Well, that was … instructive. The Twitter hashtag extravaganza that is #mencallmethings is still going strong. But I think at this point it’s safe to say that it has basically served it’s purpose: to highlight the obnoxious, obscene, often threatening misogynist shit that women who express their opinions about almost anything on the internet get in their inboxes or in comments online on a regular basis. Women with feminist blogs who actually call out this kind of misogyny get this sort of abuse basically every day.
Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown, who started up this hashtag campaign, explained in an eloquent and angry blog post why she did it: to point out how absolutely routine this sort of shit is. When she started her blog, she really hadn’t anticipated the sheer volume of vicious shit she’d get:
I got targeted. With threats, with insults, with smear campaigns, with attempts to threaten my employment or credibility or just general ability to get through the day with a healthy attitude and a minimal amount of insult.
The intent of all this abuse is simple: to intimidate. When someone says to a woman online “I hope you get raped with a chainsaw,” the point is to get her to shut up. The person who posts this sort of violent shit, Doyle notes,
hopes that the next time you sit down to write, you’ll remember that yikesy chainsaw-rape thing and think, “you know? Maybe this isn’t such a great idea. Maybe I don’t need to say this. Maybe I’ll piss someone off, and maybe it will be more than I can handle, and you know, maybe my thoughts on this topic just ARE NOT IMPORTANT ENOUGH for me to risk the headache/fear/irritation/distress/panic attack I know I will get.”
And then, when you say that aloud, they call you a whiny little girl who can’t handle the Internet. Because, of COURSE multiple chainsaw-rape comments aren’t a big deal! They’re just words! Sticks and stones! …
To you, my friends, I say: Fuck that noise. All of this matters. A hostile work environment matters. Being afraid of your own in-box matters. Deleting your blog because that’s the only way for you to have a normal, non-hate-filled life matters. “Accepting” that continual, virulent, hateful misogynist abuse is a pre-condition for being a lady who talks about thing, or for challenging sexism in any way, no matter who you are: That matters. And if you think we’re fragile, well. LET US COUNT THE WAYS we have hacked it, under conditions your pampered manly self just cannot imagine. LET US DEMONSTRATE FOR YOU the shit we wade through, every day, in order to talk about whether or not we liked that one “Community” episode or Lady GaGa album.
Naturally, critics of the whole hashtag campaign have done their best to minimize and dismiss this sort of routine harassment in exactly the ways that Doyle predicted they would.
The charming Ferdinand Bardamu of In Mala Fide responded to #mencallmethings with a bunch of obnoxious comments that conveniently proved basically every point Sady Doyle was trying to make with the hashtag in the first place. He started off with this bit of rapier wit:
He followed this up with a clumsy fat joke:
He continued on in this vein for awhile, so proud of his insightful critiques that he made a blog post about it.
Encouraged by Bardamu’s example, blogger PMAFT (Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Technology) announced a #MenCallMeThings Trolling Contest. The highlight of his own contributions to this contest:
Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, c0mputar offered slightly more coherent, if equally misguided, response.
The reality is that most of the “misogyny” they face is just criticism to their feminist viewpoints. I see this a lot when I confront feminists arguments, present my arguments, and get called a misogynist, amongst other things characterized by misandry. It happens on both sides …
Really now? Here are some actual examples of comments posted on #mencallmethings (taken from a comment from Shaenon in the discussion here).
here’s some to start: ‘I’ll rape your mum, faggot fuck’ “I’ll come to your house and kill you”
#mencallmethings, impersonate me on FB, & make disgusting sexual comments, post my name & # when I helped organize Slutwalk
cunt, whore, ugly, disgusting, cold, feminazi, shut the fuck up bitch, manipulative, crazy, playing the victim, sociopath
Bitch, whore, being sensitive, little girl, dumb, subject of jokes involving physical and sexual assault.
Any variation on fat and/or ugly at this point just makes me yawn.
I’ve had so many emails and messages telling me I deserve a beating, I don’t even keep track any longer.
“13? Judging by the size of your titties, I’d of thought you were 18.”
(censored version) If you keep talking the way you do, you deserved to get raped.
My #mencallmethings moment – receiving an email consisting of 1600 lines plus of the same insult over and over. My crime? Being fat.
I’ve had so many guys tell me how good I must be in bed because I’m fat and therefor will do anyone
I usually get ‘sweetheart’ just before they dismiss my argument as being ‘stupid’. No counter argument.
Will not repeat the violence that’s been directed at me but this one made me laugh “Blubbering self-important herd animal.”
apparently I’m a lesbian… I was unaware until #mencallmethings.
I’M ON ANTI-DEPRESSANTS AND I CANT EVEN JERK OFF CORRECTLY NOW & ITS BECAUSE OF WOMEN SO FUCK ALL YOU INFERIOR COWS
“You should have your tongue ripped out.”
I get sent one rape threat a month on average.
I was once told “get back in the kitchen you ugly bitch” for posting on a Linux board (can’t remember which one now)
Have you ever wanted someone to tell you that your genetalia should be stapled shut with bugs inside, start a blog
How about being choked to death during a forced blowjob? Start a feminist blog.
Not worth the effort to murder: the most recent example of what I had to delete off the blog when #mencallmethings
C0mputar, in his Reddit post, went on to offer another argument that seems to be a favorite of those trying to trivialize the abuse catalogued by the contributors to #mencallmethings:
In the end, veterans of the internet know there is no protected demographic. Everyone gets shit on, but if you make a point of belonging with a group, you get shit on even more, and more so the smaller you are. You know who gets shit on more than feminists? MRAs.
Really? Some MRA types on Twitter tried to get a rival hashtag going: #womencallmethings. Needless to say, they didn’t have much to work with.
One Man Boobz non-fan — whom I banned for his repeated comments about anal rape — tried to post a sarcastic little comment here last night dismissing #mencallmethings on similar grounds. Here’s a screenshot from my wordpress account, with his identifying data erased:
Let’s just, for contrast, take a look at the previous comment he tried to post here:
Another day, another “hope you get raped” comment.
Ironically, though I’m pretty thoroughly disliked across the manosphere, I actually get a lot less of this sort of abuse than most reasonably well-known feminist bloggers who happen to be non-dudes. Oh, sure, I get called a “traitor” and a “mangina,” and once in a while someone points out that I’m, you know, fat, but when it comes to the really nasty shit, the abusive commenters and emailers seem to much prefer going after women. This may be because they are misogynistic assholes. That’s just a theory, though.
I would put a vote to change the name to something other than “Ash-gnostic.” It reminds me of Ash from pokemon, and the thought of him getting horny from trolling and getting on his knees for Brandon is an image that I would like to bury into the deepest parts of my sub-conscious.
Ok, this may be a bit long, but it’s far too good to pass up (from that same blog post). Try and guess what this line of dialogue comes from!
Give up? Too obvious! It’s the subtext behind every single woman’s actions when she finally finds a man worthy enough to date. If women really were like this at all, I’d be going my own way too. Good thing this isn’t reality.
I’ll admit, I’m always accusing men who hit on me of being douche-bags, pushy losers, dumb-asses, retards and womanizers. Or, you know… I politely express my disinterest. Which is totally the same?
Although I have used the word “pushy” to describe men who refuse to accept my expression of disinterest. It’s hard being a straight dude! Ask a lady to dance, she declines, say “come on” 7 times and then she’s mad or something??
Not that that is how most straight dudes act, of course. Just the occasional one who decides his experience is universal.
Shaenon: You’re right, Brandon’s blog post is hilarious! It’s in 1 million point font and in the comments he invokes the old “There’s no evidence it’s NOT true!” line.
The new links are almost as good. Admittedly, I only clicked the first one and didn’t read the whole thing because it’s fucking long (vulgarity!), but I did get the following:
1. There is a war of the sexes going on, it’s women’s fault, and anyone who says otherwise is lying. WHY ARE YOU LYING?
2. The author notices that women in their thirties seem a lot more mature and less drama-inclined than women in their twenties. Therefore, younger women are deliberately acting that way to bug men. They aren’t actually, you know, maturing as they get older, because that would mean that women learn and change like people.
3. An example of the horrible treatment the author received from women: one time a date made him hang out with her friend who was FAT.
4. Illustrations!
5. Women in 1940 were nice to men all the time, and then they stopped for no reason. Why 1940 specifically? I have no idea.
Awesome.
Those illustrations, man… Those illustrations. It’s almost as vacuous as the other posts (admittedly) facetious math, or that one woman’s charts on the economics of the sexual value marketplace.
Dear men who are interested in women everywhere: just because a woman says no, does not mean she thinks horrible things about you and is laughing behind your back. Perfectly nice people who would definitely appeal to other perfectly nice people get rejected every day for a million reasons. Calm down. The person you are talking to has almost certainly faced rejection at some point as well.
@Viscaria:
But but but… Everyone knows that women never ask men out, so women never get rejected ever! And their desire for companionship in the form of a date always is outweighed by their desire for a mind-reading greek god!
It’s just simple logic!
1. This argument has numbers!
2. I can put things in that look like premises!
3. Women suck!!! (???)
Oh wow I just bothered to click that first link too, and there’s a reference to a gaggle of cats right up close to the beginning! Can we steal Pharyngula’s misogyny Bingo card and modify it to include “you’ll all be alone with your cats!” and “women were better when they were fluffy!” We could also have a space for equating day-to-day life as a free member of society to slavery!
I’m going to be really embarrassed if that link doesn’t work.
I’ve sent like four emails to Schwyze (all at once) and I posted twice on The Pervocracy message board, (with no intent to spam or harass, they were legitimate posts). Aside from that, and Manboobz of course, and the Good Men Project a few times, and Ozymandias’ site a few times, I haven’t ever posted on a feminist site. So, I’m not the best person to ask.
Sooo… aside from all the people you’ve harassed, you’ve never harassed anyone.
Okay, so what are you trying to get out of your posts here? When you call women “gashes” and “Her Holy Highnesses” and rant about alpha FUCK women, what reaction are you hoping for? Do you want to scare people? Anger them? Convince them that you’re right? Make them shut up? Do you not care what kind of response you get, as long as you get a reaction? Or do you not see us as people, more like video game characters you can destroy by typing the word “bitch” a lot? I’m really trying to figure this out.
kirbywarp:
The other fundamental problem is the attitude that relationships come with a price tag, which reminds me of a hilarious lawsuit that someone instituted after his girlfriend of four years or so broke up with him – clearly because she belatedly realized that he was a complete douchenozzle, as he went on to demonstrate to the world at large.
It turned out that this guy had been keeping a spreadsheet, backed up with a box full of receipts, of every single penny that he’d ever spent on her – and he sued her to try to get it all back.
Still, there’s a happy ending – the judge threw the case out and the guy became a national laughing stock. In fact, I’d love to know if he managed to get a date, let alone a girlfriend, ever again. (Sadly, I can’t remember his name, otherwise I’d link).
@Wetherby: Everything comes with a price. Relationships take work and effort…that is the price you pay to be in one. If the price is too high, we stay single.
Meeting women requires work since women typically don’t approach men that often. So we have to be the ones that initiate everything: meeting, touching, flirting, kissing, etc… It is a very rare woman that initiates any of those with men.
Men have to take an active role in dating. Women mostly just have to wait for someone to approach them to initiate. The only women that I can think of that would have to take an active role would be unattractive, morbidly obese, elderly and/or women with a physical disability.
The article by aleknovy wasn’t just about dating…it was about most human decision making. If something takes more effort than the actual or perceived reward, then most people wont do it. It applies to other aspects of life beyond dating: school, friends, hobbies, exercising, etc…
So masturbation, real dolls, porn and escorts can pretty much fulfill men’s sex needs while emotional support can be provided by his circle of friends instead of a girlfriend. So in the end, men get most of this emotional/sexual needs filled, with very little work compared to meeting, dating and maintaining an intimate relationship with a woman.
Things I Have Learned From Brandon: I am unattractive, morbidly obese, elderly and/or physically disabled.
(I mean, not that there’s anything wrong with any of that.
MRAL: Cheradenine had to spamfilter you for abuse once… although you were overall a decent contributor and I will vouch for you.
@Oxy: And how would I be able to say any of that, with no photo?
You know, this doesn’t even remotely reflect my life in the real world? Men aren’t lining up at my door, and I’m not rejecting them all with glee for the slightest flaw. It’s not because I’m ugly either; twenty years old, thin and pretty and I’m still an active participant in my own love life.
Newsflash brandyn; this is 2011. Women aren’t waiting like wilting wallflowers for men to notice them anymore. We’re not required to take the passive roll in our lives, and so many of us don’t. Some do, sure, but I find that to be a ridiculous waste of time.
Newsflash number 2: Dating is hard for everyone. Seriously, everyone. So yea, some people decide it’s not worth the effort, and some people stick with it. Some people find that(those) special someone(s), and some people don’t, and all this is actually very gender neutral.
But if it were more socially acceptable for women to approach and take a more active role, wouldn’t that make things easier?
@Shora:
1) Yes, it isn’t the 1950’s and women behave differently to a certain extent. Also it isn’t “some do” but “some don’t”. Especially for really attractive women, since they get approached far more often than a morbidly obese women.
2) Dating really isn’t difficult, it is just tedious and time consuming. Meet woman, see if you attracted to them, see if she feels the same way…and off to the races.
The problem is that it can be dull and boring since you are going through the same steps over and over and over again just with different women.
@Pyena: And why does something have to be socially acceptable for you to do it? If you want to approach, then approach and to hell with what “society” thinks.
Brandon: The I is a link to a photo of me with the face whited out. I would enjoy adding your “ugly bitch” to my collection of insults. 🙂
I dunno, in my attempts to pick up women, each woman has been different and unique and interesting, and even if I fail I get a new friend, which is nice.
God, you are dull, Brandon.
So then don’t date. I never found dating boring and/or tedious but if I had -or ever do- I just won’t do it. And I’ll avoid devoting entire blogs or tedious posts that talk about why I’m not dating.
Is it remotely possible that dating seems “tedious and time consuming” when a person views it as purely transactional? Perhaps a person who finds themselves having difficulty dating could divest themselves of the static and constraining consumer model -and the entire “meets my needs ethos- and live their lives in such a fashion that they meet people who add to their lives. As opposed to just “meeting their needs”.
Anyone who goes through the exact same steps, over and over again, in an attempt to date is: 1) not being especially selective, 2) almost inevitably boring themselves and 3) should take a break and reassess what it is they really want out of sexual and/or potentially romantic human interaction.
Destiny. Alize.
Oh, are we back at the “women can always get laid?” thing. Yawn. It’s crap you hear from guys who:
1. Don’t notice women’s existence except when they’re approaching them for sex or dates (or thinking about it). We’re around the rest of the time, you know. And there’s a whole lot of women who fall in between “morbidly obese or elderly” and “hot chick who’s got guys all over her all the time.” (Unless you think a woman becomes morbidly obese at 140 pounds or elderly at 35, in which case, well. They still exist too.)
2. Don’t understand the difference between harassment/objectification and genuine offers. If I turned around and said “why thank you, I’m so flattered you noticed bitch got an ass on her, what are you doing Friday,” (which I’m not going to do anyway because Christ almighty do I have to explain this) I really doubt I’d actually get a date out of it.
3. Don’t understand that we’re looking for someone we like and want to spend time with, and sitting around waiting for an offer is only likely to fill the “someone” part of that desire. On the rare occasions that you get approached by someone sincere and non-threatening, it’s still extremely low odds you’ll be actually compatible.
Speaking of dudes boycotting the planet for video games, I’m just gonna leave this here: http://consumerist.com/2011/11/police-say-man-threatened-to-bomb-best-buy-because-it-didnt-have-game.html
Hope this answers your question Ami =)
Absolutely. If the same things keep happening to you, the chances are that it’s a problem of yours that needs addressing. Just as the fact that no woman has apparently ever asked Brandon for a date but several women have made the first move with me is also highly revealing. Especially since one of them was one of those “hot chicks with guys all over her all the time” – or at least they would be if she’d been inclined to let them anywhere near her.
So how did I succeed when so many others failed? Because I got to know her over the phone first of all, thanks to her being the PA of a regular client who was often out of the office. So by the time we finally met we’d already got to know each other pretty well – she was usually pretty bored, so we’d have long chats, during which we established several common interests and a shared sense of humor (perhaps the single most important ingredient in a truly successful relationship). And when we finally met, I wouldn’t have dreamed of making the first move, because she was married – it was up to her to let me know that it was in name only and they’d been separated for ages. We ended up living together for nearly two years until her divorce came through and she moved back to the States.
And this was in the early 1990s, since when it’s become infinitely easier to establish a rapport with someone before meeting them. Including my wife – by the time I met her face to face, we’d emailed for a week and phoned for a week, so we already had a pretty good idea that we’d like each other and that our first face-to-face date would probably go well.
Of course, the downside of this approach is that it requires people to develop a verbal rapport beforehand, which almost inevitably requires you to show genuine interest in the other person – especially since you have no idea what they look like. That, I fear, is where some people might fall down badly.
@Holly, friends of mine used to pull out the “it’s so easy being a girl, you could always go home with a guy if you wanted and there’s no guarantee that I could go home with a girl” thing a lot, especially back when I thought I was straight. What it seemed to me that they were doing was defining “guys” as every man in the place, and “girls” as the women they personally found attractive enough to have sex with. So maybe that larger girl with the crazy hair in the corner would love to go home and have a wild time, but she doesn’t count. However, the guy who came up to me and grabbed my ass without permission absolutely does.
Because it can’t be said enough…