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Men’s Rights Redditor MrStinkybutt: Wrong about everything?

Question: Are some Men’s Rights Redditors simply incapable of being right about anything? Take this quote I ran across today from the eminent MrStinkybutt, who thinks he has the whole Herman Cain sexual harassment thing figured out.

I’m not sure what I like better, the loopy conspiracy theory or the idea that Ron Paul is a “serious candidate.”

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Sharculese
8 years ago

theoretically you could create a regulatory body for food with enough power to implement rules to decrease sugar contents in food and other such things that would reduce the incidence of diabetes. the fda just doesnt have that much power.

owlslave, the logical conclusion of your argument is that we should make the fda bigger.

Sharculese
8 years ago

as an addendum to dkm- the idea that constitutional fluency should be near the top of anyones list of presidential qualities is absurd. do you understand how little of the president’s job involves constitutional interpretation?

darksidecat
8 years ago

I read an interesting living constitution argument about property rights today…from the early 1800s. XD The more things change the more they stay the same…

Well if that’s the case, cancer, diabetes and pretty much every disease/ailment should be dropping drastically thanks to Big Daddy. Funny how the opposite is the case.

I would suggest that anyone who wants to think about this issue take a quick glance at international and historical life expectancies and healthcare systems. People actually have seen dramatic improvements in things like life expectancy and infant mortality rates since the advent of medicaid in the US. We have not seen quite the same gains as countries with better systems, but there have been quite a few games. There has also been progress in treating cancer and diabetes. People with severe diabetes often live long and full lives these days, that would have been unheard of 100 years ago. Sometimes, treatment is more expensive than allowing your citizens to quickly suffer and die, short term, but it wastes resources to raise new citizens and, you know, the whole human toll of horrible suffering and death.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Sharculese: I’d like a president who had some solid sense of what his limits really are.

I had higher hopes for Obama, but when he, in effect, ratified the indefinite detention policies, as well as Bush’s approval of torture, well I knew he’d be co-opted by either the principle of, “leeway”, or been scared by the more reactionary elements of the intelligence community (primarily the CIA/National Security apparatchicki.

But trying to reverse 225 years, (more or less) of caselaw, not gonna happen.

I’d like to see the dicta from Union Pacific v Cty. of Santa Clara removed from the odd standing it’s acquired as a controlling ruling, but not with this court; and not so long as Souter is what passes for an acceptable “liberal” to the senate.

darksidecat
8 years ago

*games should be gains

Sharculese
8 years ago

I’d like a president who had some solid sense of what his limits really are.

im pretty rigid about the separation between policy/ethics and constitutionality. i disagree pretty strongly with the course obama has taken and with the obama administrations interpretation of the presidents national security power (and to think i used to want harold koh on the supreme court) but not so strongly that i think his interpretation is unacceptable.

I’d like to see the dicta from Union Pacific v Cty. of Santa Clara removed from the odd standing it’s acquired as a controlling ruling,

a SCOTUS that didnt cite dicta as precedent would be awesome in the same way a SCOTUS that didnt quote the random house dictionary would be awesome, but i don’t believe in miracles

not so long as Souter is what passes for an acceptable “liberal” to the senate.

in all fairness souter passed the senate as a conservative and only afterwards revealed that he actually had a soul. sure he wasn’t stevens or brennan, but who is? he cried after bush v. gore, man. doesn’t that count for something?

Sharculese
8 years ago

@darksidecat

I read an interesting living constitution argument about property rights today…from the early 1800s.

i would like to know more.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Sharculese: My point, re Souter, is that any nominee who is as “liberal” as Souter is almost completely beyond the possibility of confirmation.

Sharculese
8 years ago

ohhhh. well ya, that makes sense.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

OWLslave does make a good point; back when little babies died of tainted milk and starvation (or starvation thanks to their diabetes) there were that many fewer people growing old enough to get cancer…

Magpie
Magpie
8 years ago

NWO needs to specify if he means incidence or prevalence of cancer etc.

zhinxy
8 years ago

Whenever Ron Paul starts up his roadshow and decides to mount a publicity campaign for president, every libertarian on earth suddenly hears how we need! NEED! to support him! At least it will get libertarianism some attention! Forget your beliefs on choice or immigration or constitutionalism or… You know, electoral politics themselves! You gotta get on board! COME ON! That desperate for any kind of attention, that’s us, I suppose. Sigh.

Meller – Stephan Molyneu makes a great case here for the failure Ron Paul would be as a libertarian president, and the damage he would do to our movement should he try to enact his policies, or should he fail to enact them.

zhinxy
8 years ago

OOOH! NWO! All your spitting at big daddy means you’re finally ready to have a nice libertarian chat with me about what you do, in fact, believe about the state, right? I’m waiting!

How food and drug safety would be provided for in a libertarian or other anarchist society is a very complex and important question. Personally, I believe that both profit and non-profit research and safety organizations, a mix of cooperative watchdog groups, local public safety boards, insurers, and organizations similar to the Underwriters Laboaratories for electrical devices could efficiently take the place of government regulation in a stateless society…

Which is different from “leave everything pretty much the way it is now and can the regulation, the poor businessmen need all the help they can get, NWO…”

Tell me I’m wrong! Tell me what you think we should do! Gimme a hint! Just a little HINT!

Pecunium
8 years ago

zhinxy: I’ve been following Paul since 1976. I’ve been looking at the practical aspects of libertarianism, and the impractical nature of it’s attempted implementations, since the mid-’80s.

I don’t think, honestly, Paul is libertarians real problem. The problem is that Paul isn’t really outside the mainstream of politically active libertarians.

zhinxy
8 years ago

Pecunium: “The problem is that Paul isn’t really outside the mainstream of politically active libertarians”. –

Depending on how you define “politically active,” I actually agree completely. :p

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

I think my favorite jackassery from Ron Paul is when he claimed we need to deal with pirates ‘like the founding fathers dealt with pirates’.

“A solution involving state power when it’s not abortion? Why, that’s unusual, Mr. Paul”, I thought to myself.

It turns out he meant Letters of Motherfucking Marque. I’m not clear whether those were ever actually issued by the USA (Perhaps he meant the British?), but I do know that when the US finally moved against the Barbary Coast pirates, they did so with the fucking military! And that this was actually the driver behind them surrendering! How in the name of truth and beauty does anyone derive “Letters of Marque” from this?

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

I don’t believe these letters were never issued by the USA. They came from the European kingdoms (England, France, Spain,…) The owner of the letter, the corsair, had a right to attack ships from specific nationality, under certain rules. In many they were way closer to soldiers than to Jack Sparrow or today’s pirates.
From what I know, the way the founding father dealt with pirates was by, literally, dealing with them. As in, buying their merchandise, to avoid taxes.

darksidecat
8 years ago

I think my favorite jackassery from Ron Paul is when he claimed we need to deal with pirates ‘like the founding fathers dealt with pirates’.

By making it an explicitly delegated power of congress under the constitution? Actually, that isn’t too terrible of an idea XD

Congress has the power “To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the High Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations” (article 1, section 8, clause 10)

Yep, pirates are explicitly mentioned in the US Constitution. You deal with pirates how the Congress tells you to! XD

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

I’m pretty sure that the 13 colonies’ establishment came primarily after the end of the age of piracy, and that you’re thinking of the colonial era smugglers.

Barbary coast pirates were wrecking trade ships for quite some time. The US didn’t really destroy them so much as beat them up until they stopped attacking US trade ships. If you remember that, um, I think it’s the army’s marching theme, it’s the reference to “…to the shores of Tripoli”. So the US really did deal wth some pirates, it’s just… not really the way Mr. Paul would appear to like. And really, letters of marque weren’t how *anyone* dealt with pirates, it was how they created them (privateers, anyway).

But then, the dude pushes the Gold Standard, he’s not really operating off of reality. Maybe he comes from Earth 662.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Rutee: It turns out he meant Letters of Motherfucking Marque. I’m not clear whether those were ever actually issued by the USA

They were, but rarely, and not later than 1815.

Kyrie: Letter of Marque and Reprisal, allowed a privateer (not the same as a corsair, but the differences are perhaps subtle. The period of the corsairs/realm of the corsairs was limited, pretty much to the Caribbean, and from about 1650-1750), to take, plunder, and burn, the ships of nationalities with which a nation was at war.

It was a commission, from a state, to perform specific acts, against non-neutral ships.

If they attacked a neutral ship they were possessed of a limited privilege, so long as they didn’t then plunder it. To take a neutral power’s ship was to become a pirate, as it completely voided the Letter of Marque (it’s arguably what happened to Captain Kidd. He had a valid Letter of Marque, but he took ships which were not neutrals. He argued, at his trial for piracy, that he had no way to know the ships weren’t the bottoms of belligerents , but he pretty plainly violated his commission; even if the total effect of his actions wasn’t contrary to British interests).

Also, losing the actual document… a fatal error. Unless one was taken back to port, and allowed time to get in touch with the issuing power, and they confirmed the letter of marque… you’d be hanged.

Corsairs were a sort of freebooter, who took advantage of the, at best, semi-lawless state of the Spanish Main, and the semi-constant enmity of the British and Spanish (and the vulnerability of Spanish ships and port towns). That the British weren’t above asking/letting them tag along on military ventures (and that some, like Morgan, were thoroughly rewarded) because there was no way to police them, puts them in a sort of perpetual limbo.

They were not acting legally, but the Spanish couldn’t bring them to heel, and so long as they left English ships/ports alone the British weren’t going to bother them.

It was when the Spanish lost any real power/influence that the British sent in squadrons to root them out, and widespread piracy in the Americas was wiped out.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Rutee: It’s the Marine Hymn (the Army has a version of, “The Caisson Song”).

It was a bit more than beating up their shipping.

Stephen Decatur invaded, captured the city of Tripoli, and burnt a lot of it to the ground.

But as you say, Letter of Marque and Reprisal weren’t for dealing with pirates (no one did that) but for harrassing the shipping of enemies, by making piracy legal.

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

no, I mean Barbary Pirates were hitting US shipping. Hitting the shipping of Pirates seems… difficult, to say the least! Did not realize it was the marines, but that makes sense.

But for all that burning, the pirates weren’t really ended by this. They just agreed to stop hitting US shipping, which is all the US needed.

David K. Meller
David K. Meller
8 years ago

I can’t avoid noticing that there is no discussion of at least two cold blooded premeditated murders, committed on Presidential order, of American citizens (solely because of their religion and nationality??) without any shred of due process, any shadow of trail by jury, or any indictment or charges! There is an awful lot of noise concerning the issue of Ron Paul’s electability, since obviously he IS electable, or the efforts to silence him and his message would not need to be so frantic on the part of the mainstream noisemedia (especially from the branches, and the personalities that are self-described most often as”conservative”!,

YOUR crystal balls are just as cracked as anyone in, or outside, the Ron Paul campaign. You have absolutely NO IDEA whether Ron Paul is “electable” or not, You have NO IDEA how successful or not his Presidency will be, and you have no ideas of any alternatives to both Ron Paul’s libertarian Republicanism or the clearly failing and decrepit status quo of Obama, Hillary, Pelosi, Romney, Cain, Bachmann, goofy, daffy, sneezy, dopey, and the other (political dwarfs)!

One primary reason for such ignorance regarding the nature and prospects of a Ron Paul Presidency is that peaceful (one hopes), democratic (one hopes) and complete (one hopes) establishment of liberty, private property, and self-responsibility has NEVER been done before, least of all not on a Continental scale and with 300,000,000+ people! Ron Paul–and the rest of us–are on altogether uncharted territory here!

Every other revolution in history resulted only in a change of ( usually far worse) masters!

We are at the point when the existing Democrat/Republican system has broken down, present institutions (banks, schools, regulatory bureaucracies, armed forces, healthcare delivery systems, newsmedia, etc. are the PROBLEMS, not the solutions, and Ron Paul, whether he is electable or not, is the only public figure who is willing–or perhaps even able–to discuss this, and offer worthwhile alternatives! We don’t–and can’t-know what Ron Paul’s Presidency will bring, but we may surmise on the historic basis of much smaller and more localized catastrophes of e/g. hyperinflation, civil wars, terrorism, famines, etc. what the terminal (and inevitable) breakdown of the existing order will produce!

Yes, I expressed the same outrage at violations of OUR Constitution when Bush II, Clinton, Bush I or even St. Ronnie was in power, and for the same reasons!

Happy now?

Kyrie
Kyrie
8 years ago

After a quick wikipedia search:

Corsairs […] were privateers, authorized to conduct raids on shipping of a nation at war with France, on behalf of the French Crown […] provided the commanding officer of the vessel was in possession of a valid Letter of Marque.

It seems this word has different meaning according to which country it applies.

I’m pretty sure that the 13 colonies’ establishment came primarily after the end of the age of piracy, and that you’re thinking of the colonial era smugglers.

Very possible, since I didn’t know the difference between the two.

darksidecat
8 years ago

Doesn’t matter, piracy rules are congressional business, as per the constitution XD

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
8 years ago

I’d like to discuss politics with zhinxy, seeing as ze appears to be one of the few sane libertarians I’ve met online in recent years, but I don’t want to derail.

Are you registered on the forums zhinxy?

Also, what gendered pronouns (if any ;)) would you like to be used in reference to you, and how would you self-identify your political philosophy?

(I identify as a “libertarian socialist” when going for the wider definitional range of what I believe in, “anarchocommunist of the Platformist tradition” if I need to get into specifics, and simply “anarchist” for the middle ground where I need to differentiate from, say, autonomist Marxists but don’t need to get into the fine grained stuff.)

Pecunium
8 years ago

Kyrie: Corsair (in english) has problematic issues. For example the, “corsairs” of the Barbary Coast, were more properly the actual navies of the various sultans and beys, but those people were acting in ways a trifle independently of the Sultan of the Golden Porte (that is to say the theoretical head of the Ottoman Empire).

The corsairs of the Spanish Main were semi-tolerated, but not legitimate (and were occasionally repressed as needed for European politics).

So, yes, in french, corsair = privateer, in English, not so much.

jim
jim
8 years ago

Yes, Teh Conspiracy ISREAL! This story has only been on ALL the major networks from Day One – a most devious form of soft-pedalling indeed from the Illuminati MSM!

Surely a great philosopher like “Mr. Stinkybutt” will also have an equally airtight explanation handy when they start investigating Cain’s illegal sources of funding – because nothing spells “electoral slam-dunk” quite like indictments on felony charges. How this new development will sabotage Ron Paul eludes me, but then I’m not a genius of the same calibre as “Mr. Stinkybutt.”

cynickal
cynickal
8 years ago

I can’t avoid noticing that there is no discussion of at least two cold blooded premeditated murders, committed on Presidential order, of American citizens (solely because of their religion and nationality??) without any shred of due process, any shadow of trail by jury, or any indictment or charges!

Probably because Pecunuim has handed your ass to you too many times for you to bother reading his responses to that very question.
Probably also due to the fact we’re discussing how Mr. “Shring the Governemnt until it’s small enou to fit into a woman’s uterus,” which would be on-topic rather than “A number of the existing and continuations of previous administration policies bother me, but they’re a fuck ton better than a neo-feudalist oligarchy.”

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
8 years ago

>>Yes, Teh Conspiracy ISREAL!

Favorite. Snarky. Anti. Right-wing. Meme. Ever.

Sasquatch ISRAEL!

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

There is an awful lot of noise concerning the issue of Ron Paul’s electability, since obviously he IS electable, or the efforts to silence him and his message would not need to be so frantic on the part of the mainstream noisemedia

Okay, so like I agree they aren’t spending a lot of time talking about him? But that’s not really silencing tactics, I think, nor does it indicate his secret power or whatever. People also spent a lot of time talking about Trump’s “electability” … and then ignored him once it was clear that wouldn’t pan out, but not because of any legitimate threat. :p

(Slightly unrelated question — do Libertarians vote? Ever?)

Sharculese
8 years ago

yeah, not giving airtime to a total clown isnt really silencing, its common sense

David K. Meller
David K. Meller
8 years ago

Pecunium has made a good many interesting responses to various posters on manboobz.com, (including myself) but I have to admit that “handing me my ass” isn;t among them!

Pecunium takes a few straw men discussing me (or any other critic or opponent of feminuttery on this blog, grabbing what amounts to a sentence or two of a post written several months ago, then stretching its meaning, wholly ignoring or denying my response or corrections to his posts, then throws a non sequitor or two in (sometimes his own, sometimes, (like my “slavery for women” or even more farfetched, my alleged and imagined eagerness for the “global extermination for women”) cited by him ad nauseum dozens of times, although I explained why that is my most farfetched scneario of likely male response to feminist domination of the world!

He may, for all that I know, be the LUCKIEST man who ever lived; surviving frontline combat support work in a unit full of women during his stint in the Army, and then, in a later post, surviving a time in an American urban ghetto!! If I had that kind of luck, I would play the lotto–that kind of good fortune has won millions of $$$$ for other spectacularly LUCKY people, but I’m, not telling anybody what to do, least of all not gambling! At any rate, his comments about me and my posts are–and always have been quite wide of the mark, and remain so. I daresay that Pecunium’s posts tell us more about him than they do about me. At any rate, they hand nobody “their ass”!

Pecunium is certiainly an interesting poster on manboobz, certainly rather above rather than below the average intelligence of manboobzers (or internet particiapants generally, I suspect) but any talk of his even debating me here, much less refuting me, is wildly overdrawn.

Skyal
Skyal
8 years ago

The FDA (& CDC) are far too entwined with the corporations they’re supposed to regulate and because of that they are definitely not doing their jobs as well as they should be. In addition, the FDA really doesn’t have enough power to do the job they’re supposed to be doing. The solution is more regulation and rules (especially regarding what jobs people in those agencies can take after they leave) not going back to letting corporations do whatever the heck they want.

The big problem is a lot of other countries’ regulatory bodies tend to follow their lead, which means when the make a bad decision (often because of too much influence from the companies they’re supposed to be policing), it can be a huge problem world wide. I’m just grateful my gov’t made it’s own decisions about bovine growth hormones & PBA in baby items (now if they’d just get off their butts & get the PBA out of everything else).

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

I don’t know where you live Skyal, but I get the impression that some non-US governments oppose the decisions of the FDA and/or CDC on political or economic grounds, rather than scientific grounds. Some countries freaked right out about GMOs and banned them despite none of the science suggesting that they would be harmful, because they liked rejecting these American products (safety of said products aside.) Obviously I’m not saying there aren’t good reasons for governments to differ with the US on trade/etc. but it’s not exactly because the FDA is letting dangerous products slip through that other organizations are catching.

Ami Angelwings
8 years ago

Pecunium has made a good many interesting responses to various posters on manboobz.com, (including myself) but I have to admit that “handing me my ass” isn;t among them!

Are you sure? o:

Pecunium takes a few straw men discussing me (or any other critic or opponent of feminuttery on this blog, grabbing what amounts to a sentence or two of a post written several months ago, then stretching its meaning, wholly ignoring or denying my response or corrections to his posts, then throws a non sequitor or two in (sometimes his own, sometimes, (like my “slavery for women” or even more farfetched, my alleged and imagined eagerness for the “global extermination for women”) cited by him ad nauseum dozens of times, although I explained why that is my most farfetched scneario of likely male response to feminist domination of the world!

Okay, then you tell us what you mean :3 Clearly since you don’t mean what you wrote, and the words that ppl read, perhaps you should clarify! 😀

It’s easy to say “HE SAYS STUFF I DON’T MEAN” xD What DO you mean? 😀

Ami Angelwings
8 years ago

He may, for all that I know, be the LUCKIEST man who ever lived; surviving frontline combat support work in a unit full of women during his stint in the Army,

What are your experiences in combat with women that make you think that he requires luck? o:

zhinxy
8 years ago

Blackbloc – I AM registered on the forums, though this is going to be a busy month for me. I’d love to talk politics with you, too. Start a thread, or whatever, I’ll come in whenever I can!

“what gendered pronouns (if any ) would you like to be used in reference to you, and how would you self-identify your political philosophy?”

“She” and “her,” and that was the easy part… heh. Let’s see… I identify as a left-libertarian market anarchist, and don’t precisely reject either “libertarian socialist” or “anarcho-capitalist” – a term I still have some affection for, even as “free market anti-capitalism” increasingly becomes the slogan of my “team.” I’m very close to adopting the “mutualist” label, but my precise theory of property is currently in flux. I tend to use either just “libertarian” or “anarchist” in everyday conversation.

Bagelsan. (Slightly unrelated question — do Libertarians vote? Ever?)

Some do and see no problem with it. Some have a moral problem with participating in electoral politics. Some of us vote defensively, despite conceding there are serious moral issues involved for a non-statist (raises hand). The voting issue is one of many divisive libertarian screeching points that causes bloody, screamy non-agressive fights.

zhinxy
8 years ago

P.S. – Meller, did you ever read Roderick Long on feminism? Do you have an answer for me on missing my point with the Rothbard quote? On the libertarian ethical issues with gold mining? Please get back to me.

Also, you seem to really want a “Bravest and Smartestest Libertarian fighting The Good Fight” badge. I think they stopped giving those out in the Harry Browne era. You might be able to pick one up on ebay.

Hershele Ostropoler
8 years ago

Myoo:

Well, NWO, from what I gathered in a superficial search, diabetes rates seem to be going up, but cancer rates are going down. I’m not sure about “pretty much every disease/ailment” , because that is a lot of diseases/ailments, many of which are viral, bacterial, genetic, or otherwise outside the scope of what the FDA could do to prevent them.

Also, disease rates are zero-sum related in such a way that if we reduce or eliminate Fatal Illness A, some of the people who would have gotten it get Fatal Illness B who would not have otherwise.

Bagelsan:

OWLslave does make a good point; back when little babies died of tainted milk and starvation (or starvation thanks to their diabetes) there were that many fewer people growing old enough to get cancer…

Exactly. That’s why I never know how to interpret “X is the leading cause of death”: there’ll always be causes of death, and one will always be on top.

Pecunium
8 years ago

Meller: re you ass…. the thing is, you aren’t the judge of ass handing. The audience is.

As to this farrago: He may, for all that I know, be the LUCKIEST man who ever lived; surviving frontline combat support work in a unit full of women during his stint in the Army, and then, in a later post, surviving a time in an American urban ghetto!! If I had that kind of luck, I would play the lotto–that kind of good fortune has won millions of $$$$ for other spectacularly LUCKY people, but I’m, not telling anybody what to do, least of all not gambling! At any rate, his comments about me and my posts are–and always have been quite wide of the mark, and remain so. I daresay that Pecunium’s posts tell us more about him than they do about me. At any rate, they hand nobody “their ass”!

It is an almost clever attempt to paint me a liar.

I suggest you look at the timelines. I’ve lived in dangerous parts of town, off and on, since moving to East LA in 1975. In 1982 I moved to a suburb, which was, in theory, safer. That’s the only time I’ve ever been mugged. In 2009 I moved to E. Palo Alto (look it it up for crime stats).

But my good fortune wasn’t so much luck, as it was that the things you believe about people, and risk, and what is/isn’t dangerous, are false. It’s not being in a poor part of town that makes one vulnerable, it’s being out of place. That’s why folks who get lost, or, “go into the wrong” part of town get robbed. They stand out.

As to the combat zone. You admit you don’t know anything about it. Here’s the secret…. everyone who gets out of combat alive is lucky bastard. Everyone who gets out of it in one piece is a lucky bastard.

Everyone who gets out with only minor wounds, is a lucky bastard. Combat zones are mostly luck. Stick your head up in the wrong place, buy a farm. Ride in the wrong seat of the vehcicle today, buy a farm. Take a shit when the mortars start to fall, buy a farm.

Some things (like not sticking your head up in the same place twice, or wearing your body armor to the shitter) can increase the odds, if you get unlucky, but it’s all about luck.

Soldiers are fatalistic, because, when all is said and done, it’s all luck and every one of us was a walking corpse, from the day we got their, to the day we were given our life back by rotating home.

Butgo ahead, claim a victory. It doesn’t matter. Because the big win, the one that matters, is the one you are losing. There won’t be a repression. There will never be a fluffy compliant woman for everyone.

They do exist you know. You can go to the Gorean lifestyle websites and see other men, living the life you want. Somehow, however, it seems you fail even at that. Even when there is proof that women who want what you want exist… they don’t want you.

(p.s. care to acutally answer the points, re things like the FDA, and that you are saying the fox is a good guard for the henhouse, because he has an interest in not killing all the chickens?)

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

@zhinxy: I was just wondering because it seems like that would make electing a libertarian president really difficult if he’s primarily appealing to hardcore libertarian types, some of whom are morally opposed to voting. :p