, is showing that we did two different things.
I could have just said, “Dude… you did it wrong, I did it right”, but that’s not a valid argument.
If you understood that, you’d be more skillful at convincing people.
Broseison: For those examples, yes. But count how many times something like that actually happened, as opposed to “this guy was totally standing in my personal space!” or “eww, some creep said hello to me when I didn’t want to be bothered!
Lets see, in the incident I was talking about… it was five times that the person made a physical contact which was undesired. The invasions of personal space were so consistent that she arranged to have at least one person (and more often two) with her at all times she was in public spaces at the conference for the final 36 hours.
And I am sure you are just fine with people invading your personal space. Things like a man’s crotch four inches from your face on the subway… no problems. Someone who is in contact with you on the elevator (crowded, but he’s the only one who’s touching anyone else), no problem.
Just women being, “too sensitive”
“And I am sure you are just fine with people invading your personal space. Things like a man’s crotch four inches from your face on the subway… no problems. Someone who is in contact with you on the elevator (crowded, but he’s the only one who’s touching anyone else), no problem.”
Happens in crowded spaces all the time. Now if there were three people on the bus and a guy’s crotch was four inches from my face, that’d be a problem. But otherwise I don’t see the issue.
Guys… We have been “doin it rong!”. Broseidon knows what harassment is. If we just admit that ladybranes aren’t capable of recognising real harassment, and let Broseidon inform us of when women have been harassed, then his perception of the world will match other people’s reality.
So simple that a child could do it, which is probably why all you women didn’t think of it, and needed Broseidon to figure it out.
Nope, I already said I agree some things do count as harassment. They’re just not as grave or as common as you make them sound. Why is it that some women see creepiness and harassment everywhere, while others experience it so rarely they don’t even think about it? There’s confirmation bias here, but not on my part.
That’s not a sensible way to think about a group phenomenon–and it certainly doesn’t mean that the intellectually honest approach is to choose the group of outliers that confirm your own biases. Most women report a certain level of harassment. For most women, it’s not occasional. And most women report a steady-stream of lower-level incidences that are exactly the sort of thing a normal person wouldn’t notice from a bystander’s point of view.
And as far as differences between women–think about the differences in normal lives. If I drove my car to work, I wouldn’t have to deal with the subway and the sidewalk. If I worked in an office, I wouldn’t have to deal with customers. If I worked a day shift, I wouldn’t have to walk home after dark. If I lived in the suburbs, I would probably never see my neighbors. There’s nothing mysterious about any of this, let alone suspect.
The tl:dr, is why you are wrong. Showing that we did two different things, is showing that we did two different things.
I could have just said, “Dude… you did it wrong, I did it right”, but that’s not a valid argument.
If you understood that, you’d be more skillful at convincing people.
I understand that your schtick is writing out long, tedious essays until the other party gets bored and gives up, letting you declare victory. You’re not the first nor the last to use this strategy. And your link doesn’t work.
Honestly, I don’t experience these things every day. I never claimed to.
(Then again, I have a car. When I’m walking or on public transit, the incidence goes way up. And I tend to not “count” incidents at work because I put those in a different mental category, but they happen all the time too.)
But I do experience them. It’s not some myth. It’s also pretty disturbing when it happens. I always hear men tell me about women who “just don’t let it bother them,” or “take it as a compliment,” but I very rarely hear that from women themselves.
Happens in crowded spaces all the time. Now if there were three people on the bus and a guy’s crotch was four inches from my face, that’d be a problem. But otherwise I don’t see the issue.
See how you just assumed that the guy had a good reason to be doing that, and that the woman didn’t have a good reason to think of it as a problem? Even though she’s probably been on a crowded bus before? That’s your bias talking.
For the record, I didn’t say four inches. I said one. That, in addition to looking up and seeing him staring down at me and smiling made it very clear that he was doing it on purpose.
Regarding the issue of perception, no one here has argued that because some men harass that means that all men are like this. We all know that isn’t true. In fact, recent research indicates that it’s actually a fairly small percent of men who commit the vast majority of sexual assaults.
Now, on the other hand, you MRAs do indeed claim that ALL women are materialistic money grubbing whores based on the actions of a few. That’s where the main difference lies.
Broseidon: Happens all the time? I’ve spent a lot of time on the bus/subway. The number of times I’ve had someone’s (anyone’s) groin that close to my face is in the single digits (and that’s on the WTC PATH in rush hour crowds).
If you see it happening in crowded spaces all the time I think you are probably oversensitive to how close men stand to you.
Here’s the link: http://hoydenabouttown.com/20110601.10055/bingo-card-my-need-for-female-attention-outweighs-your-lack-of-interest-or-sense-of-safety/
Don’t play dense. If a guy shoved his crotch in your face–not got caught in an awkward position with you, shoved it and looked down at you with a shit-eating “this is like a blowjob, haw haw” grin on his face, I think you’d know damn well what he meant by it.
Wetherby commented:
“Success with women has nothing to do with being ‘alphas’, ‘betas’ and ‘omegas’ and everything to do with how much you regard them as human beings of equal value to yourself, and how much your behavior towards them demonstrates that you genuinely think this (because it’s not too hard to detect ulterior motives)
And yet many of these men decide that it’s all the women’s fault and end up writing the kind of drivel that’s rightly mocked on this site – and self-defeating drivel at that, as it so clearly leads them smack into a brick wall instead of opening up options that might actually improve their lives. ”
I have a question for you based on your comment.
What kind of options do you mean that can end up improving mens lives?
I guess these mra guys who blame women for their reduced libido is they feel they were rejected in high school or college by women and now as these guys approach their 30’s and 40’s they do not want to let go of the bitterness of the past they may have had with women.
Holly commented” (Also, if my experience with online porn and sex toys is any indicator, most people will play with their sexbots and have relationships, either simultaneously or at different stages in their lives.)”
Ami asked me” What’s your point?”
Holly I see your point. The problem is there is too much pornography for men these days. I am not against Pornography. It can be a great aid in a relationship. There is too much of it these days. Now even smart phones and ipads have porn at your fingertips. Now with sexbots, it is just another option.
What the NY Mag article pointed out is a man may get so used to masturbating to porn alone, he may not be able to perform with a real woman in an intimate relationship. Generally, porn actresses have superb physical features that ordinary woman may not possess. This can cause a man to lose attraction to his wife or girlfriend because he is so used to the image of a woman on a computer screen.