Pop Quiz: Who said the following?
“The historian can peg the point where a society begins its sharpest decline at the instant when women begin to take part, on an equal footing with men, in political and business affairs; since this means that the men are decadent and the women are no longer women.”
- Oswald Spengler
- David K. Meller
- L. Ron Hubbard
- [email protected]
ANSWER: 3. Apparently L. Ron thought some Thetans were more equal than others. (Citation.) Had this been an actual David K. Meller quote, it would have been filled with more exclamation points.
there is nothing funnier than an angry internet libertarian loudly proclaiming that he, and only he, knows what the constitution means.
FEMA centers? Bwuh? Is it because it kinda sounds like female? I’m confused.
Myoo: There’s a common wingnut conspiracy theory that says the government will at some point in the future manufacture an ’emergency’ and FEMA will take over the country and ship off to death camps or trains or… somewhere else equally nasty. Gulags, maybe? In fact, I think Bachmann actually said at one point that the trains are waiting for conservatives and christians.
@KathleenB
I guess I’m glad I don’t keep up with conspiracy theories. Each one is dumber than the next one. They should at least get some decent writers to help them come up with it. Stephen King could probably come up with a good one, although it would probably end up with demonic bureaucrats devouring people. Still, it would be more plausible than what I’ve seen.
I’m a libertarian, Meller. I said so several times. 0_o
I’ll get back to you on the rest.
@Myoo and Kathleen B: one of my favorite moments in X-Files way before it went way downhill was the revelation that AHA FEMA was the secret government agency in charge of the um alien takeover plan.
Or something like that. But definitely FEMA. We rotfl at that moment in the series.
Um, I think you’re the one that can’t read xD You responded to Zhinxy’s satire of you, you didn’t respond to the serious things she said xD Also I dun think you should be mocking my reading ability when apparently you spell Ami with a y and Zhinxy with an i xD
So…. you were hoping to avoid talking about the thing you’ve been ranting here for… ever about… with the person who INTRODUCED ME TO THIS SITE? xD
*thumbs up*
Ami – Yeah, seriously, those “screamy declarative sentences” are ” cartoons ” of what I believe, but… I dont’ think the response made that much sense even given that he skipped right to the teasing.
I find it strange that Meller thinks that your feminism just distracts you from the real issues… like… helping him have a world where you have absolutely no voice xD Or at least your voice goes as far as your husband’s would xD
That brought the lulz.
So are Amy and Zhinxi are Earth-3 evil duplicates or something? xD
Okay, I’m gonna take this a little bit at a time, skip around a little, I trust he won’t mind, since he seems to sort of go with the flow… Ami, chime in whenever… It will be part manifesto, part conversation, part sporking! XD
Meller:
I believe that zhinxi believes, and I am no mindreader here, more or less what characterised the American New Left c. 1966,
Interesting as the culture wars of the sixties and seventies are to me, from a historical perspective…
For the most part I believe in what characterizes the American Libertarian Left, circa 2011. You’re kind of… Out of touch with the current trends in libertarianism, aren’t you? 😉
(And you do know that Rothbard considered himself PART of the left by the second half sixties, right?)
I was hoping that that by declining to discuss them, and the unbridgeable differences that we no doubt have there, a discussion regarding, e.g. world peace, Rothbardiana, emerging American fascism (the real McCoy now, not the silly slogans the American left has been babbling about for the last seven or eight decades), and the evaporation of the Constitution. None of these have ANYTHIING to do with feminuttery, and probably play a substantial role in distracting women from far more serious and important issues!
No, I don’t think my dignity and equality as a person, or the combatting of malignant social order that contributes to oppression, is some side issue distracting me from “important” libertarian issues. You mentioned Roderick Long. He’s a hero of mine, an exemplary libertarian and a committed feminist ally, and you should really read his fabulous Libertarianism and Feminism: Can This Marriage Be Saved co-authored with Charles Johnson.
Suffice it to say that, yes, patriarchy and the various malignant spontaneous orders contributing to the oppression of women and other marginalized groups intertwine with the state. Thick libertarianism opposes the bundle.
And, you see, you are very, very far from “the last other libertarian on earth”
I have plenty of people I LIKE to discuss all sorts of fun libertarian things with.
(Also, having cultural and political paleocon allies and dear friends of my own, having BEEN what I referred to as a “neo-paleocon” I am aware of the difference in the movements, thank you.)
dangit, the italics!
It is odd how so many of the MRAs like Meller and NWO seem to think THEY ALONE see the truth, and that being a self-identified Libertarian is this LONELY EXISTENCE xD That’s why NWO avoids you, b/c he defines himself on this board as being the libertarian vs a whole bunch of socialists/commies/Skrull/parademons… xD
Wow… Meller thinks that because Rothbard was mentioned there must be a shared fondness.
More of the delusion of received truth. It’s why he tells is to read x,y,z, even though the critical reader would see we have; and rejected it.
But it was so persuasive to him (as with Saul on the road to Damascus) he assumes to read it is to be share in his enlightenment.
More fool he.*
*hard as that me be to believe.
I KNOW! It’s like they have nothing better to do besides troll non-libertarian sites, so they can be this Voice In The Wilderness!
Well, pecunium, I do have a complex fondness for/obssession with Rothbard, he’s been a huge influence on me. It’s not entirely positive, of course, so I guess my libertarian purity is in doubt. 😉
What amuses me the most is the idea that because Mises (Who WAS brilliant, and I don’t hate him in the sense that I throw darts at a picture of his HEAD or anything!) was such a huge influence on Rothbard, to reject one is to reject the other!
See also that I do have respect for Hayek, just think he made grave mistakes in certain areas. It’s all or nothin’ for Meller! And yet somehow all AND nothing!
reposting this with the italics fixed, because confusion issues may already be at a high 😉
Meller:
I believe that zhinxi believes, and I am no mindreader here, more or less what characterised the American New Left c. 1966,
Interesting as the culture wars of the sixties and seventies are to me, from a historical perspective…
For the most part I believe in what characterizes the American Libertarian Left, circa 2011. You’re kind of… Out of touch with the current trends in libertarianism, aren’t you?
(And you do know that Rothbard considered himself PART of the left by the second half of the sixties, right?)
They should get Shyamalan to direct it; at the end the twist will be that FEMA was working for the liberals all along. At which point the entire audience* will scream “we fucking knew that half an hour in, you asshole!”
*except for me; I’ll scream “why did you ruin The Last Airbender you douche!?”
(Also, I’m fairly pleased that we’ll take trains to the FEMA labor/death/feminist/indoctrination camps, because Amtrak is downright comfy and luxurious compared to flying. Ugh.)
Speaking of which, this struck me as particularly/hilariously weird:
Meller
“4) You are not a piece of jewelry? Did I say anywhere that you were? Did Rothbard?”
Okay, see, I know you like Rothbard, but it’s not like you’re Libertarianism incarnate, and can just throw him in as if you speak as one. Did you bunk together in summer camp or something?
“Where did that come from?”
That’s what I’m asking!!
” Wherever, in manboobz.com, I talk about soft, compliant, adorable, and playful women, I am contrasting my Ideal women with feminists and modern women. This is MY preference, but as we don’t know each other, it shouldn’t be of any interest to you anyway! “
Except that it is my problem insofar as you very much seem want social factors to limit my freedom and produce these “soft, compliant” women. Again, not going to fight the state and ignore social tyranny. I care because, yes, since you talk about this A LOT in the area where I do encounter you, trying to shift the subject to “But ZHINXY! DON’T YOU AGREE WITH ME ABOUT THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK!!!!!” is not going to be met with a “Dang right, freedom loving friend!”
Nor does this odd effort to dodge on your part (IN THE COMMENTS SECTION OF A GENDER ISSUES FOCUSED BLOG!) mean you’re trying to start civil conversation, as opposed to being a weasel.
Except that it is my problem insofar as you very much seem want social factors to limit my freedom and produce these “soft, compliant” women. Again, not going to fight the state and ignore social tyranny. I care because, yes, since you talk about this A LOT in the area where I do encounter you, trying to shift the subject to “But ZHINXY! DON’T YOU AGREE WITH ME ABOUT THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK!!!!!” is not going to be met with a “Dang right, freedom loving friend!”
But you both like comic books! And you wear the same brand of jeans… and you both shop at Wal-Mart! Stop focusing on petty things like whether or not Meller thinks women are intellectual pygmy mice! I BET YOU BOTH LIKE PIZZA!
I was totally going to talk about Zuko in my earlier comment about honor – he is a classic example of ‘only you can take away your honor,’ but I kinda got into a rant about how if you haven’t watched Airbender you totally should – but not the movie, that was shit on a stick, and I kinda figured it wasn’t really going to advance my point about honor and deleted it.
In fact, I mentioned the my comment to MrB, and his reply was (a direct quote, i swear): “Heed the lesson of Zuko.” After I deleted my rant. It’s sometimes a bit scary how in sync we are…
Seriously, it’s worth the effort to hunt up The Last Airbender, it’s not often you see mature discussions of honor and morality in a kid’s show.
KathleenB “Seriously, it’s worth the effort to hunt up The Last Airbender, it’s not often you see mature discussions of honor and morality in a kid’s show.”
Everybody should watch Avatar: The Last Airbender all the time!
Man, I would way rather go watch Avatar than keep trying to respond to Meller. But I guess I’m in for a penny…
Back to the point that my serious post to Meller was skipped in favor of the declarative sentences that were more a parody. Here’s the “main point” of that part again:
….
And ah! Rothbard!
Rothbard, Rothbard, Rothbard. Such a huge influence on me, no matter how many disagreements I have with him.
Since you’ve given me his mini-bio, I’m sure you know about the strange bedfellow alliances he made with anti-war Marxists at Brooklyn Polytechnic, about the heyday of the journal Left and Right, about his harsh realization that he and other libertarians
had come to the disastrous conclusion:
“first, that conservatives, no matter how divergent, were our “natural” allies, and second,
hat there was little real difference between liberals and Communists. Why not then fuzz
the truth a bit and use the anti-Communist bludgeon to hit at the liberals, especially since
the liberals had become entrenched in power and were running the country? There was a temptation that few of us could resist”
Read that again, and take it to heart. For it is one of the Great Lessons of Murray…
That it was and is utterly fucking unproductive, dishonest, and
stupid for libertarians to cling to the right, and
throw cries of Stalinism at the left in a way that
blocks out reality and any hope of common cause.
The lesson you seem to have missed.
–
That was my point, Meller. That in this moment in time – perhaps even more so than when Rothbard made that point, since *the Cold War is over,* and it is nearly impossible to find any in the “non-libertarian” American Left who would say that the Soviet system
was a good thing – it is ridiculous and unproductive for libertarians to scream bloody murder about State Communism and it’s evils every time we encounter them.
I should get this on a rubber stamp and jam it into my brother in law’s forehead every time he bitches about me being a ‘hippie commie liberal‘. I’m not really a hippie, I am, if anything a socialist, and yeah, I’m a liberal. That’s his constant refrain: liberal = commie, and it’s getting into my sister’s thinking.
Trying to unscramble the above examples of womanthink is almost as difficult as solving rubik’s cube (blinfolded), and for that reason, I may be excused for a few mistakes along the way, but…
Firstly, Rothbard was discussing the Korean War period, when the “old right” was dying out when he made the statement you think was a cutoff from the left for all time. His later association with elements of the new left (briefly outlined above (October 26, 2011 @1:15pm/ fifth paragraph, addressed to zhinxi) cited both friendly leftists from the 1930’s and ’40s and much later, leftists like Oglesby, Goodman, Williams et al, who agreed with him–and other libertarians regarding State authoritarianism, Publik Skoolz,war and imperialism, and civil liberties. He, and I both agree that these are worthwhile goals to have in common, and are willing to work with leftists on issues that WE SHARE IN COMMON.
We will happily work today with the John Birch Society or the Ron Paul campaign to establish sound and honest money, audit, and then abolish the FED, and balance the Federal government’s budget while limiting it to specifically enumerated powers and functions.
No, Pecunium, Meller has no problem with this, it is certainly NOT an “all-or-nothing” outlook which you allege, and indeed, to the contrary, I think that this is a perfectly normal and civilized way that people conduct their affairs: agreeing with each other on certain points, and disagreeing with each other on others. If, anything, I am doing this better than you, Amy Angelwings, Zhinxi, and other manboobzers (or ‘womanboobzers?’) here!
I never said, and would never presume to even think that I was Murray Rothbard, or libertarianism incarnate!!
He was so far above me in any libertarian pantheon that I couldn’t shine his shoes! I believe that I even said something like that in a previous post. He probably did more to advance liberty, understanding of the free-market, private property, self responsibility type of society that I admire in any one day of his life than I have done in my entire lifetime!
When he wrote that statement about conservatives being their natural allies, it was an altogether TRUE appraisal of American life and politics for the decade before 1950! From the time the Wehrmacht attacked the USSR on June 22, 1941 to (at least) Churchill’s “Iron Curtain” speech some seven years later, Communists did everything possible to discredit, slander, boycott, and otherwise cripple the antiwar/civil liberties/Cnstitutionalist rightwing (Rothbard and his colleagues and friends during those years), Given the emotional intensity that reference to a small witticism uttered by Joe McCarthy (more than half century ago!) on a small internet blog generated among leftists today (who aren’t even communists, according to you) The least you people could have in some feeling of human empathy for the hatred, frustration, and anger that Rothbard et al. must have felt at their contemporary New Deal left for their treachery and Betrayal before and during WWII! He discusses this, and why when the HUAC, the FBI, and later Joe McCarthy offered them a chance to “get even”, they jumped at the chance. If you would have kept on reading, zhinxi, you would have found that later on, when the right resumed and intensified its warmongering, Rothbard was the first one to abandon them, bag and baggage, to the extent of even campaigning AGAINST GOLDWATER in 1964! He still found LBJ and odious choice, appalled at the Tonkin “incident” in October ’64, and the increased involvement in Indochina, along with COINTELPRO and the other acts of war against the civil liberties of American citizens, where he then, lacking ANY support from the Right (except for the John Birch Society, believe it or not), he sought , and found, allies among some of the New Left!
Having said that, I seem to recall that it was you people who, upon my “…If it looks like a duck…” written in regard to a poster’s query about how I ascertained “feminism”, started squalling a bloody blue streak about how I was a “fan of McCarthyism”, supported redbaiting and so on! I would have told youall to take a tranquilizer or some midol, and go back to bed until you felt better, but I tried that before, and got my head handed to me! I don’t even think that I thought about McCarthy until the witticism presented itself, still less the cold war (which I regarded as largely phony anyway, and YOUR going nuts about Joe M, and this, is what created this ruckus, not anything that I may have said!
When I saw what sounded like a kindred spirit ( a shared interest in Murray Rothbard) I Responded in a warm and friendly way. This was especially surprising on this blog, when one considers that he was no fan of feminism (see his charming little essay, written, I believe, in 1971, when the whole mess was getting started, anticipating with unerring accuracy some 80% of the hell that we were all going to experience if this bunch of kooks get their way!
The name of the essay, reprinted in his anthology Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature and Other Essays, is “The Great Women’s Lib Issue, Setting it Straight.
Enjoy!
I certainly will read the book that you recommeded by Roderick Long.I don’t know if I will agree with him, but a libertarian version of feminism is certainly worth a look-see! The feminism that I am familiar with has a pronounced collectivist, socialist–even Marxist–odor and flavor to it, and an alternative that can argue that some sort of equality–as feminists understand it–can emerge without the meddlesome state would be worth a very thorough second look! At the very least, I know that in Rothbardland–or Roderickland (?)–Feminism won’t be shoved down my throat and up my arse for the past 40 or so years, all the time the way it is today!
Oh my stars, language!