The most common “critique” of the #mencallmethings hashtag that blew up on Twitter last week was that the women posting examples of misogynistic shit they got called online were making a big deal out of nothing. As the always-charming Ferdinand Bardamu so memorably put it:
It’s funny, then, that when MRAs find themselves described with less-than-flattering language they have a strange tendency to act like they’ve suddenly been struck with a case of the vapors. Witness the reaction of MRAs when someone calls them the “c-word.” No, not “cunt” – “creep.” As one outraged Men’s Rights Redditor recently put it, in a comment with 30+ net upvotes:
Creep shaming is probably one of the most insidious and anti-equality things you can do. The ability to label men as “creepy” is just one privilege that women enjoy, and a constant source of fear of ostracizing that all men must fear in our society.
When MRAs feel themselves being oppressed by such clearly man-hating language, they often refer to something called the Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics, which, well, catalogues their language grievances in detail. According to the author of the Catalogue,
Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.
Such shaming tactics, the author of the Catalogue says, with no evident awareness of the irony, are often used by “histrionic … female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic” and the male “gynocentrists” who ally with them.
Here are some of the awful “shaming” remarks that get directed at MRAs, according to the Catalogue of Shaming Tactics:
“Stop whining!”
“Suck it up like a man!”
“You need to get over your anger at women.”
“You’re afraid of a strong woman!”
“You are so immature!”
“You are just bitter because you can’t get laid.”
“Are you gay?”
“That’s a sexist stereotype!”
“You need therapy.”
“You make me feel afraid.”
“Weirdo!”
“Loser!”
“You are so materialistic.”
“No woman will marry you with that attitude.”
“You are insensitive to the plight of women.”
Is that last one even an insult? It’s a fairly accurate description of a lot of MRAs, who take a certain pride in being “insensitive to the plight of women.”
So now that we’ve seen the horrible abuse that MRAs have to put up with on a daily basis, let’s take a quick look at some of the things that women and feminists regularly get from their detractors, as posted to the #mencallmethings hashtag and sent to Sady Doyle, who originated the hashtag. (These are all taken from a great post she did in the aftermath of #mencallmethings’ big blowup.) I think you will find the comparison instructive. Let’s start with the more straightforward slurs. (TRIGGER WARNING for, well, just about everything in the quotes that follow.)
Slut, cunt, bitch, whore, ugly, dyke, lesbo, unfuckable, crazy, delusional, liar, hysterical, autistic bitch child, feminazi, ballbuster, humorless, heartless whore, man hater, misandrist, stupid little girl, shrieky hysterical moron, airhead, spoiled little princess, stupid bitch, stupid fucking cunt, stupid feminazi cunt, an ugly bitter little woman, cumm guzzling closet lesbian, a pseudo-intellectual Insane Oversensitive Humourless Female supremacist.
Now let’s move on to complete sentences:
“You’re an ugly fucking cunt.”
“That sort of smirk is why God invented anal sex.”
“you’re so ugly you look like you have downs syndrome, you’d be thankful to be raped.”
“hope you catch a sexually transmitted disease or vagina cancer, cuntwit.”
”Stick a dildo up your dry vagina.”
“the only time your mouth should be open is when i’m putting my d–k in it”
“Your just a gay cunt who deserves to be punished.”
“A firm backhand to her whore face would provide her with a much needed attitude adjustment.”
“Fuck you bitch….ya need to get beat like ur pops use to do to u.”
“I hope you never have children, your daughters would be such sluts and end up murdered in a gutter by someone like me.”
You’re “not worth the effort to murder.”
“[The] only tragedy is that a bullet didn’t rip through ur brainstem after u were used 4 ur 1 & only purpose in this world.”
“what a long winded bitch. You certainly do need to be gagged.”
“You’re an annoying bitch with no friends.I’d love to run you over with my truck.”
“you stupid bitch, I should fuck the crazy right out of you.”
”i surely hope that one day you get raped.”
“[You] can’t be a female scientist, that phrase is an oxymoron,”
“it’s painfully obvious you’re a woman, get off the internet.”
“I will fuck your ass to death you filthy fucking whore. Your only worth on this planet is as a warm hole.”
“Do you need to file a hurt feelings report?”
As I noted before, despite my general unpopularity in the MRA world, I tend to get fewer of these things than, for example, most feminist bloggers with a similar degree of internet notoriety. But I get them. Here, for example, is the latest comment I’ve gotten from the guy who calls himself Nugganu, a sort of follow-up to a previous comment I quoted earlier in which he imagined me raped by ten black men:
He certainly does have a vivid imagination.
But, yeah, somehow it’s a little hard for me to feel a ton of sympathy for MRAs who so regularly work themselves into a lather over “shaming language” like “creep” and “loser” and “you are insensitive to the plight of women.”
Well of course “creepy” is a big deal to them! It’s not like when they tell women they should die horribly for daring to speak online. “Creepy” is being directed at them. Add that’s just mean! Don’t you have any compassion? WAAAAAH
Have you no shameeee!! XD
Yeah, I guess… sometimes though I feel like “too far” doesn’t go far enough. I’m kind of with you, but I want to kick ass harder?
Improbable Joe, I think this is the kind of situation where the best way to kick ass harder is to take and hold the high ground, so to speak.
Dracula, I agree with you in principle, but from an emotional standpoint it feels like we’re all forced to tiptoe around while the bad guys stomp around like Mechagodzilla.
Dracula, I think what Joe is saying is that the only language these guys understand is foul and hateful. Reasonable arguments go right over their heads lol.
That’s not a bad thing, Joe. I remember you posting some really good stuff over at Skepchick during the Elevatorgate apocalypse, and there was a marked false equivalence being drawn between Rebecca Watson’s supporters and the really rabid trolls: the virulent woman-hating hyperbole being used by the trolls bore no relationship at all to the arguments being made in support of Rebecca. So let them stomp about like Mechagodzilla (lovely imagery), there’s no need to adopt their tactics.
Close, Joanna… what I’m saying is that I feel like there’s an urge to purity of behavior that leads people to avoid offense or “lowering yourself” as though it is a worthy goal in itself that is at least equal to other goals. I’m not 100% on board with that… I don’t mind getting down in the muck a little bit. I don’t think we need to be excessively “foul and hateful” but I also hate it when someone makes a strong statement in a positive direction and people decide that it needs to be weakened and diluted to avoid being offensive.
@Xanthe: if you remember me, you probably saw some of the ass-kicking that Aquaria was doing at the same time across multiple websites. You know, sometimes the rhetoric is to refute the false claims in a calm and rational manner. Sometimes it is for the spectators watching the conversation, even though you know it isn’t going to convince the person you’re arguing with. And sometimes, it is for us, so we can read it and do some fist-pumping and say “fuck yeah!”…
… and if we’re worried about lines and going too far, we lose most of those fist-pump moments. I worry about avoiding offense leading to stifling passion, that’s all.
Their catalogue of shaming tactics is so ridiculous. First, they declare all of the arguments to be ad hominem attacks even though several of them are factual statements. Many of the MRA’s really are extremists, scare others, and make generalizations about women. People telling them that are giving them helpful advice. They’re not going to win too many hearts and minds with the way they talk. Whenever they bring up important topics about helping men and boys, their message gets lost in all the vitriol.
I think it’s important to know what they said before someone used a “shaming tactic” on them. Usually, the thing they said is so vile, they really should be ashamed. People should be ashamed when they act like assholes. I also agree with Naira that if they’re hearing the same arguments over and over, they need to look inward and wonder if maybe they are the ones with the problem and not the rest of the world.
Just a question, not connected to the general topic of this thread… The MRA’s you mock here are pretty extreme types, comparable to radical feminists. There are other MRA’s who are more moderate and actually concentrate on real issues — people who actually do distance themselves from the ones you all mock here and are actually interested in real-life situations rather than imaginary wrongs. Do you draw a distinction between them, or do you act as if the MRA’s you mock here actually spoke for all?
I’m not myself involved in this fight, I’m just curious about you guys’ take on this.
Improbable Joe: I can be a lot less than, “pure” if pure means being gentle. I can be lethally polite, in fact.
I can also people shit for brains when the occasion demands. Depends on the situation, but if I deny the basic humanity of my opponents, I can lose the sense of focus required.
Not least because I know the odds of persuading them is slim; and if I lose the quiet sorts, who are afraid to wade in… then I’m not doing it to persuade, but to please myself.
That’s wanking in public.
@thebionicmommy: Naira totally ripped me off with that whole “if they’re hearing the same arguments over and over, they need to look inward” business. I’ll take it as flattery rather than theft… 🙂
Improbable Joe, it’s more like great minds think alike!
@ Joe, yes Aquaria was awesome – though I can’t help thinking she might have been someone Dawkins was thinking of when he asked for “explain this to me without using the word fuck in every sentence”. I don’t have a problem with anger and passion at all, it’s hyperbolic ranting being mistaken for an argument that is not the same thing.
@thebionicmommy: I would call it “great minds think alike” other than the fact that I posted that exact thing here on Thursday, and Naira responded to the post. 🙂
http://manboobz.com/2011/11/08/please-killl-yourselves-mras-respond-to-mencallmethings/comment-page-8/#comment-80135
@Xanthe: I think Dawkins was being an idiot and a tone-troll in that instance, so maybe that’s not the best example to sway me… 😀
“Because denying the basic humanity of those who disagree with you is never okay, no matter how stupid their ideas are.”
Dracula, it’s not a matter of “disagreeing with me” – they lack empathy, compassion and any trace of postive human emotions.
Something went wrong somewhere. Could it be genetic?
Lacking empathy doesn’t make you not human. Neither does being a jerk. And acting like an asshole does nothing to prove you aren’t capable of positive emotions.
Hey, Dracula, leave the human-judging to humans. You can decide whether someone’s a vampire or not (although I would suggest you disqualify Edward Cullen).
@ Joe: Oh, I think Dawkins was in the wrong and showed his need for some consciousness-raising of his own. I notice he got quite a few diatribes as well as passionate responses that avoided the fuck word so the message should have gotten across somehow!
@ Xanthe: part of why I lost respect for Dawkins in that situation was when he pulled that “my delicate eyes had to read the word ‘fuck’ one too many times and my brain turned off” nonsense.
Everyone has their asshole moments now and then. I have hope for a lot of the MRA’s. I view the MRM as a type of cult that can suck men (and some women) in during times of stress. I think those are the ones that can be reasoned with and helped. The ones that are the most radical and angry, though, are on their own until they can calm down, as far as I’m concerned.
I keep feeling sorry for the MRA’s, even when they’re hurling out insults and abuse to other people. I do not, however, think anyone in the real world owes them any attention or affection, though, just because they’re miserable. Nobody is entitled to have other people to try to make zim happy, especially when zie acts abusive.
You can decide whether someone’s a vampire or not (although I would suggest you disqualify Edward Cullen).
Oh, Edward Cullen’s a vampire, much as I’d like say otherwise. He’s just a chump.
You know what? I’m not going to defend “you probably can’t get laid” or “man up” or “be a real man” or “are you gay or something?” because I don’t say that shit because it IS crappy and shaming and buying into an idea of masculinity and for the umpteen gajillionth time, sexism hurts men, too.
However, when someone releases a giant fart of rapey threatening woman-hate and then complains that women don’t like them (or is it just American women, or Western women?), it is not evil or sexist to say “Gee, I wonder why you are having a hard time connecting with women.” That doesn’t mean “You are bad because you are a man,” it means “Whoa, you’re not doing a good job hiding that anger, and people are probably picking up on that.”
And “You make me feel afraid” (when doing stuff like telling me about how a post of mine makes you reach for “your proverbial gun”) seems like a pretty apt way to describe it.
@Dracula: No. Vampires don’t sparkle.