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“A man is not being respected if the woman he is with has spent her youth, beauty and fertility on someone else.” Um, what?

Vile strumpet! You'll get your comeuppance!

Manosphere dudes – MRAs, MGTOWers, PUAs and whatever other acronyms they will eventually invent – love to tell themselves little “just so” stories about women. One of their favorite stories is the story of the Bad Boy Cock Carousel.

The gist of it: Women in their twenties are at the height of their physical beauty. So they act like entitled bitches, sleeping with every Bad Boy and Alpha Asshole there is and ignoring the humble, honest, hardworking “nice guy” betas silently pining for them.

But once these mean girls hit the age of 27 or so, they suddenly become ugly monsters, and the bad boys stop returning their calls. So then the evil ladies try to glom on to the nearest beta male in an attempt to marry him and steal all of his money.

But the beta males don’t want none of that used-up pussy, and so they Go Their Own Way and everyone ends up forever alone. Or the guys learn “game” and start banging the hotties. Or they just go back to posting sammich jokes on Reddit. I think these are all supposed to be happy endings, because at least the evil bitches get their comeuppance.

Recently, someone posted a n especially creepy version of this Manosphere fairy tale in the comments here; it turned out to have been cut and pasted from a comment on Roissy/Heartiste’s “game” blog by a guy who calls himself PhillyBoy81. It’s long; I trimmed it a little for space.

“[A]lpha males” are doing all the rest of us a favor in the long run. They operate very much like short sellers in the dating market, exposing fraud and helping to discover the true prices of commodities (women).

Yep, we’re on the express train to Doucheytown.

Let’s take a 21-year old chick who’s between a 7/8 (cute to pretty. …  She can pretty much get sex whenever she wants it and with whomever she wants to have it with. And that is ultimately her downfall.

Young women (and some older ones) have an overinflated sense of the value of their vaginas. I mean, they have Wharton MBAs paying for exotic trips and they’re drinking Cosmos in the VIP with the Wizards.

Apparently this is just how women in their early twenties live. Who knew?

Since they are able to get such easy access to “alpha” dick, it follows logically that they should also have access to “alpha” wealth, marriage, and the lifestyle that accompanies all of that, right?

Wrong. See, when women gain this enormous sense of pussy power, they swing for the fences. …  So, the cute guy with a 3.8 GPA, but no car? Nope, not good enough. The nice-looking pre-med student? “Nah, I’ll just get back to him later. I heard Jude Law’s hotter brother is transferring here this semester.”

This had me worried for a second, but I looked it up: Jude Law does not have a “hotter brother,” or indeed a brother at all, which is good news for all straight men of equal or lesser hotness than Jude Law.

Anyway, back to the evil women:

They invariably end up overplaying their hand. They chase these players looking to get a ring, and then that ring never comes. So now they’re 27. It’s a good thing she kept that pre-med Johns Hopkins student in her back pocket just in case things didn’t work out with the player, right?

Wrong again. In a vacuum, women would have their way. Men beg for sex. Women decide whether to give it to them (and for most guys, they will not give it to you). But luckily, we don’t live in a vacuum. We live in the real world with social constraints, and there are two that work distinctly to a man’s advantage: reputation and age. …

Ladies don’t think … we won’t remember your bitchiness. And don’t think we won’t remember those guys who you ran behind like a cum bucket.

Hmm. I’m pretty sure the only place buckets are gifted with mobility is in old Disney cartoons.

We remember. And we punish.

When a man sleeps with 100 chicks, he’s a stud. When a woman sleeps with JUST ONE guy, that eliminates you as wifey material to ALL of his friends.  …

Apparently penises have a sort of reverse-Midas Touch thing going on: every woman who touches one turns into a filthy, used-up slut.

The height of a woman’s value, in terms of her value as a long term partner, is around the age of 27. That is the praecipice.  The older she gets, the more her singlehood gets scrutinized by men. Why the hell is she still single? Who’s cock has she been sucking all these years?

Clearly that is the first question every straight man should ask himself whenever he sees a single woman older than the age of 27. (Just make sure you don’t actually ask this question out loud; it doesn’t go over well.)

[L]et’s face it, what virile, successful bachelor wants to entertain a 29 or 30 year old as wifey potential. She’s going to want to become a baby factory right away and rip away the last vestiges of your freedom. I don’t think so. It’s now my time to swing for the fences and bang some of these 21 year olds that I couldn’t bang in college.

Hello creepy older dude lurking in the shadows at the frat party!

In conclusion, a woman’s value is really defined by the type of man who puts a ring on her finger, not the type of guy who will fuck her. It takes a lot of women a long time to understand this, and thus, they overplay their hand. If it wasn’t for the players dogging them out, these women would not get a sense of their true value and start to seek out men who fit within their price range.

It’s all about market equilibrium, yo! SCIENCE!

So that’s the story. It’s a stupid story. It’s not a true story. But it’s the story that manosphere dudes, like young children, want to hear over and over and over.

But I haven’t even gotten to the best part. Our pal MarkyMark, an excitable and somewhat addled Man Going His Own Way, reposted PhillyBoy81’s comment on his blog. In the comments there (as Man Boobz commenter Wetherby pointed out) we find this little gem:

A man is not being respected if the woman he is with has spent her youth, beauty and fertility on someone else.

Yep, that’s right. I’m just going to repeat that, because, wow.

A man is not being respected if the woman he is with has spent her youth, beauty and fertility on someone else.

All women older than 27 or so who date or marry men are disrespecting these men because … they are older than 27. Apparently women age out of spite. Maturation is misandry!

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Wetherby
Wetherby
13 years ago

I’m my wife’s second husband, and she left her first because he was boring and unambitious.

Which sounds like something out of DKM’s worst nightmares, but in fact she felt disgusted with herself for ending the marriage – so much so that she let him keep absolutely everything, including the house whose deposit and mortgage she’d helped fund. (There weren’t any kids – if there had been, she’d probably have stuck with him).

She then spent her late twenties and early thirties sleeping on floors, living in assorted communes, and catching up on all the wild sex that she’d missed out on through getting married too early. By the time she met me, we reckon that she’d had between three and four times as many sexual partners as I had.

None of which bothered me in the slightest: as I’ve already said, a partner’s sexual experience can potentially be a major plus, and it’s bizarre to my mind that it’s regarded as somehow shameful. In fact, if anything, the fact that we’d had so much experience of a wide range sexual relationships and less than perfect romantic relationships made us far more certain that we’d met the right person when we finally did meet up in our mid-thirties.

I think the crucial thing was that she’s the first partner I’ve had that I can imagine growing old with.

Actually it is more likely that you will find someone who is less whiny if they are over a certain age, one thing I noticed about my sister who was what we called “high maintenance” was how utterly vacuous, boring and whiny she was despite being nice to look at at 20. Now that she is in her mid-thirties she is a lot funnier and nicer.

I think the single most profitable thing that anyone can do in their twenties is use this period of comparative freedom to take a long, hard, laceratingly self-critical look at yourself and how you come across to people. I’ve done it. My wife’s done it. Your sister has clearly done it, and I daresay you have too – and the chances are we’ve all ended up as better human beings because of it.

But if your instinct is to blame others, or some made-up “system” that’s designed to oppress you, or stereotypical ‘alpha males’ and ‘sluts’ that don’t generally exist except in MRA fantasies – essentially, blame anyone other than yourself – it’s no wonder your life is such an emotional mess.

Viscaria
Viscaria
13 years ago

Broseidon:

They are powerful in their prime, that is the point. That power being defined by having lots of suitors and being able to choose from among them.

Ah, yes, the magical power to choose who you sleep with, something only pretty young women possess! I’m almost positive you, also, can choose who you sleep with. Really. I am a young woman and I think I’m pretty (but hey, this is the Internet, so I guess you’ll have to take my word on it) and I have been rejected* by men, so I guess people can even choose not to sleep with people with “pussy power”.

But what really stood out to me here is the words “in their prime.” I don’t at all consider myself to be in the prime of my life. I’m still learning how to do really basic grown-up things, like not subsist on pasta. I have a dream job that I’m pursuing that I’m not likely to have for many years. I dream about being a mom someday. I’m only in my “prime” if my worth is defined by physical measures of attractiveness. Which it’s not. The only people who would think that it is are people who consider me only in terms of how I would please them sexually, not as an autonomous human being.

*Note: I’ve also had crushes or attractions to men and women that I never revealed, which is very much not the same as being rejected by them. If these people later in life realized they were interested in me, and I became interested in them again, that’s not exactly “keeping me on the back burner,” is it?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
13 years ago

For me personally it’s not the idea that the woman is ‘soiled and devalued’ but more that she’d be settling for me as her second (or fifth, or twentieth) choice and I’m supposed to accept that cheerfully and without question.

Um, wouldn’t “settling” just as likely mean that a woman is marrying the first dude to come along, rather than trying out a few and picking her favorite? I know y’all want to sleep only with virgins, ’cause you’re afraid your skills in bed will compare unfavorably with those of other people, but this makes me think you want completely inexperienced women because you would compare unfavorably with other men in all relationship-relevant categories. 😀

Bee
Bee
13 years ago

Not that I’m wanting to argue about %’s. I was merely putting the historical distaste of female promiscuity into perspective.

Historical distaste of female promiscuity may also have had something to do with how married women were thought of as the property of their husbands …

For me personally it’s not the idea that the woman is ‘soiled and devalued’ but more that she’d be settling for me as her second (or fifth, or twentieth) choice and I’m supposed to accept that cheerfully and without question.

This is an odd conclusion — one that only someone who has no dating or sexual experience (or perhaps someone who is trying very hard to justify and unjustifiable opinion) could come to.

I’ve had five serious relationships in my life, along with other less substantial flings. This in no way indicates that my current boyfriend is my fifth (or 20th) “choice.” That would only happen in a world where the first guy I went out with was (somewhat inconceivably) MY PERFECT MATCH IN EVERY WAY, the next guy I met was coincidentally somewhat less perfect but still NOT BAD, etc. Instead, what’s happened was, my prior relationships have ended for various reasons (he moved away, I moved away, we weren’t compatible in some way, he was an asshole, I was an asshole, etc.), and from those relationships I’ve learned, moved on, and now am dating someone I love every bit as much as younger-me loved my first boyfriend, and who I think is extremely compatible with present-day-me, in no way inferior to any other guy I’ve dated, etc.

It’s weird that you would put him in fifth position simply because I didn’t meet him in my teens.

Ullere
Ullere
13 years ago

@Rutee Katreya ‘Hey, moron. That’s not fraud. Fraud requires deliberate lies.’

Hey idiot, not according to the laws of the nations and studies I was quoting. The term parental fraud isn’t mine but a legal term.

‘made the misrepresentation [or omission] in negligent disregard of its truth or falsity. ‘
If you knew there was a chance the child wasn’t the man that you said was the father, then you knew there was a chance that you were commiting fraud.

@ xanthe yes I address draculas post about the median and the range, and said that mandatory dna testing would give a more accurate picture.

@bee ‘ Historical distaste of female promiscuity may also have had something to do with how married women were thought of as the property of their husbands …’

Yes quite possibly.

Broseidon
Broseidon
13 years ago

“I know y’all want to sleep only with virgins, ’cause you’re afraid your skills in bed will compare unfavorably with those of other people, but this makes me think you want completely inexperienced women because you would compare unfavorably with other men in all relationship-relevant categories. :D”

Yes, that’s it exactly. You’ve sure got me figured out. Gotta love the sarcastic smiley at the end, too. All that’s missing is a joke about my small penis.

So let me understand this, if a guy said “hey, I dated some hot chicks over the years, but for now I guess you’ll do” you would happily accept this? Remember, if you don’t, it means that you are afraid that your skills in every area of dating would compare unfavorably to those of other women. 😀

Molly Ren
13 years ago

“It’s weird that you would put him in fifth position simply because I didn’t meet him in my teens.”

Yeah, Bee, this is the oddest thing to me about the “women who have more than one relationship are USED!” argument.

To make this “backup beta” scenario work, I would have had to stay in the same town all of my life and stay friends with the same group of people until I was 27. Which I think is pretty rare nowadays.

Bee
Bee
13 years ago

So let me understand this, if a guy said “hey, I dated some hot chicks over the years, but for now I guess you’ll do” you would happily accept this?

I don’t think anyone would like hearing that. But you’re saying that someone saying “I guess you’ll do for now” is the same thing as a person having dated someone in the past and now wanting to date you. That’s the problem.

Viscaria
Viscaria
13 years ago

I’m pretty sure the argument that both Bagelsan and Bee are putting forward here is that trying to have a relationship with you after having relationships with other people =/= settling for you. If a woman is full-on telling you that she’s settling, yeah, she’s probably not the one for you.

Viscaria
Viscaria
13 years ago

Ninja’d by Bee, and rightly, since it was your words I was trying to interpret 🙂

Viscaria
Viscaria
13 years ago

Another thought: is it viciously misandrist of a woman to change her dating preferences as she gets more experience and moves into different stages of her life? I do not look for the same things in a partner now that I did in high school, so potentially boys who I didn’t find interesting then I might find interesting as men now. If we’re talking about a particular given individual, surely they would have changed in the intervening years as well. Is that somehow terribly unfair of me?

I wouldn’t have dated my current partner when I was in high school, because that would have been creepy as fuck.

Polliwog
Polliwog
13 years ago

So let me understand this, if a guy said “hey, I dated some hot chicks over the years, but for now I guess you’ll do” you would happily accept this?

No, but if my partner said “hey, I’ve dated some hot chicks over the years, but now I’m with you and happy about it,” I wouldn’t worry that I was somehow a “runner-up” because I wasn’t the first girl he ever met. That’s just weird.

Broseidon
Broseidon
13 years ago

“I don’t think anyone would like hearing that. But you’re saying that someone saying “I guess you’ll do for now” is the same thing as a person having dated someone in the past and now wanting to date you. That’s the problem.”

It’s more like someone who wouldn’t give you/those like you the time of day when they were young and hot and had their pick of anyone, but now that they aren’t anymore, deciding that you’ll do after all. That’s the one I have an issue with, and also the one I believe the article’s writer was talking about. His mistake was generalizing this to all women.

Or as another guy rather indelicately put it a few years ago, “I fucked and sucked my way through fifteen counties, but now I want a docile schmuck to pay my bills and not pester me for sex. “

And Wetherby – you sound like a pussy-whipped beta, sorry.

KathleenB
KathleenB
13 years ago

I’m pretty sure the Wizards thing is referring to the basketball team – they’re still around, yes?

Amused
Amused
13 years ago

It’s more like someone who wouldn’t give you/those like you the time of day when they were young and hot and had their pick of anyone, but now that they aren’t anymore, deciding that you’ll do after all. That’s the one I have an issue with, and also the one I believe the article’s writer was talking about. His mistake was generalizing this to all women.

This would be limited to situations where you — that is, the guy that this woman wouldn’t give the time of day to — never changed, and are exactly the same as 40 as when you were 18. EXACTLY the same. Most normal people, however, grow and refine themselves. They get educations, they acquire social graces, they learn how to be interesting, and they get rid of the zits. However, if you are the same ignorant, uneducated and clumsy pepperoni-face that you were as a teenager, and a woman who once rejected you now wants to date you, I can see how you have a point. It’s just that, in real life, it’s almost never like this.

Molly Ren
13 years ago

Cuz comments like “And Wetherby – you sound like a pussy-whipped beta, sorry” *never* come from the mouth of someone who generalizes all women!

Whatever
Whatever
13 years ago

Let me enlighten you as to the male perspective (well, at least, the kind of male that’s relevant to this discussion):

If you study straight porn, you’ll see the physical difference between female newcomers with not much sexual experience and female old-timers who’re very much experienced. The newcomer’s bodies are firm, smooth, and clear; as time passes, and they become oldtimers, their bodies become sagging, wrinkled, and blemished. This is especially true with their genitalia: the appearance of a NC as compared to the appearance of a OT is like that of a grape as compared to that of a a raisin. And of course, there’s the feel: unless the old-timers do kegel exercises, they feel looser and coarser, as compared to newcomers who feel tighter and smoother.

This does not apply to males, as the penis grows bigger (and thus better) and looks/feels superior with experience, in direct contrast to the female experience.

Wetherby
Wetherby
13 years ago

@Molly Ren:

Cuz comments like “And Wetherby – you sound like a pussy-whipped beta, sorry” *never* come from the mouth of someone who generalizes all women!

This is far from the first time I’ve said this, but terms like “pussy-whipped”, “mangina” and “beta” (at least in this context) reveal infinitely more about the crass and simplistic worldview of the person uttering them than they do about his intended target.

They certainly don’t reveal anything useful about me, because if my wife – or any other person in my life, regardless of gender – says anything stupid, I call them out on it immediately and in no uncertain terms. Equality doesn’t just mean a willingness to share chores, it means an equal willingness to criticize when the other steps out of line.

@Viscaria:

I do not look for the same things in a partner now that I did in high school, so potentially boys who I didn’t find interesting then I might find interesting as men now.

And this works in reverse, too. Out of curiosity, I once spent a day with an ex-girlfriend to mark the tenth anniversary of our break-up. We had a perfectly pleasant time, but for the life of me, I couldn’t imagine what on earth ever brought us together: we had nothing in common, and I don’t recall the sex being that great either. I suspect our relationship lasted six months purely because of the terror of being single again and the possibility of Never Finding Anyone Else.

Molly Ren
13 years ago

“This does not apply to males, as the penis grows bigger (and thus better) and looks/feels superior with experience, in direct contrast to the female experience.”

The penis grows bigger with the number of sexual partners you have? Am I reading this right? Why do guys with small dicks worry so much if it’s a natural size progression? 😛

(Whatever, you’re just in this for the lolz, aren’t you?)

Amused
Amused
13 years ago

This does not apply to males, as the penis grows bigger (and thus better) and looks/feels superior with experience, in direct contrast to the female experience.

Nope — according to actual science and objective reality, it’s the opposite. The penis shrinks with age. So sorry — I’d run and get my tiny violin, but that would deprive me of the opportunity to tell you what other sexual changes you can expect with age. Men begin to gain weight after the age of 35, and for most, that weight gain is irreversible and completely unstoppable. Moreover, men tend to deposit a disproportionate amount of fat in the abdominal area, making the penis appear even smaller and reducing its function (but there is, as I previously mentioned, independent, objective shrinkage as well). Finally, rates of erectile dysfunction (that’s impotence for you, kid) skyrocket in men of 40 and older, and as you can well understand, I’m sure, it doesn’t matter how big your dong is if you can’t get it up.

I hate to tell you, “Whatever”, but life isn’t a porno flick. Come down to earth and learn to live in the real world — then maybe someone will stick with you after your junk becomes small and useless.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
13 years ago

I don’t think we can arrive at any sort of common understanding between the world as we see it and the world as people like Broseidon or the original writer being lampooned in the OP see it. They’re such traditionalists that they have an issue with serial monogamy being too much sleeping around for them, where at least half of us are either poly or ‘poly-accepting’ (i.e “it’s not for me but the motivations behind your choice seem to be logically consistent with my worldview”).

The major failure of their world view is based on their idea that women don’t like to have casual sex, so the 10000 ‘alphas’ they slept with before ‘settling’ for a ‘beta’ they must actually have pursued for a relationship, then figured out they couldn’t have one with them so revised their demands downwards. This little thing called Occam’s Razor instead would have us think that maybe if women are just having casual sex, it might just be because they only want casual sex at that point in time, rather than being some sort of elaborate result of some unproven ‘sexual marketplace’ these guys pulled out of their ass. And maybe they weren’t having casual sex with that ‘beta’ not because he was inferior to the other guys, but because he wasn’t the right person for that where he’s the right person for a relationship. Imagine that! It’s almost as though while I’m looking for video game buddies I will go out with videogamers, and then one day if I get tired of that and get really into skydiving instead I’ll end up ‘settling’ for a skydiving enthusiast.

Whatever
Whatever
13 years ago

Obviously, they’re fretting they aren’t getting enough yet, and if word gets out that they’re less than the minimum requirement, they never will (for free).

And oh, whatever gave you that idea? ;P

Kyrie
Kyrie
13 years ago

@Whatever, I’m not much of a porn user, but I didn’t know they were old, sagging, wrinkled, blemished women starring in mainstream porn. That’s completely news for me. So is the fact that a bigger penis mean more pleasure for the partner. So is the fact that men don’t age or at least don’t get wrinkles, a less firm body,… So is the fact that porn can be relevant to real life. Silly me who believed that porn was mostly about *watching* sexy people having sex, and only in real life you could *feel* the body of your partner and that experience was more likely to help you enjoy sex that that the mere fact of not having wrinkles.
So, thanks for the enlightening, I guess.

It’s really sad, this whole idea that you’re the best you can be at 20, and everything after is just going downhill.

Wetherby
Wetherby
13 years ago

Whatever’s last point has already been amply challenged, but the rest of his post is equally silly, so…

If you study straight porn, you’ll see the physical difference between female newcomers with not much sexual experience and female old-timers who’re very much experienced.

And this is relevant to real-life sexual relationships how, exactly?

“Straight porn” is concerned exclusively with the visual: it’s hopeless at conveying the tactility and sensuality of the sexual act – which is one of the reasons that many people, including myself, prefer written erotica.

The newcomer’s bodies are firm, smooth, and clear; as time passes, and they become oldtimers, their bodies become sagging, wrinkled, and blemished. This is especially true with their genitalia: the appearance of a NC as compared to the appearance of a OT is like that of a grape as compared to that of a a raisin.

Completely untrue in my experience. The owner of the neatest and most perfectly-formed vulva that I’ve ever encountered in real life was 42. In fact, I had lunch with her only the other day – she’s now 53, and in better shape than people literally half her age.

And of course, there’s the feel: unless the old-timers do kegel exercises, they feel looser and coarser, as compared to newcomers who feel tighter and smoother.

Coarser? As in rougher? I suspect if that’s your experience, you just weren’t turning her on enough.

Molly Ren
13 years ago

“Coarser? As in rougher? I suspect if that’s your experience, you just weren’t turning her on enough.”

As women age, we get so annoyed by the whole business of sex we line our vaginas with sandpaper just to make sure dudes get the message.

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