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antifeminism misandry misogyny MRA paul elam threats violence against men/women

Men’s Rights site A Voice for Men offers $1000 “bounty” for personal information on Swedish feminists

A Voice for Men, one of the most influential and popular Men’s Rights websites, is now offering a $1000 “bounty” for anyone able to track down the personal information of several Swedish women involved in a tasteless video advertising a theater production based on Valarie Solanas’ SCUM manifesto. As the anonymous poster calling himself John the Other – the second-in-command at AVfM – put it in a posting yesterday (emphasis in original):

We are asking for the full legal names, home addresses, places of employment, email addresses and contact phone numbers of the women and man who produced and starred in the video described above. We will pay 1000 dollars to any individual who provides and confirms this information, to be paid either directly to themselves or to a charity of their choice.

John explains that this information will be posted on the AVfM-affiliated site Register-Her.com, an “offenders database” that is being used to vilify individual feminists and “Fuck Their Shit Up,” as AVfM head honcho Paul Elam likes to put it. John notes that Regsiter-Her.com also intends to post the “government identification numbers [and] drivers licences” of the women they are able to identify.

John admits plainly that posting such information may put the physical safety of these women at risk from vigilante violence. As he puts it (emphasis mine):

Some individuals may criticize the intent to publish not only names, but also addresses, phone numbers, employers and other personal information – on the grounds that such exposure create a risk of retributive violence against individuals who openly advocate murder based on sex. It is the considered position of the editorial board of AVfM that any such risks are out-weighed by the ongoing hazard to the public of these individuals continuing to operate in anonymity.

The comments posted on the article at AVfM suggest that such “retributive” violence is a real possibility. Indeed, here’s the very first comment (which currently has 17 upvotes from readers of the site):

A commenter called  Xnomolos, in another upvoted comment, adds:

i would love to hunt down these women myself.

JinnBottle responds to this comment by advising “all men to start carrying guns.”

The commenters on AVfM have already uncovered the identities of all of the women involved in the video. The blogger Fidelbogen has been the most active internet detective so far.

There is no question that the video itself is offensive, and designed to provoke. You can see it here; I’m not going to embed it on this site. If you don’t want to watch it: it depicts a young woman shooting a man in the head for no reason. Afterwards the woman and her gleeful, giggling accomplices do a victory dance, then lick the blood from the dead man’s head. A message at the end urges viewers to “Do Your Part.”

Every feminist I know who has seen the video has been appalled by it. I’m appalled by it. It’s hateful, and it’s wrong.

But John the Other, and the other commenters on AVfM, claim that it is more than this: that that the video of the staged murder, intended to provide publicity for a theater production based on Solanas’ notorious SCUM manifesto, is quite literally an open call for the murder of men. As John the Other puts it:

Open advocation of murder cannot be allowed in a civil society, without that society devolving into a culture of brutal violence.

Evidently he has no problem with, or has somehow not noticed, the comments on AVfM fantasizing about shooting and killing the women involved in the video.

Is the video a literal call to murder? Is it, as one AVfM commenter puts it, evidence of a “conspiracy to commit mass murder?” No. Violence and murder have been dramatized in the theater since its beginnings. No one accuses Sophocles of advocating fratricide and incest, though both are dealt with in his play Oedipus Rex. No one accuses Shakespeare of advocating mass murder, though many of his most famous plays have body counts that put many horror films to shame.

Does the tag line at the end of the video – “do your part” – transform the video from a depiction of murder  into an open call for it? No. The “threat,” such as it is, is vague; it’s not aimed at any specific individuals. It might be seen as akin to someone wearing a t-shirt that says “kill ‘em all, let God sort them out” – tasteless and offensive, but not a literal threat.  “Kill ‘Em All” is actually the name of Metallica’s first album. While a lot of people see James Hetfield,  Lars Ulrich et al as pompous idiots, they have not been jailed for conspiracy to commit mass murder. That would be ridiculous.

Someone claiming to have been involved in the SCUM-inspired theatrical production in question has posted several detailed comments on AVfM, explaining that those involved in the production are “not out to get you” and that the video itself was “meant as a viral “wtf?!” to give attention to both the questions that it raises and the play itself.”

By contrast, AVfM is targeting specific individuals, and intends to offer information that would allow anyone intent on doing them harm to quite literally track them to their homes and workplaces. Those fantasizing about killing these woman are not simply making a joke along the lines of “women, can’t live with ‘em; can’t kill ‘em.” They are fantasizing about killing real people, and providing would-be evil-doers maps to their doors.

AVfM is an American site, in English; these specific women live in Sweden. While it is a real possibility, it seems unlikely that anyone reading the site will literally find and murder any of those involved in the SCUM production. At least I hope that this does not come to pass.

I don’t believe that either Paul Elam or John the Other literally wants any feminist to be killed. The real intent behind AVfM’s publishing people’s personal information, it seems clear, is to intimidate feminist writers and activists into shutting up, to make clear that if they post something that offends the internet vigilantes at AVfM they will face the possibility of some deranged individual quite literally showing up at their door intent on doing them harm.

Paul Elam and John the Other claim that they’re not advocating violence. But they are playing a dangerous game here. If some deranged individual, inspired by the hyperbolic anti-feminist rhetoric on AVfM, and armed with information provided by “Register-Her.com,” murders or otherwise harms a feminist blogger or activist or video maker, Elam and his enablers will have blood on their hands. As will those MRAs who continue to publicly support and/or link to AVfM and/or Register-Her.com.

This is not the way a legitimate rights group deals with those who disagree with them. This is what hate groups do.

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Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

*gets the popcorn and settles in for the fireworks*

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

…But seriously, David, I’m glad you posted this. Paul Elam and his buddies have been conducting repeated and systematic campaigns of intimidation against people who oppose them. They’ve been using their little “registry” as a threat to shut people up and as a blunt weapon against any woman they disapprove of. They’re bullies, they’re recklessly trying to goad others into violence, and they’re getting scarily wrapped up in the tiny little sense of “power” this gives them. I’m glad you’re speaking out against it.

What they’re doing is horrifying, it’s dangerous, and despite my joke about the comments this might bring, it’s not a game.

zhinxy
10 years ago

It’s vital to remember Paul Elam’s concept of “self defense” here, and appropriate response. He has no concept that excalation and excessive force is a bad idea. He claims that you have the right to incapacitate anyone who slaps you, and that this is self defense. ON the comments section of that blog post, dealing with the horrific beating by a fast food worker of a customer that had slapped him, the MRA’s were overwhelmingly in favor if this concept – You have the right to DO ANYTHIGN , because THEY STARTED IT, and THEY MIGHT DO ANYTHING. A person even brought up that legally, for example, in the eyes of the law and in the you are not really allowed to just shoot someone in the face for slapping you, “in self defense” in general.

They then claimed it was because the feminized courts “don’t understand real world violence” – In other words, slap equals shoot, get them before they get you. It’s not about the right to self defense for these guys, it’s about fear, and hatred, and “The Right To Make Them Think Twice” – IN this worldview, of course, publishing the real names of people who made a fictional video is that, exactly. Get them before they get you. And if somebody takes them out, well, who knows what they could have been planning. Who knows what they could have done? They weren’t encouraging it. But they did have the right to make them think twice. These guys feel attacked. And this is what they do when they feel that way.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

Anonymity is no joke. It’s really too bad that I know for a fact that a breach of it is only a tort offense.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

How about incitement?

AVfM’s nudge-nudge wink-winks about what they want their readers to do are getting less and less subtle. They want someone to commit violence against these women, and they’re trying to provide information to make that easier. This isn’t just about violating anonymity–at what point is it a crime to encourage and aid your readers to commit violence against specific people?

ozymandias42
10 years ago

This scares the shit out of me, to be honest. I’m a feminist blogger about men’s issues. I’m exactly who they want to target. :/ I know I’m small fish, but… it still scares me.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

They’re also, and I’m a little nervous saying this, complete cowards. Despite all their talk about how “men can be jailed for no reason,” they’re not willing to take any action that might actually put them in jail. They’re just hoping someone will take the fall for them. They’re misogyny chickenhawks desperate to find the next Breivik or Sodini to do their dirty work.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad they’re hiding behind their computers, but I’m also a little sickened by it.

Xanthe
Xanthe
10 years ago

One of the production team, JohnnyKarhinen, has posted on the thread (and his substantial first post has been pushed through the floor in down votes) and immediately Paul Elam marches in with “Please provide us with your address, telephone number, place of employment, etc.”

It’s a witch hunt, pure and simple.

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

I don’t know, Senator McCarthy, they all look suspicious to me…

Fucking vile evil hate group. There’s not much more I can say.

Bostonian
10 years ago

The MRM, so peaceful compared to the feminist movement! Oh wait, it is the other way around completely…

Murderous morons, the lot of them.

I hope someone finds Paul Elam’s info and posts it.

Dracula
Dracula
10 years ago

This is just fucking shameful. This is not how grown adults settle their differences. At least it shouldn’t be.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

AVfM’s nudge-nudge wink-winks about what they want their readers to do are getting less and less subtle. They want someone to commit violence against these women, and they’re trying to provide information to make that easier. This isn’t just about violating anonymity–at what point is it a crime to encourage and aid your readers to commit violence against specific people?

Not a crime until someone is shot at, in effect. Unless I’m misremembering.

captainbathrobe
10 years ago

Gosh, he’s such a moderate and thoughtful MRA.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

Well, look, not that I condone this (I argued with Paul Elam about the morality of RH on Reddit), but these women actually are almost inciting violence themselves. I’m pretty sure AVfM would not be doing this to any standard feminist bloggers.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
10 years ago

I know in my gut two things. 1) the majority of these fuckheads are snuff film consumers, and see nothing wrong with them when the REAL victims are animals, women, or minorities. 2) when the inevitable violence happens, they’re going to throw their hands up and say “WE didn’t commit the violence. Sure, we tracked down their identities and addresses, but we certainly don’t condone violence! And the guy who did the violence is crazy and NOT affiliated with us. And you’re all mean girls/manginas for suggesting it’s our fault.”

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

In the event that someone actually did track down and kill one of the people involved in that video, can Elam et al be charged with conspiracy to commit murder? You’d think so, if they had any direct communication with the actual killer.

darksidecat
10 years ago

The goal is harassment and intimidation. It is despicable.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

Their goal is to rile up the next George Sodini and point him at the targets of their choice. I think they honestly want to recruit a murderer.

tatjna
tatjna
10 years ago

And yet when women talk about receiving threats from internet misogynists, we are told we’re imagining it.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

I notice that NWO’s exhortations to people to “just not kill” are apparently not going to be applied to the folks Elam and friends are trying to recruit to kill on their behalf.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Eventually Elam and his band of thugs will harass and bully someone with the means to crush them like the bugs they are. Their beatstick won’t work forever.

So, how many of our trolls will be saying the MRM is totes not a hate group now?

Jenn93
Jenn93
10 years ago

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

They’re a pretty small group.

…Although to make up for it they’re extra stupid.

Jenn93
Jenn93
10 years ago

Aint that the fucking truth.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

I admit that I frankly got some pleasure out of seeing the coward “Vliet Tiptree” outed. I only think that’s where it should have ended. The name, I mean The home addresses, phone numbers, etc., I have a real problem with that.

Blue Jean
Blue Jean
10 years ago

What next? Are they going to burn Daniel Radcliffe at the stake as a sorcerer because they saw him fly a broomstick on the big screen?

Pyena
Pyena
10 years ago

This is disgusting. Is it possible to report these bullies to someone? I mean, by providing that kind of information wouldn’t they technically be accomplices if someone did act on it?

JenniferP
JenniferP
10 years ago

I’ve been watching too much Law and Order recently – Should anyone get shot, I think DA Ben Stone has them on Murder 2, “Depraved Indifference to Human Life.”

But I am not even a TV lawyer, and they are seriously fucking frightening.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

MRAL, so if they come for you, let’s say because you post here, you’ll be OK with just your name being exposed?

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

I’m not a hatemonger with a public platform, so I don’t think I deserve it.

Seraph
Seraph
10 years ago

I’m pretty sure AVfM would not be doing this to any standard feminist bloggers.

Of course they would. Maybe they haven’t yet (anybody know?), but “standard feminist bloggers” deal with this shit all the time.

Kyrie
Kyrie
10 years ago

I don’t think they can be accomplice as long as nothing as happened. And even then, tying to it wouldn’t be easy. It reminds me of these two families where parents beat a kid to death. In each house they found the same book who says that if you love your children, god want you to beat them. The writer will never be arrested, even though he gave advice on how to molest your child.
The fact it’s *obvious* they’re pushing people to violence doesn’t mean they will ever have to take responsibility.
Sad.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

I admit that I frankly got some pleasure out of seeing the coward “Vliet Tiptree” outed.

Said under a pseudonym, ladies and gents.

Oh, and FTR, Vliet Tiptree *has* legal means, and is using them. So you called, Hellkell! XD

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

@Rutee, good for her! XD

Pyena
Pyena
10 years ago

“I don’t think they can be accomplice as long as nothing as happened. And even then, tying to it wouldn’t be easy. It reminds me of these two families where parents beat a kid to death. In each house they found the same book who says that if you love your children, god want you to beat them. The writer will never be arrested, even though he gave advice on how to molest your child.
The fact it’s *obvious* they’re pushing people to violence doesn’t mean they will ever have to take responsibility.”

Is that the book written by Mike and Debbie Pearl? I’ve heard about them. I wouldn’t use their ‘advice’ to train a dog, much less a child.

I see what you mean, though. It’s just frustrating. I feel like those women should at least be warned about this.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
10 years ago

It’s illegal to post someone’s name on the Internet? I don’t have a problem with it. With people like her, it’s all about humiliation of the individual, without any thought toward “intimidation” or whatever. That’s why I would only release her name. That’s plenty, in my estimation.

Seraph
Seraph
10 years ago

I admit that I frankly got some pleasure out of seeing the coward “Vliet Tiptree” outed. I only think that’s where it should have ended. The name, I mean The home addresses, phone numbers, etc., I have a real problem with that.

Good. I’m glad your rage hesitates when there’s an actual risk that someone might get hurt. That’s to your credit, it really is. It puts you a step ahead of NWO, DKM, and apparently all of AVfM.

But your statements so far on this thread remind me of how young you really are.

What you’re seeing is a real hate group in action. Someone offended them – and the movie was genuinely offensive, no denying it – and now they want that person hurt. Maybe dead. Definitely living in fear of the stalkers that might find their way to their doors. They want the power to intimidate and silence people they find offensive. They want women to be afraid that if they say something that offends AVfM, someone will show up at their house with a gun someday. And they want all of this to happen in a way that leaves their own hands clean.

Compare it to what you’ve seen on this site. Decide who the real bad guys are.

Quackers
Quackers
10 years ago

I’m surprised nobody mentioned freedom of speech. For all the yammering MRAs do about freedom of speech and freedom overall, they are the ones who try to silence the free speech of others.

I do not condone this video, nor do I condone any supposed feminist who says misandric things. They do not represent me or my views. However as much as I disagree, they still have the rights to their views. Since the internet is not regulated, what right do they have to play internet police? also where is AVfM on all the racist hate speech on the internet? why aren’t they on a witch hunt for internet racist groups? and like I mentioned in previous comments in other threads, where is their outrage at HOLLYWOOD blockbuster horror films depicting brutal violence with misogynistic undertones? SCUM is a disgusting book but so are books by Marquis de Sade and films have been made based on his life and books. Why aren’t they calling out for those directors?

This is nothing but a tactic to scare their “enemy” into shutting up. I seriously have a bad feeling about all this, given the angry violent rhetoric we’ve seen from many MRAs.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

For everyone who is saying that feminists are evil/bad/nasty/etc… I want to reiterate one question posted earlier. What feminists are doing this? What feminists are going around rounding up MRA peeps and trying to find their personal info?

All it takes is for one of those posted on register-her to get attacked… Just one, and they’ll get the war they’re looking for. They shouldn’t be shocked, though, when the police don’t buy whatever story they’re gonna cook up.

*seethe*

Viscaria
Viscaria
10 years ago

And this is when the majority of MRAs, who claim to not be part of a hate group, who claim to be fighting for the rights of a disenfranchised group of people, need to step up and condemn what’s happening here. I’m going to go ahead and not hold my breath.

MRAL, I’m glad to see you’re not endorsing this.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

Victoria — EXACTLY. The people who really need to be speaking out about this are the ones who can say “I think men sometimes get a raw deal in the courts and we need better education for boys, but holy shit, I didn’t sign on for THIS.”

There’s got to be people who identify as MRAs, who have their issues with women, but still realize it’s fucked up to be placing goddamn bounties on people. I really hope some of them speak up.

ozymandias42
10 years ago

I think men sometimes get a raw deal in the courts and we need better education for boys, but putting bounties on people is a damn terrible idea.

…Of course, they hate my guts, so. 🙂

Quackers
Quackers
10 years ago

@Ozy

Another thing I keep thinking is that $1000 could have been used towards a shelter for men, or towards creating a men’s charity or college scholarship. But what do we know right?

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

I think men sometimes get a raw deal in the courts and we need better education for boys, but putting bounties on people is a damn terrible idea.

Boys already are fawned over in the school system. The problem appears to be more in their culture, similar to how a major barrier to entry for women in science is women’s own gender-policing (Except women *also* face institutional bias in some sciences, though by no means all).

And men only get a raw deal in the criminal courts, in the US; that’s bad, but it’s not the entire court system by a long shot, mercifully.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

*puts feet up to watch the chaos, cracks beer*

mythago
10 years ago

What’s the proper law-enforcement agency to report this to? The FBI? Is there a Swedish equivalent? Because, yo, they’re supposed to monitor hate groups.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

What’s the proper law-enforcement agency to report this to? The FBI? Is there a Swedish equivalent? Because, yo, they’re supposed to monitor hate groups.

The SPLC has good information on what to do with hate groups, but they’re not law enforcement. The national borders make this tricky, so I’m afraid I don’t have a good answer.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Brandon:

You know what they say, some people just like to watch the world burn.

magdelyn
10 years ago

I don’t defend register-her.com, and I’ve actively stated that people should not be put on it for having opinions. I even stated that I don’t think Amanda Marcotte should be on it (and I fucking hate Marcotte). That being said, the following statement I found interesting.

“…Every feminist I know who has seen the video has been appalled by it. I’m appalled by it. It’s hateful, and it’s wrong…”

Would every feminist you know (or any feminist you know) care about the video but for the $1000 bounty on the ladies who made the video? No. BTW, assuming it is true that you believe that there might be some danger to this posting, the same thing can be said for sex offenders, some of which were eighteen year old boys fucking their seventeen year old girlfriends.

But, you shouldn’t have your panties in a twist. After all, I’ve been lead to believe that there is no activism in the MRM.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@kirby: This isn’t the world burning. This is watching two groups of people fighting. Its like a political boxing match and I get to be a spectator.

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