Well, that was … instructive. The Twitter hashtag extravaganza that is #mencallmethings is still going strong. But I think at this point it’s safe to say that it has basically served it’s purpose: to highlight the obnoxious, obscene, often threatening misogynist shit that women who express their opinions about almost anything on the internet get in their inboxes or in comments online on a regular basis. Women with feminist blogs who actually call out this kind of misogyny get this sort of abuse basically every day.
Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown, who started up this hashtag campaign, explained in an eloquent and angry blog post why she did it: to point out how absolutely routine this sort of shit is. When she started her blog, she really hadn’t anticipated the sheer volume of vicious shit she’d get:
I got targeted. With threats, with insults, with smear campaigns, with attempts to threaten my employment or credibility or just general ability to get through the day with a healthy attitude and a minimal amount of insult.
The intent of all this abuse is simple: to intimidate. When someone says to a woman online “I hope you get raped with a chainsaw,” the point is to get her to shut up. The person who posts this sort of violent shit, Doyle notes,
hopes that the next time you sit down to write, you’ll remember that yikesy chainsaw-rape thing and think, “you know? Maybe this isn’t such a great idea. Maybe I don’t need to say this. Maybe I’ll piss someone off, and maybe it will be more than I can handle, and you know, maybe my thoughts on this topic just ARE NOT IMPORTANT ENOUGH for me to risk the headache/fear/irritation/distress/panic attack I know I will get.”
And then, when you say that aloud, they call you a whiny little girl who can’t handle the Internet. Because, of COURSE multiple chainsaw-rape comments aren’t a big deal! They’re just words! Sticks and stones! …
To you, my friends, I say: Fuck that noise. All of this matters. A hostile work environment matters. Being afraid of your own in-box matters. Deleting your blog because that’s the only way for you to have a normal, non-hate-filled life matters. “Accepting” that continual, virulent, hateful misogynist abuse is a pre-condition for being a lady who talks about thing, or for challenging sexism in any way, no matter who you are: That matters. And if you think we’re fragile, well. LET US COUNT THE WAYS we have hacked it, under conditions your pampered manly self just cannot imagine. LET US DEMONSTRATE FOR YOU the shit we wade through, every day, in order to talk about whether or not we liked that one “Community” episode or Lady GaGa album.
Naturally, critics of the whole hashtag campaign have done their best to minimize and dismiss this sort of routine harassment in exactly the ways that Doyle predicted they would.
The charming Ferdinand Bardamu of In Mala Fide responded to #mencallmethings with a bunch of obnoxious comments that conveniently proved basically every point Sady Doyle was trying to make with the hashtag in the first place. He started off with this bit of rapier wit:
He followed this up with a clumsy fat joke:
He continued on in this vein for awhile, so proud of his insightful critiques that he made a blog post about it.
Encouraged by Bardamu’s example, blogger PMAFT (Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Technology) announced a #MenCallMeThings Trolling Contest. The highlight of his own contributions to this contest:
Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, c0mputar offered slightly more coherent, if equally misguided, response.
The reality is that most of the “misogyny” they face is just criticism to their feminist viewpoints. I see this a lot when I confront feminists arguments, present my arguments, and get called a misogynist, amongst other things characterized by misandry. It happens on both sides …
Really now? Here are some actual examples of comments posted on #mencallmethings (taken from a comment from Shaenon in the discussion here).
here’s some to start: ‘I’ll rape your mum, faggot fuck’ “I’ll come to your house and kill you”
#mencallmethings, impersonate me on FB, & make disgusting sexual comments, post my name & # when I helped organize Slutwalk
cunt, whore, ugly, disgusting, cold, feminazi, shut the fuck up bitch, manipulative, crazy, playing the victim, sociopath
Bitch, whore, being sensitive, little girl, dumb, subject of jokes involving physical and sexual assault.
Any variation on fat and/or ugly at this point just makes me yawn.
I’ve had so many emails and messages telling me I deserve a beating, I don’t even keep track any longer.
“13? Judging by the size of your titties, I’d of thought you were 18.”
(censored version) If you keep talking the way you do, you deserved to get raped.
My #mencallmethings moment – receiving an email consisting of 1600 lines plus of the same insult over and over. My crime? Being fat.
I’ve had so many guys tell me how good I must be in bed because I’m fat and therefor will do anyone
I usually get ‘sweetheart’ just before they dismiss my argument as being ‘stupid’. No counter argument.
Will not repeat the violence that’s been directed at me but this one made me laugh “Blubbering self-important herd animal.”
apparently I’m a lesbian… I was unaware until #mencallmethings.
I’M ON ANTI-DEPRESSANTS AND I CANT EVEN JERK OFF CORRECTLY NOW & ITS BECAUSE OF WOMEN SO FUCK ALL YOU INFERIOR COWS
“You should have your tongue ripped out.”
I get sent one rape threat a month on average.
I was once told “get back in the kitchen you ugly bitch” for posting on a Linux board (can’t remember which one now)
Have you ever wanted someone to tell you that your genetalia should be stapled shut with bugs inside, start a blog
How about being choked to death during a forced blowjob? Start a feminist blog.
Not worth the effort to murder: the most recent example of what I had to delete off the blog when #mencallmethings
C0mputar, in his Reddit post, went on to offer another argument that seems to be a favorite of those trying to trivialize the abuse catalogued by the contributors to #mencallmethings:
In the end, veterans of the internet know there is no protected demographic. Everyone gets shit on, but if you make a point of belonging with a group, you get shit on even more, and more so the smaller you are. You know who gets shit on more than feminists? MRAs.
Really? Some MRA types on Twitter tried to get a rival hashtag going: #womencallmethings. Needless to say, they didn’t have much to work with.
One Man Boobz non-fan — whom I banned for his repeated comments about anal rape — tried to post a sarcastic little comment here last night dismissing #mencallmethings on similar grounds. Here’s a screenshot from my wordpress account, with his identifying data erased:
Let’s just, for contrast, take a look at the previous comment he tried to post here:
Another day, another “hope you get raped” comment.
Ironically, though I’m pretty thoroughly disliked across the manosphere, I actually get a lot less of this sort of abuse than most reasonably well-known feminist bloggers who happen to be non-dudes. Oh, sure, I get called a “traitor” and a “mangina,” and once in a while someone points out that I’m, you know, fat, but when it comes to the really nasty shit, the abusive commenters and emailers seem to much prefer going after women. This may be because they are misogynistic assholes. That’s just a theory, though.
“This is how my husband and I got together. And MRAL, guess what? He’s only 5’4″!!! Shorter than me! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.”
Almost every dude I have ever wanted to bonk has been MRAL’s height. When I first met Lucien my first thought was “Crud, why is he so effing *tall*?” It does make kissing a little more difficult sometimes. 😉
@hellkell: *high fives you* In regard to height, which I never think to mention: I’m 5’6ish, and she’s 5’ish! SHORTER THAN ME OMG but (in before MRAL), of course that means nothing at all for women. ONLY MEN OMG!
What on earth does this mean? And why are you trying to pick up arrogant women anyway? Why not go for pleasant women who have fewer hang-ups about irrelevant surface detail?
I suspect you’d reject two of my girlfriends out of hand, on the grounds of one being overweight and the other because her MS compels her to walk with a stick. And yet they’re amongst the most wickedly imaginative sexual partners I’ve ever had – and great company out of bed too.
Seriously, MRAL, if you stopped looking at male-female interaction as being something out of an implausibly gymnastic porno movie and actually started listening to the many excellent points made in these threads by real-life women who’ve actually lived a bit, you might end up resolving that all too evident frustration.
@Molly
In a word, “Yup”
@ Joanna – I personally have never actually slept with a guy like that, but I’ve certainly encountered them and had them hit on me. Most of my friends have encountered them in a far more up close and personal way.
@Cassandra – Some guys just really like being good in bed 😉
>>That’s why I married a big guy. I am personally not a fan of muscular men even though TV keeps saying that’s what women like.
My brothers are leftist trad skinheads. I’ve thus been exposed to enough muscle boys through their friend network to think that the muscles seem to be more for the benefit of other men than for that of women. 🙂
(Not necessarily in an homosexual way, but definitely in an homosocial way… and I’m not discounting 100% the homosexual way for some of them, though I unfortunately wasn’t able to confirm for myself. ;))
Cunnilingus is the only sexual act I can think of that stimulates all five senses simultaneously to a quite overwhelming degree.
And my partners seem to like it too, which is a bonus.
“Which is really weird, because women are like 52% of the population, so I don’t see how that’s really possible, except for I know it is when I’m “out in the field”.”
It’s because when you are “out in the field” you are still you, angry young man with a chip on his shoulder and a grudge against women and low self-esteem. Women notice this. It makes them want to avoid you. It also makes them think that sex with you would be unpleasant.
I know lots of men who don’t have to “line up and claw and fight” for sex or relationships. That’s not men, the group, that’s you, the individual, and there are reasons why it’s that way for you. Until you address those reasons nothing is going to change for you.
“Until you address those reasons nothing is going to change for you.”
Talking to a wall =P
So this subtly changed to the MRAL show once again. *sigh*
@MRAL: You’re 19. Cry me a river. I was a virgin till 21 and I didn’t really get on the love train till 24. Now at 32 I’m not having any problem at all getting partners. I’d say 99% of the problem was myself, not women. Stop the self-pity party and get on the self-improvement party.
“My brothers are leftist trad skinheads. I’ve thus been exposed to enough muscle boys through their friend network to think that the muscles seem to be more for the benefit of other men than for that of women.”
Is it like the big penis thing? *curious*
So this subtly changed to the MRAL show once again. *sigh*
Well, it did have the advantage of turning into The Brandon Show before that. Makes the transition easier.
I think I prefer the MRAL show to the Brandon show, maybe because MRAL is young enough that there’s a glimmer of hope that he might grow out of it.
Holly, the premise is diluted because you’re clearly trying to make some lame ass “point”.
Instead, let’s say I got a nice offer from someone similar to you, on the OKCupid site you were talking about. I’d still say no to any proposals, but I would respond (this simple gesture puts me above about 75% of women on dating sites), and I’d take the time to write a nice response instead of some lame one-word crap or trollish/mean put-down (putting me above about 90% of women on dating sites).
Now let’s say I got a mean/crude offer like the one you made in your post. Would I respond? No, but I sure as hell wouldn’t be bitching about it. It’s the goddamn Internet, and someone thought I was attractive enough to write out a post inviting me to participate in sex. I might not verbalize it, but really, I’d still be flattered. I wouldn’t like this woman individually, nor take her up on her offer, but I’d feel validated in my own appeal to other women.
It’s also not about one person, it’s about a constant stream of attention you get from what is apparently hundreds of men- and again, let me point out that’s you’re NOT EVEN GOOD LOOKING. If any man got a constant stream of validation from others- even if it’s subjectively “creepy”, and even if he didn’t actually want to have sex with these people- I guarantee he would feel pretty damn good about himself, instead of bitching and moaning about how these people aren’t approaching him the “right” way.
Finally, I read your post, and you didn’t cite anything like that strawman anyway, but rather, men whom continued to pursue you despite the fact that you basically verbally abused them. That’s a reflection of the rudeness of women on OKC, that is, the fact that these men will glom onto a women who is receptive or friendly in the slightest, even if she later does a complete 180.
Also, are you saying all the men who messaged you were fat or ugly or whatever? I bet some were not.
I was able to change a friend of mine who was somewhat like MRAL. Now he’s a decent hard working, young man and we are the best of friends ^_^ Took a LOT of work though =P
Also, I’m not trying to turn this into the MRAL Show. I don’t think I’m unique here. All- well, most- men are in the same position, IMO.
Oh, and before someone busts out the inevitable “burly gay guy” question, it’s a bit different because I’d worry that I attracted men instead of women, and since I’m not attracted to men that’s a problem. However, I’d still enjoy the attention to a point, I wouldn’t be bitching about it, and I sure as hell wouldn’t be doing “experiments” to see how mean I can be to people before they’ll stop talking to me.
MARL, no woman wants to end up in bed with a guy who is afraid of vulvas.
I used to think I was afraid of vulvas… then I realized that I meant uvulas. Those things are CREEPY!
I completely agree. Out of the four main trolls here, DKM and Owlslave are clearly beyond any kind of useful redemption and Brandon is far too hilariously self-absorbed for anything to penetrate his tungsten-like carapace, but there’s a genuine vulnerability about MRAL that peeps through occasionally, which suggests that he’s not entirely unaware that he’s effectively digging his own grave by continuing to plough this pointlessly divisive MRA furrow.
I really really hope that in a few years’ time he’ll find himself a good woman and stick with her – and that a decade after that, having experienced what sex is like ten years into a genuinely loving relationship (a hint: pretty damn incredible), he’ll look back at his early-twenties self and shudder at what he once was, and the path he might have gone down if he hadn’t received such excellent advice.
Swedish? Do the men have to construct their own concentration camps from parts based on simple pictograms and with the use of a single screwdriver, then? 😀
Yeah… MRAL, if you would just put a cork in all the omgfuckinggashes blather, and lead with the “I like swimming and epic fantasy novels” and then shut up about more ranty topics you’d probably have more success in dating (and most other parts of life, too.)
It’s not a guarantee, but at least it’s a super simple and actionable improvement to make; don’t say anything actively bitter and hateful while trying to pick up women. Or hell, don’t say anything actively hateful just while talking to women — even women you are not personally interested in fucking, because at the most mercenary level those women probably know other women you would like to fuck. And FSM knows it should be easy to convince a little 19-year-old douchebro like yourself that women will let each other know their opinion of you if you’re only selectively hateful to the “fat” ones. :p
*sits MRAL on her knee, turns toward camera with grave expression* For only pennies a day, you can help this poor college kid learn how to interact decently with women. Boys like him all over the world struggle to not be douchebags as they wrestle with puberty, and without the help of feminists many of those boys grow into douchebag men, who then post long rants about fluffy women on blogs. Please, think of the bitter virgins; help undouchefy this brat, and make a better future for us all!
“And FSM knows it should be easy to convince a little 19-year-old douchebro like yourself that women will let each other know their opinion of you if you’re only selectively hateful to the “fat” ones. :p”
I’ve eliminate men from both my dating and my friends pool in the past who were perfectly charming to me because they were less than charming to other women. If a man is kind of a jerk, word often gets around.
So yeah – don’t be an asshole to the women you don’t want to fuck either, because they will tell their friends, and then those friends will tell their friends, and soon it will be hard to find a woman who hasn’t heard that you’re an asshole. This is even more true on a college campus than it is in most situations.
>>Is it like the big penis thing? *curious*
Big penis thing I think is about raw social status, since you can’t do much to improve it. It’s about asserting dominance over others by either demonstrating you’re more virile, or belittling someone with a smaller dick. With regard to body building, sure there is some status and preening in it, but there’s also social bonding.
I’ve been to parties where a bunch of guys discussed their training in depth for hours and the depth of the discussion was analoguous to what I might have with a fellow video game geek regarding the history of the genre, what I feel is better about game X versus game Y, etc… Lots of jargon, in-depth knowledge and nuanced arguments. Which I couldn’t follow half the time. 😉
You also get into discussions about *values*, where some will talk about aesthecism versus the pragmatic mindset (some like the look, some are willing to look like buff so that the muscles are actually efficient at their task, which in the context of these discussions usually revolved around the best way to get rid of a threat in a physical manner).
Whereas it’s not clear to me that the muscles were any improvement in the matter of sexual mating. Or that women cared, except in the most superficial way (they like or dislike muscle boys, without usually caring about more fine grained things like which muscle group and how developped they were).