Consider the plight of the poor, horny Man Going His Own Way. He may have convinced himself that women are icky monsters out to highjack his sperm and steal his money. He may have convinced himself we live in a femi-fascist gynocracy out to destroy men and civilization generally. Yet his disobedient penis can’t stop thinking about sex with these evil, filthy women.
And so he turns to his fellow MGTOWers to ask for help: what can I do, my brethren, to stop popping so many boners? Ed1974, a newbie on MGTOWforums.com, puts it this way in a plaintive recent post:
[M]ore than almost anything I want to be woman-free and contentment to live a woman-free life. For more or less all of my adult life I’ve played in to society’s demands that I have to have a woman, and preferably a pretty woman, in my life. I’ve done a lot of Internet dating and every friggin time I get involved with a woman I regret it. Either I just want to get some ass and the woman wants a lot more than that and makes a mess out of my life when I leave, or I end up spending way more money than I ever wanted to spend just to have her grace my life with her presence, or something else that fucks up my life. The bottom line is I sincerely want to live a life without the desire to have a woman in my life.
So Ed is taking steps to quell his desire:
1. I downloaded a firewall blocking all dating sites.
2. I’m going to read as many books on misandry that I can.
3. I’m going to take myself out of situations where I can get in trouble, such as bars.
4. I’m going to fill free time that I would normally spend out with some woman with something productive.
I also want to remember the bad times where I’ve had women who I’ve tried to get out of my life end up stalking me for months on end. And to be perfectly honest, I want to remember the time I got the clap from some skank. I also want to remember that I should be thankful that I’m not a baby daddy and I’ve never had any false rape charges against me.
Alas, but poor pretty Eddie is afraid that this won’t be enough, and begs the assembled MGTOWers for “other steps I should take.”
Site admin Nacho Vidal suggests he go another way entirely:
My advice would be to scrap the ‘steps’ you’ve taken and take your wanking up a notch! Also, have you looked into hiring a whore or two once a month?
Others jump in to endorse the masturbation-and-prostitute strategy, and encourage him to cultivate his hatred of women by reading from the ample selection of stories on the site about evil, depraved, disgusting women. As fairi5fair puts it:
I go to college and still get the biochemical reactions that play into the mate-spawn-die script when I see a 20 year old with a candy apple ass and perky tits, but my growing understanding of women in general helps to make it less urgent and more negligible everyday.
A few others have more novel advice. Our friend womanhater suggests a trip to the mall:
Sit in the food court, and spend a good three hours there. Leisurely sip on some coffee, and simply watch.
See all the soulless men being dragged around by cupcake holding her bags. You’ll see the total absence of hope in the eyes of men in this trap. You’ll see his brain calculating the immense debt being run up, and yet he knows he’s fucked.
Pay attention to the stupid whores in training aged 15 or so, and simply listen the absolute shit running out of their mouth. Watch their behavior and internalize that every twat you see aged 25 was doing the exact same shit a decade ago.
Every time I start to feel my ghosting resolve start to slip, I go to the mall for a few hours. Clears my fucking head every time.
NewWorldMan suggests a sort of mind-over-boner strategy:
Sounds like BS, I know, but telling myself (actually saying the sentence in my head at the moment of attraction): “I control my dick, my dick doesn’t control me — actually works for me.
Frederick326 suggests an anatomy lesson:
Read up on vaginas. They’re fucking disgusting.
And fairi5fair also links to the (somewhat NSFW) video below. I’m not sure what exactly it’s supposed to accomplish other than to remind us that Japan leads the world in baffling entertainment product:
I wonder how long it will take for one of the trolls to accuse us of being evil to men by acknowledging that they can be hurt or scared by women too, and not just via false rape allegations?
The funny thing for me, working around the entertainment world, is how much the dynamics end up mirroring the way women are treated in terms of which guys get creeped on most and why. If they’re perceived as femmey at all, fans don’t respect their boundaries (they’re much more respectful of the space of the more macho guys). I don’t think it’s conscious, but it’s a clear pattern. If they’re perceived as slutty, fans think it’s OK to grope. I saw one girl reach up and grab a guy’s crotch in the middle of a show when he came to the edge of the stage, and people couldn’t understand why he looked freaked out, because you see he wears such sexy clothes, obviously he wants women to be attracted to him, so why would he mind someone grabbing his crotch without his permission?
It’s the exact same set of ideas, transposed onto men instead of women. It’s been pretty eye-opening in terms of scoping out exactly what those ideas about who is officially harassable and why are, and how people justify the creepy behavior to themselves.
Which is why I have no patience with idiots like Broseidon. It’s like trying to discuss astrophysics with someone who failed high school algebra because they spent the whole class doodling on the desk and staring out the window.
And yet I see guys teasing and trash-talking each other all the time without filing harassment charges and restraining orders against each other. Funny.
What’s your point? o_O If guys don’t want to be teased and trash-talked and it persists, that’s still harassment and bullying.
Do you not believe guys can be harassed? o_O
More like “this is something that happens in the alleged experiences of feminist women on blogs created for the purpose of bashing and mocking men”. Should I give equal credibility to all MRAs talking about how they got screwed over by their bitch ex-wives, or shot down and humiliated in public for trying to approach a woman, or been victims of false rape charges? After all, those are things that happen in their experiences. Why are they less valid than your experiences? This is the problem, you’re sitting there and claiming that your view is valid and everyone else’s is wrong. And now I’m off to sleep.
I dunno, you can do whatever you want xD
The real question is, how DO you decide who to believe on the internet? I mean you as in you, not the generic you. Obviously you DO make these decisions. xD It’s a weird strawman to say “GEE YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE EVERY SINGLE PERSON EVAR!?” Presumably your thinking is not that black and white, and you believe SOME stuff you read online. So how do you make these decisions normally? o:
I just missed the new troll 🙁 He seemed amusing xD
I love when trolls announce they are sleeping, or have to go eat, or have to go to the washroom (for all time) or w/e else they do to let us know “GODDAMMIT STOP ARGUING WITH ME, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO LEAVE MY COMPUTER AND NOT FREAK OUT THAT SOMEBODY IS MOCKING ME, IT”S OVER, I WANT TO DECLARE VICTORY AND NOT OBSESS OVER THIS THREAD” xD
The best part is that I think this is the one who a few weeks back was asking for advice on how to approach a woman who he wanted sex but not a relationship with. Which we gave. But still, we exist only to mock and attack men – not MRAs, all men. And our opions mean NOTHING, NOTHING I TELL YOU, unless he needs help in dealing with a lady friend, and then suddenly our experiences in terms of knowing how women like to be approached become valid. Until the next time we don’t agree with him.
Trolls are funny.
“And considering all of the above, doesn’t it kind of imply in the end that women get to dictate how men should behave, while men have to listen and obey? That’s a bit misandric isn’t it?”
No, no. Act whatever way you like. Seriously. Just don’t expect people to like you. You can’t force people to like you or accept your “creepy” or “douchebaggy” behavior. You prolly think we’re “creepy” or “douchebaggy”, us bossy women mocking men for being themselves. We don’t care cos we have happy relationships with lots of different kinds of people, so it must mean we’re doing something right lol.
If you ever wonder why you don’t have friends or can’t get laid, you may want to reassess how you approach social situations. I didn’t really have many friends until I realised I was up my own hole the entire time lol. So I changed. I mean, I’m still me, but I’m a nicer me =)
So no, we’re not going to dictate who you should be, or how you should behave. We can say what we think is socially acceptable but it is your decision whether or not to take our advice. You don’t want to be miserable forever do you?
Darksidecat commented”Ah, the classic “I hate women, but I want to fuck them” MGTOW dilemma.”
Blackbloc also commented “They often claim the MRM is a male counterpart to feminism, why don’t the MGTOW figure it out and decide they’re the male counterpart to lesbian separatism? ”
Just so you know Blackbloc I know a few MGTOW guy who are married or have girlfriends. For some men, MGTOW means going their own way but it does mean it is up to the individual MGTOW man to decide if he wants to be married or in a relationship with a women. They just want it clear that MGTOW guys do not seek woman’s approval and are more into transcending traditional male gender roles as opposed to PUA men who are mainly into sleeping around with women.
Some MGTOW guys are married or in relationships, some are equivalent to the male counterpart to lesbian separatism. It is up to the individual MGHOW (MAN Going His Own Way) to decide how her wants to relate to women.
Lastly, Magnesium commented “There’s always joining a monastery.”
Seriously, though, it’s probably better for everyone everywhere that these fella’s removed themselves from the dating pool.”
Not really Magnesium.You shouldn’t make a blanket statement for a group of MGTOW men. MGTOW men are not monolithic. Some MGTOW have removed themselves from the dating pool and have become sort of like monks as you implied.
This is exemplified in a popular MGTOW website/forum called “Happy Bachelors” However, some MGTOW men choose to still date women and are guys that potentially can make good husbands or boyfriends.
Many MGTOW men are educated, affluent, love discussing gender issues with women and care about gender equality for all
If some women call men “creepy” for no reason, this is no different than men labeling women as money-hungry users (if they date someone richer than you) or cock-riding irresponsible sluts who can’t appreciate a “good man” (if they date someone poorer than you). I’ve seen these accusations made over and over without the least factual basis to support them, by men who are clearly more willing to invoke tired misogynistic tropes rather than allow for the slightest possibility that maybe their own reprehensible behavior is a factor in losing relationships or their inability to get a date. It is human nature to try to rationalize one’s own misdeeds and seek to absolve oneself of any blame by piling on someone else. What I DON’T see, however, is women going on and on about how gross and disgusting men and their penises are as a way to get back at the “gold-digger” label. That kind of discourse — what was mocked in this post — comes from a tradition of privilege, thousands of years of giving legitimacy to woman-bashing views, no matter how ludicrous. Just like Broseidon giving them default legitimacy now.
Let’s see, Happy Bachelors forums… “American/Western Women Behavior, confessions, and whore stories” is its own section, can’t get any further without registering. On the blog, we have such gems as “Bachelors are single precisely because they know what woman is, will be, and has been.”
Don’t have time at the moment to look any further, but I am entirely certain that this blog has no real issues with women in general. [/sarcasm]
Zhinxy commented “It’s so much a part of our daily lives, we basically shrug and accept it as normal unless it gets “really bad” – And it’s not feminist spaces. It’s everyday ordinary conversation with women, practically every woman I’ve ever known. Conservative women and liberal women and old women and young women and cis women and trans women and all women. We cant’ talk to you guys directly about it, because of how you react and explain it away to us. But feminist spaces give us a space to simply talk to each other like all women do, when you aren’t there. And not just feminist women. If the women in your lives don’t tell you how ordinary this is, it’s because you refuse to admit it’s ordinary. And because it is SO ordinary to us.”
There you go Zhinxy. MGTOW spaces on the internet are the equivalent of the feminist spaces you just commented about. MGTOW philosophy does not necessarily have to exclude female input. Various MRA/MGTOW forums on the internet give men a venue to bond and be honest in their opinions pertaining to gender relations that they would not normally talk about with their wives or girlfriends, or even at work.
MGTOW philosophy is about allowing a human to “do their own thing”, whatever is good for that individual Sort of like libertarian individualism. In this essence, a WGTOW Woman Going Her Own Way could be a particular women who has decided to remain unmarried, childless, and focused mainly on her career. This WGTOW has decided to go against society telling women they must marry, have a child, or be a homemaker to be whole. Some women contribute to various MGTOW/MRA forums and blogs on the internet,
Not really Magnesium.You shouldn’t make a blanket statement for a group of MGTOW men. MGTOW men are not monolithic. Some MGTOW have removed themselves from the dating pool and have become sort of like monks as you implied.
This is exemplified in a popular MGTOW website/forum called “Happy Bachelors” However, some MGTOW men choose to still date women and are guys that potentially can make good husbands or boyfriends.
Many MGTOW men are educated, affluent, love discussing gender issues with women and care about gender equality for all
Did somebody use the washing machine just earlier? I think we just found a sock.
I don’t think so, Ami. The grammar is too good.
[puts a burqa on her avatar just in case]
The last guy I called a creep to his face was a stranger who approached me in a coffee shop and said, “I just wanted to tell you I find you extremely desirable.” That was his opening. No “Hey, did I see you at yoga” or “Nice hat!” I flipped out, which i don’t normally do in that situation, and said “PLEASE GO AWAY AND LEAVE ME ALONE, YOU CREEP” or words to that effect.
(Yeah, I said please. This is Canada, after all.)
Fortunately being visibly pregnant is fairly sure-fire insurance against being creeped on. Not 100%, but it helps.
See, you’re not even understanding what Zhinxy just said. It’s not a matter of honesty; it’s a matter of “This is so ordinary it doesn’t *merit mention*.
Did you read the motherfucking OP or not? Seriously, trying to sell this bullshit in the comments of a post specifically about YET ANOTHER MISOGYNIST JACKASS spewing tripe in a MGTOW forum is tiresome.
Bro: No, I was talking about 99% of the guys who are labeled as creepy. If you’re going to twist and misinterpret my words, at least make it more subtle.
But that’s not what you actually said: “Only problem with that is, 99% of guys in fact do not talk that way and are still labeled “creepy” just because they aren’t attractive enough or you’re in a bad mood that day.”
If you’re going to get all huffy, use grammar that makes your preferred interpretation the correct one. When you choose to make inane statements which are in keeping with your previous behavior, you shouldn’t be surprised if people take them as read.
Grammar, it’s your friend.
You can have whatever standards you want, I won’t tell you how to behave.
Yes you will. You may couch it in language that pretends to be observations, but you are saying women are wrong to behave that way. That’s a statement which implies, at the very least, they ought not do it.
Based on personal knowledge and observation, I agree to disagree.
No, you don’t. You respond with attempts to paint people who argue that creepy is in the eye of the beholder, and that those who are shrill and defensive in response (as opposed to those who might say things like, “I can see why someone might decide that, but it’s overreaction to make it a class-statement”) might know that there is a lot of creepy in the world.
You also, in your, “above it all” stance, are telling women (see above) that they ought not make such judgements, or that; if they do, they need to keep it to themselves, because it might hurt someone’s reputation.
From personal experience, your wrong. Yes, having someone talk about one as creepy can be a pain, but if one isn’t creepy, the effect is to make things a bit awkward. But women are, actually, perfectly rational, and willing to (often to their detriment in some ways, their benefit in others; just like men) suspend judgment until they collect personal evidence.
They are also, actually (as I am watching this play out; with someone who was being creepy in a very public setting) prone to trying to minimize the situation, if it’s at all possible to give the man the benefit of some doubt (and this a pretty feminist woman).
You’re asking me to believe something that goes against my personal observations, based on the word of a few vocal feminists on a male-bashing blog. I think a little skepticism is justified.
Right… Women are telling you their personal experience, and you’re telling them your personal experience trumps theirs, and they are silly to be disagreeing with you.
I see guys teasing and trash-talking each other all the time without filing harassment charges and restraining orders against each other. Funny.
Not funny at all. Those guys aren’t violating each others boundaries. Those guys aren’t worried that one of them will decide they are attractive, and follow them home. They aren’t worried that if something like that happens they will be blamed for it, because they led him on by “trash talking and teasing”.
The situations aren’t analogous.
And you wonder why you get so little traction with your style of argument.
MRAL, I know you’re probably freaked out by saying sensible things the other day, but just a cursory search of your past comments here can disprove the gem you just spouted.
MRAL:Also, I’m not dumb in any situation,
You’re human, of course you are occasionally dumb. More to the point, you’ve been stupid here, (sock-puppets, violent language) some of which you’ve admitted was less than smart.
Heck, saying you aren’t ever such, was dumb, so you are wrong, Q.E.D.
Broseidon: That I can believe. I’ve rarely seen more single-minded dogpiling onto any dissenting opinion than in this place
Don’t get out much do you? Really. Go to someplace where politics is being discussed. Start talking about how the policies of the guy being praised are silly/wrong (or how the policies of the person they are hating on are correct).
Then try to keep up with the responses.
Or, for a more topical sort of fun, go to The Spearhead and disagree with an OP, or a well-liked commenter; say women are rational, and they might have some reasons for being upset with some men.
“You don’t get to tell other people what their reality is, and it’s hilarious that you think you must know better than they do what happens in their lives.”
And yet the gang here has no trouble doing exactly that to those who disagree with their view of reality.
And you complained about people reading your words the way you actually wrote them? Those are some good Irony Deflector Shields.
Because that’s not what happened. You made a statement of fact (that women don’t experience the level of harrasment women say they experience). People said they do, and gave examples, as well as explanatory reasons you might not have noticed.
That’s not telling anyone they don’t know what happens in their lives, but that they are ignorant of what happens in other people’s lives. You don’t seem to want to admit that (it would, after all, undermine your case), instead saying they are telling you that your experience is wrong, rather than explaining why it might be you failed to notice theirs.
Pecunium: We’re way more polite than the Spearhead: we never call anyone manginas.
Heroicman: It’s kind of amazing how… benign you make MGTOW seem. Almost like allies!.Too bad it’s not actualy the case.
MRAL: You really ought to do some reading about biases and heuristics. Taleb’s Fooled By Randomness is great, mostly because he keeps snarking at MBAs /and/ he cites my boy Solon. Once you’ve read a little about that, you won’t think humans are smart ever again. 😉 Our brains were hacked together by evolution to find the best berries and we’re using them to figure out the nature of the universe; no wonder we’re so stupid.
I am also puzzled at the source of your hostility to me; it seems disproportionate. I believe I have never insulted you and I apologize if I have and have forgotten. You may be prone to occasional rages and truly inaccurate views of women, but you’re no DKM.
I’m guessing the hostility is that a. you’re both of similar age and b. he’s jealous that you’re getting laid more, and getting more of the non-sex benefits of relationships like affection, attention, etc than he is. It may be easier to make direct comparisons because of the similarity in age. I notice that the other person he gets really angry towards in a personal way is Holly, though, so part of it is definitely the sex blogging.
I wonder if he realises that those of us who don’t have sex blogs are mostly getting plenty to, it just doesn’t happen to be something we blog about. Maybe he does realise that, but it stings less if we’re a lot older than he is.
Ozy: He’s hostile to a lot of people. It goes in waves. I think part of it is that he wants reactions; and some specific ones. He was/is hostile to me, Holly, Ami, you. I don’t know why, because I don’t know him. All I have to go by is who/how he reacts, which isn’t enough to make public speculation.
Pecunium: We’re way more polite than the Spearhead: we never call anyone manginas
But Ozy.. we call people USians, and say some men are creepy, and it’s impossible to tell which men are rapists.
That’s much meaner than insulting someone personally.
Creepiness in men is a function of their attractiveness.
If they’re tall and good looking, aggressive and forward advances are ‘assertive’ and ‘confident.’ Niagra Falls vagina.
If they’re short and ugly, they’re ‘creepy’ and ‘have no sense of boundaries.’ Gobi desert vagina.
If they’re tall and good looking, persistence is ‘romantic.’ Tokyo destroying tsunami.
If they’re short and ugly, it’s ‘stalkerish.’ Death valley.
If you’re 6’4, you can pretty much just walk into social situations, sling a girl over your shoulder and wordlessly carry them back to your room. Her eager meat jar will leave a trail of slime all the way from the party to your door.
Can we please teach Arks how to read before he comments again?
Actually, to expand, it is meaner than naming someone. If I say, “Bill Braley is a poopyhead because ‘x'” everyone else can say, “well that’s Bill Braley, I don’t do exactly that, so I’m ok.”
But when I say, “People who do ‘x’ are poopyheads,” no one can say, “I’m not a person,” which means they have to evaluate what they do. Since most people aren’t very good at that sort of analysis, and we aren’t talking about things as concrete as driving in the passing lane, they confuse, “‘x’ is likely to be seen as creepy”, with “You don’t do what I want, and that makes you a bad person.”
Add that a significant number of them do exactly that to other people (Meller), and the tendency to think all human beings are like ourselves means they are more likely to see people who point out the problematic as ordering them to change.
Would I like to see society change? Yes. Can I mandate it? No. Would I try? No.
Will I call out people who are being asshats? Yes. I’ll even say I want them to be ashamed. I’ve done that. Because being an asshat is shameful.
So telling me I’m engaging in, “shaming language” isn’t a big deal. Bigots, and sexists deserve to be shamed. It’s just that they don’t like people telling them they’ve engaged in shameful behavior.