So yesterday I quoted some random Spearheader who described women (well, white women in particular) as “complete parasitical whores roaming the landscape spreading VD like Johnny Appleseed and fucking men over.”
One reader wondered if Mr. Appleseed really went about spreading VD. So I did a little research, and it turns out that it is exceedingly unlikely that Mr. Appleseed – who actually was a real person — spread anything other than the magic of apples. And his Swedenborgian beliefs.
Why? Because Mr. Appleseed – real name John Chapman – was what these days we might call a Man Going His Own Way. Seems he didn’t have much truck with the ladies, according to one contemporary account quoted in his Wikipedia entry:
On one occasion Miss PRICE’s mother asked Johnny if he would not be a happier man, if he were settled in a home of his own, and had a family to love him. He opened his eyes very wide–they were remarkably keen, penetrating grey eyes, almost black–and replied that all women were not what they professed to be; that some of them were deceivers; and a man might not marry the amiable woman that he thought he was getting, after all.
So what led poor Mr. Appleseed to these dire thoughts about women? Apparently the underage girl he hoped to some day get with was more into dudes who weren’t him:
Now we had always heard that Johnny had loved once upon a time, and that his lady love had proven false to him. Then he said one time he saw a poor, friendless little girl, who had no one to care for her, and sent her to school, and meant to bring her up to suit himself, and when she was old enough he intended to marry her. He clothed her and watched over her; but when she was fifteen years old, he called to see her once unexpectedly, and found her sitting beside a young man, with her hand in his, listening to his silly twaddle.
That ungrateful little strumpet!
I peeped over at Johnny while he was telling this, and, young as I was, I saw his eyes grow dark as violets, and the pupils enlarge, and his voice rise up in denunciation, while his nostrils dilated and his thin lips worked with emotion. How angry he grew! He thought the girl was basely ungrateful. After that time she was no protegé of his.
But Appleseed, despite giving up on women in the real world, held out hope for the afterlife – explaining to others that he expected to have two spirit wives all his own after he died. Which I guess is the 19th century equivalent of the MGTOWers today who fantasize about the sexy robot ladies who will eventually, it is hoped, make actual human females – with their troubling “thoughts” and “needs” and “desires” of their own – obsolete.
Mr. Appleseed’s quest to remain alone was probably also helped by the fact that – if the illustration I found on Wikipedia is any indication – he looked a bit like Dale Gribble from King of the Hill. Only much, much sloppier, with long hair. Oh, and instead of wearing a baseball cap, he wore “a tin utensil which answered both as a cap and a mush pot.”
So, yeah, a creepy weirdo who hates women — definitely an MGTOWer all the way.
Oh, except that he actually did something with his life — you know, helping spread apple trees to a big portion of the midwest — instead of spending all his time going on about how all women are whores.
Definite second to River and Amy – they are both really great characters. Alex Kingston deserves SO MUCH credit for being handed this character that no one really knew anything about and just running with her – if she doesn’t get a few big time awards for playing River this season, I will be sorely dissapoint.
Make that a third for River and Amy. Lots of love for Alex Kingston here.
Alyson Hannigan’s character in American Pie. She knew what she wanted, and she did what she needed to get it, and she didn’t have to be cruel (in fact she was careful not to be cruel) to do it.
Despite the possessive implied by the title Gregory’s Girl, it’s actually the women who run rings round the gangly, painfully gauche Gregory – but in a genuinely nice way.
Even the Machiavellian manipulation towards the end when Dorothy (whom he fancies) deliberately fails to turn up for a date so that Susan (who fancies him) can step into the breach has an entirely benign outcome – he gets a girlfriend who was probably far more suitable for him than the one he was dreaming about.
Ami Angelwings-November 8, 2011@ 3:10am
“Hey, David Meller, can you do me a favor and recite the alphabet for us? I want to test a theory. ”
Reciting the alphabet wouldn’t do you any good, sweetums! Your little feminine brain wouldn’t understand it anyhow!
How about you counting to ten on your fingers? You may even seek help from other feminists on manboobz. C’mon, grrrlz, in the spirit of sisterhood…
Sorry, AA, I didn’t realize that exceeded your numeracy and math skills!
Do what you do best AA–bouncing around, giggling, and smiling!
Zhinxi—November 8,2011@ 4:10pm
I do indeed keep in touch with the libertarian movement, both now and over the past four decades or so. I am familiar with all the names on your list, except for Radley Balko and Kevin Carson, and I would have my problems including Nick Gillespie (and Reason magazine) on a list of libertarians, but I not only am familiar with the people cited, but greatly enjoy reading what they have to say!
I am also familiar with, and a keen admirer of, for starters, Justin Raimondo, Robert Anton Wilson, Doug Casey, the late Harry Browne and Samuel E. Konkin III–Okay, so he was a little over-the -top against the LP, but his ideas regarding the ‘countereconomy’ were quite prescient, and are now doubt going to acquire worldwide relevance as the debt driven, and debt pyramided paper economy we have now bankrupts itself. I also like Carl Watner and his modern ‘voluntaryists’–while disagreeing with their opposition to voting or holding political office, I understand why he and his people think the way they do–Hans-Hermann Hoppe (VERY perceptive, especially in the areas where State intervention and regulation sets trends in motion that inevitably lead to runaway egalitarianism (including feminism) and why a conservative State is, in many cultural,,educational, and family/gender/ sexual matters a contradiction in terms. Walter Block, Lew Rockwell, not to mention both Paul Gottfried and Samuel T. Francis (not, strictly speaking, libertarians, but each offering observations and opinions that greatly strengthen Anarchist arguments against the state, from a more-or-less “conservative” perspective. There are also what may be called ‘literary libertarians” rather than political ones, such as, e.g. Stephen Cox of Liberty magazine, Jeff Riggenbach (kind of a modern day Paul Goodman, a bit on the “counterculture side, but sometimes brilliant nevertheless), along with maverick historians like James J. Martin, Michael Hoffman II–They were White and They were Slaves”–Bill Kauffman, Michael Coughlin, who brought out Rudolf Rocker’s classic ‘Nationalism and Culture’, a perfect “left-anarchist complement to Rothbard’s For a New Liberty; and of course the thought-provoking Ivan Illich, espcially his two masterpieces Deschooling Society and Medical Nemesis.,
Thomas Szasz MD and Peter Breggin MD (don’t let the MDs fool you, they are BOTH masterful critics of the tyranny of psychiatry generally, and of medicine and medicalized psychotherapty in particular) and no list of libertarians is complete, in my opinion, without them.
This list is getting a little long and unwieldy, so I hope that I answered your question about my familiarity with libertarians and its major figures. As far as this goes, I have a question for you that may be right up this blog’s alley:
Why the INCREDIBLE scarcity of women? The only ones who would make this list are Wendy McElroy (whom you mentioned) Rose Wilder Lane, Ayn Rand, (maybe Emma Goldman), Suzanne LaFollette, Voltarine DeClayre, Isabel Patterson, Sharon Presley, Joan Kennedy Taylor and Zora Neale Thurston. Pretty slim pickings for a century or so, isn’t it? Maybe women are inborn collectivists and statists?
If you’re aware of Wendy McElroy and Joan Kennedy Taylor, why did you claim that “a specifically libertarian feminism” is something you’d never seen, and which would make you think twice, because if you were aware of them and had been following them, you would know about their libertarian feminist projects. I’m confused. You also seemed surprised to find that Roderick Long was now a commited feminist.
Do you know about Carol Moore?
http://carolmoore.net/articles/woman-v-nationstate.html
See also the response from Ms. Magazine editor Robin Morgan.
You mentioned Joan Kennedy Taylor, and yet you’re not at all aware of the ALF?
Sharon Presley?
Really, Meller, are you SURE you’re not just googling up names so I don’t call you an old fogey?
Are you SURE?
Because there’s nothing wrong with being out of touch, not at all. It’s just that you seem to like to speak from a position of long libertarian expertise, yet all your arguments seem to me to be ones that smack of the libertarian culture in the eighties, when they’re mainstream, or the libertarian culture of “traditionalist” “white pride” “constitutionalist set”
So, SERIOUSLY, and I am very very confused – Why ask about there being libertarian feminism, if you’re already in touch and aware? Whay say that it would be something you’d really like to see! If you must have known at least about the (well intentioned, and I greatly admire wendy, but I think wrongheaded in many ways) Ifeminist project? I’m genuinely confused. You say so many things that don’t line up with questions you’ve asked me, or statements you’ve made in the past.
And you wouldn’t put Doctor Mary Ruwart on the list? REALLY?
Reason is not my favorite libertarian magazine – Go The Freeman! YEY THE FREEMAN FOREVE3R! But it IS a libertarian magazine, I don’t like Gillespie, or several of the names I mentioned, but like I said, a spectrum. And Radley Balko is the greatest libertarian opponent of police brutality we have. Please, read him. Seriously.
Anyway… Certainly I’d rather read anything in Reason than claim a place like American Renaissance is a SERIOUS! TOTALLY NOT RACIST! place.
So perhaps you have been staying in touch. But… You seemed unaware of libertarianism’s current issues as regards the “leftward shift”. It honestly seems as though I’m the first left-libertarian you have ever encountered.
You didn’t seem aware of the ALL or the Center for a Stateless Society. The newest book you’ve recommended was printed in 1997 – and yes, while I’m a big fan of CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND – and it’s largely “correct” – It’s still more a great, cracking example of GREAT AMERICAN CRACKPOTTERY than a book I’d recommend to non federal – reserve – foes. As already a fed foe with a Robert Anton Wilson style lefty conspiracist streak of her own, I thought it was fun, and insane. But I wouldn’t drag it into any sort of argument.
So.. anyway, on to what I knew you were going to come out and say any minute now –
Women being inborn collectivists is one of the many things certain of the guys throw around when “where are all the CHICKS?” comes up, and I knew you’d get to it. I’m surprised you didn’t also throw in “AND WHERE’S ALL THE NON-WHITES! HUH!” – you didn’t seem one of the sorts too polite to say what they’re thinking on that front.
They sometimes note that There’s plenty of lefty anarchist ladies, and DOWN WITH THE GOV Tea Party Ladies, of course. But since they aren’t explicitly libertarian, they just must be too naturally takey to join US!
(Also, need I mention that you seem to want to encourage just the dependent attitude in women that many “women are statists” critics use to say that women will naturally use gov. to replace their rightful Male Providers? )
So anyway, I’ll discuss “Hey, dude, where’s all the chicks!!! Guess women just are too silly and love the Gov!” more in depth later, but please read the classic discussion on the subject by Joan Kennedy Taylor, who you claim to be all familiar with. She says a lot of simple, basic groundwork on the subject, better than I could.
Why Aren’t More Women Part of the Libertarian Movement, by Joan Kennedy Taylor,
http://www.alf.org/morewomen.php
Ami: “Hey, David Meller, can you do me a favor and recite the alphabet for us? I want to test a theory.
You were right, if you asked, he’d refuse.
Not even smart enough to just ignore you.
pecunium – And he got ANGRY at her! XD
Plus I’m still “person lists some big names that represent a spectrum of current x-type politics as NOT found on stormfront – No endorsement other than “They sure don’t fucking post on stormfront” implied – As a challenge to “LIST AS MANY NAMES AS I CAN! THAT MEANS I WIN!”
Also “This list that I MADE MYSELF has only X women in it! HAH! Explain THAT, woman!” 😉
I was running out of time, quite frankly. I read Dr. Ruwart’s book, Healing our World, when it came out back in, I believe, around 1990, and warmly recommended it to other people at the time. I also spoke kindly of her winning the 2008 LP nomination for President, although when Bob Barr clinched the nomination, I was happy to vote for, and campaign for him over Obama and McCain–his serious shortcomings notwithstanding.
Joan Kennedy Taylor is indeed a libertarian feminist, but I haven’t forgotten that she endorsed the passage of the exceedingly collectivist ERA back in the ’70s. She may have had her reasons for doing so, but given what feminism was turning into even in those years, advancing libertarianism couldn’t be one of them. Nevertheless, when I have the chance, I may give her latest book a look-see.
There are few areas where the Federal (and State) governments have been more collectivist and totalitarian in their attitudes toward the (white) citizenry then what should be the altogether private area of race relations!
From housing to its ‘publik skoolz’. from employment policy to media advertising and guidelines courtesy FCC and Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the race relations mandated by government are to be enforced blindly on the basis of ‘equality” (for whites), along with its mandated and subsidized hostility and resentment (for nonwhites) agaisnt us, has been official policy since the end of WWII. Divide and Rule? Perhaps, but we have to get out from under this if we are to have a country left!
American Renaissance, Rence, V-Dare (to some degree), American Nationalist Union, Stormfront, and other White activist and separatist websites are at least attempting to do what nobody else is doing; getting government out of race relations business! Some are doing it badly, some doing this rather well, given the paucity of resources and extreme antiwhite public policy and media bias in America and around the world, but it MUST BE DONE!
Whom you associate with, or refuse to associate with, is your own damn business. I think that it is a pity that other libertarians (including the Ron Paul campaign) can’t engage more actively in restoring our natural rights of freedom of association, as those much maligned” white supremacists” do, but somebody has to do it, and as long as they are doing it, their work is as valuable as any libertarian resistance to illegitimate and despotic government power!
Let me say that I have roughly the same degree of discomfort promoting feminism (even a libertarian (?) feminism) as I think that you would have promoting White civil rights in an increasingly egalitarian and oppressive America for EVERYBODY. The fact that feminists (including libertarian feminists?) seem to be closely associated with the enforced egalitarian tyranny and its legal/educational/media enforcement apparatus complicates this issue considerably!
Recently Professor Walter Block, certainly a ‘mainstream’ libertarian, wrote a book on this exact topic, titled, i believe, Discrimination, that I will also read, and if it is useful, I shall then warmly recommend, both to other libertarians and to white activists. Professor Hoppe also has done some writing in the area of State enforced egalitarianism run amok as well! As long as those laws and Judicial rulings remain on the statute books, no person of any race in this country can be called free, and certiainly no White person.
At any rate, I was not trying to ‘impress you” with my familiarity with current libertarianism. I was trying to show that I AM interested in the struggle for liberty from many different perspecives, some of which dovetail with yours, and some not.For what it is worth, I seem to recall being the first to mention Roderick Long on manboobz. As far as it goes, so far I haven’t even mentioned the primier site for liberty on the internet (Google’s figures, not mine) to wit: Lew Rockwell.com. Reviewing the state of libertarian scholarship, journalism, or politics without reference to LewRockwell.com is like eating a meal without plates, utensils, or table! Something’s missing!
Once again, I am a libertarian, I have been one for a long time, and I am certainly not averse to seeing other libertarians here, or anywhere! I don’t think that we arrived at our respective libertarian positions by anywhere like the same route,however.
I hope you don’t mind me asking however, how come a libertarian–an anarchist, no less–found herself in the company of such blatant statism and collectivism as is the mainstream and contemporary feminism, such as we see every day on this site?
Plus I’m still “person …
Plus I’m still laughing at, I meant. D’oh.
And shouldn’t all of those women been staying home being fluffy? Should we stay at home and be fluffy or involve ourselves in libertarian politics, meller?
As far as Carol Moore goes, I recall meeting her at laissez-faire books when they were located in the villiage in NY city. I also contributed–modestly–to her campaigns for Governor and to repeal the Massachussets Income tax, and also wish her (and her organization, if it still exists) “small government is beautiful” best wishes! I don’t want to neglect anybody, but Zhinxi, I just don’t have the time (or probably the room) to mention everyone, When I mention one, I necessarily neglect others, and naturally, i will refer most to those people and organizatoins with whom I am most familiar.
As far as encouraging a dependent attitude toward government, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t that one of the original objections to mainstream feminism by the ALF and Pressley, Taylor, McElroy et al, back in the ’70s? Where would I get that idea from, I wonder?
zhinxy: Did you notice that Meller said, Once again, I am a libertarian, I have been one for a long time, , in the same general space where he says women should have no rights (save to married off at her owner’s pleasure/profit), and saying that people’s interpersonal choices (whom to marry, sleep with, how to configure their lives).
This, he thinks is libertarian (mind you I’ve known lots of people who call themselves libertarian who share similar views…. economics need to be l’aissez faire, but conservative/present day laws about marriage, sodomy, etc. are just fine. Sasha Volokh, for one, and I have had some significantly divergent, and moderately warm, conversations about these things).
Involve yourselves in libertarian politics, if it IS libertarian politics! Thus far, call me paranoid, Zhinxi, but I feel that I am trying to ‘dialogue” with you, as a fellow libertarian, but with your feminist sympathies (which I don’t favor much anyhow) getting in my way; I am still communicating as respectfully as I can, and recieving a kick in the teeth!
I mean, don’t I get any goddam points even for REFRAINING to mention my standard objection to women outside the home in any of these posts about liberty and women?
I said, even in my posts citing Ayn Rand, that I do NOT regard her as feminine in any way, she has NO attraction to me as a woman, and i retain my revulsion for rand-women whatever their politics or professions! I nevertheless said that I have the greatest admiration of her genius; her fabulous abilities as a writer, and perhaps even her very powerful first rate mind at work as a libertarian-type of philosopher. Do I think that she should have confined to kinder, kirche, kuche? Probably not! Does this exception say anything about your average female fluffybrain? Also, probably not! I think that exception deserves a few points in my favor as well!
I’ll even include outstanding female scientists, writers, and entertainers as well…
Pecunium-
I was KIDDING!, for crying out loud!!
Pecunium – Well at LEAST he wasn’t mentioning the suggestion he put forth that women may be bred or genetically altered to be more pleasing in the future.. And oh yes, “Liberty outside the home, tyranny within” libertarians are so much fun.
Okay, in the two minutes I have –
Meller –
“! I don’t want to neglect anybody, but Zhinxi, I just don’t have the time (or probably the room) to mention everyone, When I mention one, I necessarily neglect others, and naturally, i will refer most to those people and organizatoins with whom I am most familiar.”
Okee dokee, so when you said THIS –
“Why the INCREDIBLE scarcity of women? The only ones who would make this list are Wendy McElroy (whom you mentioned) Rose Wilder Lane, Ayn Rand, (maybe Emma Goldman), Suzanne LaFollette, Voltarine DeClayre, Isabel Patterson, Sharon Presley, Joan Kennedy Taylor and Zora Neale Thurston. Pretty slim pickings for a century or so, isn’t it? Maybe women are inborn collectivists and statists?”
You meant to add, “of course I can’t list everybody! Lots of great ladies in our movement! So many wonderful women!” Of course you did.
I’ll come back and discuss you’re… errr… brave defense of white civil rights and…. other… um… stuff. And why you think I or even a much-more-right-leaning libertarian woman should want to be buddies with you on this ground? And your question about my horrific association with FEMINISM… (I work with people in the Tea Party too, again, I have a lot of libertarian and paleocon friends, allies, and strange bedfellows to my right, all of whom are better people than you).
I’ll explain my PERSONAL POLITICAL JOURNEY a little more later.
Also, ONCE AGAIN ffs, this isn’t about naming as many names as you could. I didn’t say “do you read reason, lew rockwell, the freeman, mises.org, Antiwar.com, etc etc” I f’n know Lew Rockwell is the most popular mostly-right-but-some-left libertarian / paleocon site on the net. And?
Meller, what sort of silly game are you playing?
Involve yourselves in libertarian politics, if it IS libertarian politics!
I do. Thanks,. I have a great time doing it, too.
I was KIDDING!, for crying out loud!!
– You so silly!
What… you don’t think women should be prohibited from doing things? You don’t think society should keep them from being educated? You don’t think they need to be kept ignorant of feminism? Made to stay and home (Kinder, Kükuche und Kirche)?
The bit about coverture being a good idea, just so much flim-flam?
Funny… you keep saying things like that (and the bits about wanting women to suffer, or be replaced with sexbots if they don’t start making themselves slaves). Not just the one time, but again, and again, and again.
So me, goofy simpleton that I am, I take you at your word.
Reciting the alphabet wouldn’t do you any good, sweetums! Your little feminine brain wouldn’t understand it anyhow!
You should tell that to NWO xD
Neways, try me 😀
Female fluffybrains? Were you “kidding” again, Meller? You’re a hateful toad.
Wait…. DKM… so do you actually read nething nebody here says? xD Or do you just get a general idea of who they are from the STYLE they say it? 😀 I’m just curious how you perceive me! 😀 Market research and all xD
Let’s do some comparison questions! 😀
1) How old do you think I am? How old do you think Zhinxy is?
2) What’s my education level? What’s Zhinxy’s education level?
3) What do I do for fun on a Friday night? What does Zhinxy do for fun on a Friday night? 😀
4) What’s my favourite TV show? What’s Zhinxy’s favourite TV show? 😀
5) When me and Zhinxy hang out, how do you imagine our interactions to be like? 😀
I’m curious to see how good you actually are at parsing our personalities 😀
Oh and h_pothes_s can you fill in those 2 letters? 😀 Girly brain and all, we need your big bad libertarian brain to do the heavy lifting xD
Speaking of androgynous bad-asses, one of my absolute favorite female characters ever (not sure if she counts as a protagonist) has got to be Sir Integra Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing.
Indeed she is. I heart her much. Do you like the manga, the anime, or the OVA?
By the way DKM, I think it’s too late at this point to try to salvage yourself as the “defining Libertarian on Manboobz”… Zhinxy alrdy put an end to any hope of that xD You prolly WOULD HAVE BEEN in the 80s, but your Libertarian knowledge seems … 30 years out of date xD
I was KIDDING!, for crying out loud!!
Stop crying out loud. You’re a libertarian FFS. Have some dignity. xD