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Return to Lesbos: Are lesbians the only good women?

The other day we met some Men Going Their Own Way who are so baffled by lesbianism that they simply refuse to believe that lesbians actually exist. But not all MGTOWers hold this position. Indeed, one new visitor to MGTOWforums.com, a guy calling himself Chainsaw King, has a rather different take: Lesbians not only exist, he argues; they are in his opinion “the only good women.” Let’s hear him out:

Yes, I acknowledge the existence of Roise O’Donnell, Ellen DeGeneres, and whatever other celebrity lesbian you hate. …

But it would be foolish to judge all lesbians based on the evil that is Ellen.

I’m sort of involved with the gay community, which is something I reccomend to the people here if you have no problem with them. … Anyway, because of that I’m also friends with a lot of lesbians … Their personalities are likeable – and they show signs of empathy and intellect, to mention the least.

That sound you hear is a thousand tiny MGTOW heads exploding.

Yeah, there are some fat or butch loud whores and “bisexuals” who act like the typical woman. But I’m not even sure if they’re really lesbian; just man haters or something. Ignore them.

I’m not just saying this because I’m pro-gay or anything. I honestly couldn’t give a shit. It’s really remarkable; like if I had no exposure to lesbians and I read this post, I’d probably class it as bullshit. Meet some for yourself to prove it.

As you can imagine, this argument did not go over very well with most of the regulars. (The thread is short; I’m not going to bother linking to individual comments.)

Forum moderator MrLahey responded bluntly:

Being a lesbian removes the only incentive I’d ever have to interact with her. Catch 22 ? 😛

Goldenfetus, meanwhile, reiterated the “lesbians don’t exist” theory we examined the other day:

I’m not even sure I believe in lesbians. I have the vague impression it’s just a phase of man-hating or penis-envy-revenge that most women outgrow. The only one I know is a cousin who was always posting lesbo crap on Facebook when I still used it. She was more accurately ‘lesbian until graduation’ than full-blown, but still far from what you describe. The few others I have been exposed to were c****. Maybe I’ll accept this challenge to meet some in the wild, but I don’t know where, exactly, to begin.

Goldenfetus, even though I’m a straight dude I think in this one instance I can speak for the lesbians of the world when I say: Don’t bother to try to meet any actual lesbians. Just continue imagining that they don’t exist, and they will continue to imagine that you don’t exist, and everyone will be happy.

Most of the other commenters, while not denying the very existence of lesbians, were simply baffled by the notion that lesbians could possibly be decent human beings. “I thought lesbians usually hate men even more than straight women do,” Truyardy wondered. “I thought lesbians make up a large portion of the feminazi community.”

shade47, previously on record as a Lesbian Denier, seems to have changed his mind on this point. But he still doesn’t seem to fully understand the concept of lesbianism:

I’m calling big time bullshit on the origional poster. Awalt [All Women Are Like That] goes for lesbos too. Why hang out with a cool lesbo when you can safely hang out with a normal cool male friend. women are women noatter what is politically correct and if you and your super cool lesbo pal get really drunk one night and fuck it is exponentially more likely she will make a false accusation against you to save face… Never will happen with male friends.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure that thing with the “super cool lesbo pal” is never gonna happen either.

Womanhater offered the most ingenious MGTOWer solution to the Lesbian Problem: He managed to express his deep hatred of lesbians –while simultaneously arguing that they (or at least 90% of them) don’t really exist. Let’s see how he pulled this off:

Dykes are women. That really is all that should need to be said.

I find that in my experience 90-95% of dykes are man-haters. There are indeed that delightful 5-10% that are just wired to like twat, but the other 90-95% are lesbo because they are either too hateful, broken, envious, whatever to sustain a relationship with a man. …

[N]o matter how you slice it, a dyke has 2 X chromosomes, and is therefore firmly beneath the AWALT [All Women Are Like That] umbrella in my book.

And that was pretty much the final word on that subject. Chainsaw King doesn’t seem to have returned to the thread to see the mess he’s created. Or maybe he saw it and fled in horror and disgust.

There were, however, a few other commenters who used the thread as an opportunity to vent their hatred not of lesbians but of gay men – or at least the “flamboyant” kind. I think you may be able to guess their main objection. Sam I Am was the most, er, eloquent of the bunch:

Flambuoyant gay men are just…. abnormal. They get really fucking annoying really quickly…

They are men, but they’re acting like bitches… like, on fucking purpose. That’s abnormal and annoying just like … I dunno.. a person who just talks too fucking much. Two — you can’t make up your mind whether you’re more annoyed at the abnormality of men acting and talking like women, or at the feeling that you’re just around a bunch of women, period.

I don’t think MGTOWers will be invited to march in any Pride Parades any time soon.

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BlackBloc
BlackBloc
13 years ago

>>As I recall Andrea Dworkin is a prominent example of a person who thinks this.

This is a common misreading of Dworkin. Dworkin posits that *to the patriarchy*, all heterosexual sex is rape, because the patriarchy does not consider consent as significant. The self-evidence of that statement is proven every time an MRA opens his mouth to speak about sex or rape (like, for instance, their continual cluelessness about where the line between the two ought to be drawn).

Brandon
Brandon
13 years ago

@HellKell: It’s funny that you only got that out of the video. You completely missed his point about men living lives of “quiet desperation” and “anesthetizing themselves with pornography and sports”.

@Viscaria: I need photos to make any determination.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
13 years ago

Oh, you know–the tropes about feelings, commitment, etc. being “women” things.

According to Maher, caring about children is a woman thing, too. I’ve never seen that trope before. I thought caring about children was a decent human being thing.

Raoul
Raoul
13 years ago

AWALT [All Women Are Like That]?

Is that the adult auxiliary of GROSS [Get Rid Of Slimy girlS]?

katz
13 years ago

And now we’re supposed to be gleaning philosophical gems out of Bill Maher?

Brandon
Brandon
13 years ago

@Katz: Well, if you can do better…then enlighten us with your worldly wisdom.

Viscaria
Viscaria
13 years ago

Before you didn’t want to touch me, now you’re not sure? Why must you toy with my emotions so? Un-cry these tears…

Seriously, I’m not interested in turning this into the Brandon & Viscaria show, so if you have any other musings on whether or not I fit your criteria for fuckability I’m going to leave them alone.

katz
13 years ago

You think Bill Maher is the apex of wisdom?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
13 years ago

Notice how Chainsaw King goes out and spends time with the gay community… and comes back thinking “huh, they aren’t so bad.”

Kinda makes you wonder… if MRAs ever spent time with women, or even just lesbians, how fast their attitude would change. You can already tell how much of a difference it makes when gay men have become involved in the MRM as well.

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

Again, Brandon, tired fucking trope. And if they are, whose fault is that? Besides, I’ve seen that bit before and didn’t find it funny. It plays on too many assumptions, and you know what they say about those: make them and you’re some ass named Brandon.

Katz: Apparently we are.

Amphitrite
Amphitrite
13 years ago

Rabbit, Ray:

“Actually, by that logic, wouldn’t all interracial sex between a white person and a POC (het or otherwise) also be considered rape, because, well, there’s a power imbalance between white people and people of color?”

You wouldn’t believe the riffs on this that I’ve heard from people being serious. People can never seem to decide if I married my husband to take advantage of him (me blonde/Caucasian, him African-American – and a few years younger than me) or if he is taking advantage of me (me putting him through law school, him doing the whole “trophy” pigmentation mate idiocy).

More rarely than those reactions, we get judged by our actual relationship.

I’ve been fortunate to have known people of most orientations, pigmentations, and philosophies. The vast majority have been “good people.” Who cares what they walk around in?

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
13 years ago

There are way funnier clips of Maher. I mean, I personally run hot and cold on the guy but this particular clip is pretty trite.

Brandon, do you think that men really live lives of quiet desperation? All men? Do women as well? Because I find that, of those people living lives of quiet desperation, there’s a pretty even split between the genders.

Brandon
Brandon
13 years ago

@Viscaria: So no coffee? Bummer. I really needed plans for tomorrow night.

@Katz: Not really.

Holly Pervocracy
13 years ago

PONIES!

katz
13 years ago

Brandon: So you don’t think Bill Maher is very smart/wise…but you can’t do better…

Actually, you know what? This makes perfect sense.

Ray Percival
13 years ago

BlackBlok,

Thanks for the explanation.

Amphitrite,

Gah. Yeah. That shit has to get old pretty damned quickly.

At the end of the day. This. A million times this.

“I’ve been fortunate to have known people of most orientations, pigmentations, and philosophies. The vast majority have been “good people.” Who cares what they walk around in?”

Brandon
Brandon
13 years ago

@Katz: Bill Maher has some good points about things and some bad points on others. The same is said about everyone else. From celebrities to professors to my own friends. I don’t always agree with my friends, but I don’t think they are morons when we disagree. There are a lot of scenarios in life that don’t have one right answer and multiple POV are just as valid.

Alyssa Sweet
13 years ago

Bill Maher is the prime example of someone who gets many things right but almost never gets women’s issues right. at all. in fact he’s a douchebag really. and he did a tour with anne coulter. really? fuck that guy i say i’m sure there’s someone else out there that could make his good points without being an asshole to women and perhaps being less of a “fame-whore” (look! the word whore used where someone lowers themselves to make money not just a woman that likes to have sex. i don’t really condone use of the word i can’t think of a better one right now though). that said i do still watch his show sometimes.

ithiliana
13 years ago

@Nobinyanu: men really live lives of quiet desperation

Well, not the MRA ones who post at great length on manboobz!

They’re living lives of huge walls o’ text, unfunny jokes, and video clips desperation.

I’d love for them to go suffer silently for a while, but they never do.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
13 years ago

@ithiliana: I must concede the point:

Well, not the MRA ones who post at great length on manboobz!

Quite a bit of their desperation is positively ear-splitting.

Alyssa Sweet
13 years ago

@Nobinyanu: men really live lives of quiet desperation

oh wow and that NEVER happens to women and is totally feminisms fault! Many people live quiet lives of desperation, i’d say most people, i find liberation from gender roles to be a great way to counter that desperation.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
13 years ago

Alyssa Sweet, that was my point. There are people who do live lives of quiet desperation but that’s hardly determined by gender. That’s one of the things that makes Maher’s bit in the clip Brandon posted so trite.

KathleenB
KathleenB
13 years ago

Brandon: I laugh a lot. At my husband’s puns. At my gaming group’s jokes. At the 2000 things Mr Welch is no longer allowed to do in an rpg. At Eddie Izzard and Monty Python and the difference between mauve and red alerts.

I don’t laugh at sexist douchenozzles. It’s not that I’m lacking in humor, it’s that what you’re posting is lacking in humor.

Lauralot
Lauralot
13 years ago

I’m sure Ashley loves sexist douchenozzles, right?

Alyssa Sweet
13 years ago

people live quiet lives of desperation regardless of gender, very true. doesn’t mean sexism doesn’t exist though. i didn’t watch the clip is it the one where he complains about the “pussyfication” of America though? cause i’ve seen that before and it’s not funny and not helping anyone. If believe that is the same one with the “we care more about children than people!”. I’ve seen it, it’s not funny or smart it’s missing the point.

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