The most common “critique” of the #mencallmethings hashtag that blew up on Twitter last week was that the women posting examples of misogynistic shit they got called online were making a big deal out of nothing. As the always-charming Ferdinand Bardamu so memorably put it:
It’s funny, then, that when MRAs find themselves described with less-than-flattering language they have a strange tendency to act like they’ve suddenly been struck with a case of the vapors. Witness the reaction of MRAs when someone calls them the “c-word.” No, not “cunt” – “creep.” As one outraged Men’s Rights Redditor recently put it, in a comment with 30+ net upvotes:
Creep shaming is probably one of the most insidious and anti-equality things you can do. The ability to label men as “creepy” is just one privilege that women enjoy, and a constant source of fear of ostracizing that all men must fear in our society.
When MRAs feel themselves being oppressed by such clearly man-hating language, they often refer to something called the Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics, which, well, catalogues their language grievances in detail. According to the author of the Catalogue,
Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.
Such shaming tactics, the author of the Catalogue says, with no evident awareness of the irony, are often used by “histrionic … female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic” and the male “gynocentrists” who ally with them.
Here are some of the awful “shaming” remarks that get directed at MRAs, according to the Catalogue of Shaming Tactics:
“Stop whining!”
“Suck it up like a man!”
“You need to get over your anger at women.”
“You’re afraid of a strong woman!”
“You are so immature!”
“You are just bitter because you can’t get laid.”
“Are you gay?”
“That’s a sexist stereotype!”
“You need therapy.”
“You make me feel afraid.”
“Weirdo!”
“Loser!”
“You are so materialistic.”
“No woman will marry you with that attitude.”
“You are insensitive to the plight of women.”
Is that last one even an insult? It’s a fairly accurate description of a lot of MRAs, who take a certain pride in being “insensitive to the plight of women.”
So now that we’ve seen the horrible abuse that MRAs have to put up with on a daily basis, let’s take a quick look at some of the things that women and feminists regularly get from their detractors, as posted to the #mencallmethings hashtag and sent to Sady Doyle, who originated the hashtag. (These are all taken from a great post she did in the aftermath of #mencallmethings’ big blowup.) I think you will find the comparison instructive. Let’s start with the more straightforward slurs. (TRIGGER WARNING for, well, just about everything in the quotes that follow.)
Slut, cunt, bitch, whore, ugly, dyke, lesbo, unfuckable, crazy, delusional, liar, hysterical, autistic bitch child, feminazi, ballbuster, humorless, heartless whore, man hater, misandrist, stupid little girl, shrieky hysterical moron, airhead, spoiled little princess, stupid bitch, stupid fucking cunt, stupid feminazi cunt, an ugly bitter little woman, cumm guzzling closet lesbian, a pseudo-intellectual Insane Oversensitive Humourless Female supremacist.
Now let’s move on to complete sentences:
“You’re an ugly fucking cunt.”
“That sort of smirk is why God invented anal sex.”
“you’re so ugly you look like you have downs syndrome, you’d be thankful to be raped.”
“hope you catch a sexually transmitted disease or vagina cancer, cuntwit.”
”Stick a dildo up your dry vagina.”
“the only time your mouth should be open is when i’m putting my d–k in it”
“Your just a gay cunt who deserves to be punished.”
“A firm backhand to her whore face would provide her with a much needed attitude adjustment.”
“Fuck you bitch….ya need to get beat like ur pops use to do to u.”
“I hope you never have children, your daughters would be such sluts and end up murdered in a gutter by someone like me.”
You’re “not worth the effort to murder.”
“[The] only tragedy is that a bullet didn’t rip through ur brainstem after u were used 4 ur 1 & only purpose in this world.”
“what a long winded bitch. You certainly do need to be gagged.”
“You’re an annoying bitch with no friends.I’d love to run you over with my truck.”
“you stupid bitch, I should fuck the crazy right out of you.”
”i surely hope that one day you get raped.”
“[You] can’t be a female scientist, that phrase is an oxymoron,”
“it’s painfully obvious you’re a woman, get off the internet.”
“I will fuck your ass to death you filthy fucking whore. Your only worth on this planet is as a warm hole.”
“Do you need to file a hurt feelings report?”
As I noted before, despite my general unpopularity in the MRA world, I tend to get fewer of these things than, for example, most feminist bloggers with a similar degree of internet notoriety. But I get them. Here, for example, is the latest comment I’ve gotten from the guy who calls himself Nugganu, a sort of follow-up to a previous comment I quoted earlier in which he imagined me raped by ten black men:
He certainly does have a vivid imagination.
But, yeah, somehow it’s a little hard for me to feel a ton of sympathy for MRAs who so regularly work themselves into a lather over “shaming language” like “creep” and “loser” and “you are insensitive to the plight of women.”
Of course, Whatever is making a much more nuanced argument … he’s also saying that women are stupid and gullible for falling for Mr. Al’s lies. Instead of, like, what does it cost to have a tiny bit of sympathy for someone who (although generally an asshole) appears to be in pain and might benefit from a smidge of human kindness or sound advice.
NOPE. It costs a lot, apparently, because now Whatever thinks we’re simps! Oh noes! And I so desperately wanted to be in the good graces of a child rape apologist, too!
Sympathy costs nothing. Sensible advice based on personal experience costs nothing except a small amount of time. Even if the person requesting this advice has dubious motives, if it’s all appearing in public there’s always a chance someone else might glean something useful from it. So who exactly loses out here?
In any case, even if MRAL was completely stringing us along, he’s demonstrated that the canard that this blog’s commentariat is entirely made up of extreme feminists who’d like nothing more than to ship all men out to a concentration camp on an otherwise deserted island is wildly untrue – which is itself a bonus.
@Improbable Joe: Mansplaining lies not in what you say but when and where you say it.
And if you think there are only ‘two sides’ on any complicated social issue, then there’s not much more point in talking, is there.
*sighs* Is there really any point to the my-feminism-is-better-than-your-feminism-ing?
Whatever: This is one of those catch-22s, isn’t it? Because if we didn’t have sympathy for him, you would think we were TEH EVULZ WIMMINZ who couldn’t ever muster up sympathy for a man.
Dude, on my blog right now we have a bunch of men sharing their experience with virginity– many of whom were virgins into their twenties or thirties. You know what they have in common? Not blaming women, not being MGTOW and (quite often) saying that touch-starvation and loneliness were as bad as the virginity itself.
NC4OM: I’m actually more in favor of revising all of them in the areas where they need to be revised, Katz.
No. You are in favor of making them conform to your ideas of good. There is a not-so subtle difference.
Cassandra: Is this like how we can pretend that the existence of the caste system is irrelevant to discussions of Hinduism, because woo says that we can just ignore the bits of a religion that we don’t like?
Yes, because Caste isn’t, “required”, it’s just social, but Sharia (and wahabbist Sharia, in particular) is essential, even though it’s not in the Q’uran.
NC4OM: CASSANDRA and PERCUNIUM,
Get over it! One of you qouted the other in a comment and that’s why I addressed the other. My bad. Move on already.
I didn’t chastise you for imputing my words to another. That happens. I chastised you for taking liberties to which you aren’t entitled, and have not earned.
For one who claims to have so great, and comprehensive, an understanding of how to read things for conttent, you have a tin ear for interpersonal dynamic, and can’t be arsed to go so far as to spell a name correctly.
It’s rude.
Whatever: I’m going to treat this as if it were something approaching non-ridiculous.
What do you mean by, “involuntarily celibate” (and ignoring, mostly, my personal peeve about the drift of that word. It means, “to not marry” and is not the same as abstinence, but I digress).
More to the point, what do you think should be done to “fix” this problem.
Because you know, there is more than one person involved in having sex. If the person someone approaches (because this happens to women too) isn’t interested, does the “incel” get to whip out some sort of card and say, “I’ve been without sex for 6 months, you have to put out for me.”
Really. What would you do to fix this, while maintaining people’s autonomy.
“That’s not true at all. Several people were extremely supportive towards MRAL when he came clean about his various social anxieties a few months ago, because he revealed genuine vulnerability behind the hate-filled bravado that fuels the vast majority of his posts here.”
I know alot of guys with social anxiety. Being Asian, “my people” usually get stereotyped into the nerdy crowd, or the smelling like curry and trying too hard crowd. I have a certain sympathy for guys with social anxiety and therefore I steer them away from the online manosphere. They’re walking a tight line. The manosphere can, and as we see in some cases, does, trigger those who have frustration from a lifetime or years of being considered “uncool” in school and college.
These guys are otherwise nice guys but the manosphere sends them over the edge. That’s why they need to stay away from these “mens rights” blogs, which have nothing to do with actual rights but serve as a ground for these men to bait other men into hating women, and, guess what – never getting laid, so they defeat their purpose.
Men working against the happiness of other men.
With buddies like that, who needs Feminazis?
“Wow, I’m an MRA troll who’s into bestiality and isn’t nice? What a fine how-do-you-do on a Monday morning.”
How do you do, Hellkell?
🙂
Ankylosaur:
There really aren’t. We’ve looked.
JenniferP:
I wouldn’t disagree that “you make me feel afraid ” is “shaming” but I think it’s more important that it’s (presumably) straightforwardly true in a way that, e.g., “slut” is not.
Slavey:
I was worried when I posted that comment that it was drifting towards MRAdom. Slavey’s anti-endorsement actually makes me feel a whole lot better about it.
Improbable:
The fact that you have to point this out should give rise to the suspicion that you haven’t been spectacularly successful at it.
Pecdunium:
I hate to break the Eleventh Commandment, but the use of the word “success” in this context takes for granted some bad and maladaptive attitudes about sex — I’m not saying you hold those attitudes, but you’re using language that reflects them.
The Eleventh Commandment? “Thou shalt not get caught”?
“Thou shalt not criticize thine philosophical/political fellows.” Reagan wasn’t completely worthless.
Hey all….Jeebus P. Krikey, who started the internal shitstorm? Holy cats, happy fucking Monday, indeed….lol. Can’t we all just get along? Except for Slavey, he lives on a diet of pure hostility. 😛
10G, that was probably me.
But in the immortal words of Louis Jordan:
LOL@Hellkell!! 😉 I’m in a good mood right now because I caught the Smithereens last night–GREAT show, and a sweet bunch of guys!
But I’m sure after I read Slavey’s and Brandon’s rantings that will change right quick….;)
“Of course, there are those who developed serious mental and sexual issues because they are involuntarily virgins/involuntary celibate. Deprivation and frustration can twist and warp a man’s psyche, considering how all-powerful the male libido is in young boys.”
So your saying that’s how you became the twisted, illogical person that you are today? Sorry, kiddo, you don’t get to blame your lack of ethics on the mean women who wouldn’t sleep with you.
“Dude, on my blog right now we have a bunch of men sharing their experience with virginity– many of whom were virgins into their twenties or thirties. You know what they have in common? Not blaming women, not being MGTOW and (quite often) saying that touch-starvation and loneliness were as bad as the virginity itself.”
You know, much as I think that the idea that lack of sex can turn you into someone like Whatever, I can see how overall touch-starvation might do it. That’s definitely the vibe I get from NWO, that lack of any warmth or affection at all in his life has helped to warp him into the little ball of hate that he is now.
“Deprivation and frustration can twist and warp a man’s psyche, considering how all-powerful the male libido is in young boys.”
So you’re saying young boys should be having sex?!?!?
Maybe they should be getting more hugs from their moms instead.
FactFinder, I don’t offer to help guys out with their problems because, first, I realize that since guys’ problems are guy-problems my womanly input would probably not be too useful; second, b/c there’s something impertinent in offering help to people who haven’t requested it; third, b/c I haven’t got my own life straightened out, so I leave the offering of help to those possessed of better and wiser heads than mine; fourth, because I’m aware that some men out there are likely to interpret any offer of help emanating from a woman as just another case in which a female is trying to boss a man around; and fifth, because I’ve got a sincere, severe allergy to telling men what to do. In fact, I’ve got a sincere, severe aversion to telling other people what to do, and it’s my view that very strong aversions are there for a reason and ought to obeyed. If the thought of eating spinach displeases you intensely you ought to stay away from spinach.
I acknowledge that men endure a constant belittling founded on the circumstance that they’re just people and not overpowering creatures sprung from the mists of legend. If your idea is that in order to qualify for inclusion in GuyWorld you’ve got to be Leonidas the War King, then sure, you’re going to end up vulnerable to accusations that you’re too short and too fat and haven’t sired enough sons on enough captive maidens and that you don’t rule a polity of your own, all of which makes you a Loser. People may use this vision, or version, of the way the world works to tease you, and the media will certainly use it to get you to part with your money. The question I’d like to ask, though, is: did this vision or version of the way the world works originate with women? Was it something cooked up by feminine brains, then imposed on unsuspecting males? Granted that women do a significant portion of pointing and grinning on this basis, don’t men do about as much of it or more? Isn’t most of the Real-Man stuff a performance intended to impress, not women, but other men?
Last: if you were to charge me with having made fun of stupid ideas propagated by men, I’d have to reply that I’m guilty. I have mocked mockable ideas circulated by men, and I’ve also done as much for stupid ideas circulated by women. I’ve been told that my own bad ideas were bad, and I have copped to the fact that they were bad, publicly or silently. I have to tell you that this isn’t a score on which my conscience is perfectly at ease, though. I justify my conduct to myself by holding to the notion that what I’m making fun of is ideas and not the people who support them; none of this is personally meant. I agree that it’s a fine distinction, but it’s a distinction in which I believe. And I don’t make a habit of directly calling anyone an asshole or a dickweed, if only b/c that’s a dialect I was brought up not to speak.
So your saying that’s how you became the twisted, illogical person that you are today? Sorry, kiddo, you don’t get to blame your lack of ethics on the mean women who wouldn’t sleep with you.
I guess this type of mocking is the sort of thing that achieves social justice rather than just pissing people off and demonstrating the underlying cruelty of the feminist movement. After all, who hasn’t thought back to the time they turned feminist after seeing a snarky gal call a guy “kiddo” and make fun of the perceived lack of notches on his bedpost?
Or did you just join the feminist movement because you could try to hurt men you don’t like under the guise of achieving “social justice?”
On the other hand, Norwegian rape advocate Eivind Berge appears to have got himself a girlfriend for much of the past year (prior to that, he was pretty much a textbook incel), but it doesn’t seem to have done anything to alter his mindset – he’s still ranting about “feminist terror”. But I suspect he’s partly feeding off his own notoriety.
No, it’s a weary recognition of the undoubted fact that nothing anyone here says or does will make the slightest difference to NWO. Or DKM, come to that. Whatever happened to them in the past to make them the way they are now, it’s too long ago and too deep-seated for anyone other than a therapist to be able to do much with.
On the other hand, compare and contrast the very different treatment of MRAL – who gets rightly mocked for his obnoxious asshattery, but who has also been on the receiving end of some very sensitive and understanding comments.
So your sweeping generalizations just don’t stand up to the evidence.
Wow, FactFinder, you sure are devoted to the idea that men are delicate, fragile creatures who must be patiently coddled even as they explain how they feel that they have a right to rape children. I mean, I’d hate to hurt the feelings of someone who thinks that it’s OK to force kids to trade sex for food.
I just think that you should watch your tongue around men before you start trying to ban skinny models from the catwalk. You know, worry about the overt messages before the subliminal ones.
Your snarky attitudes are never justified no matter what, and the world could use more kindness and understanding and not more “riot grrrl” anger and seething power struggles. If you think that open, impersonal, and professional dialogue is something the world needs less of, ironically enough I do not know what to say to you.